and life you love.

Today you are in for such a treat because we have one of my favorite writers of all

time on the show.

Cheryl Strayed is the author of the number one New York Times bestseller Wild, Tiny Beautiful

Things, Brave Enough, and Torch.

Her books have been translated into 40 languages.

Wild was the first selection for Oprah’s Book Club 2.0 and made into an Oscar nominated

film.

Cheryl’s essays have been published in The Best American Essays, the New York Times,

The Washington Post Magazine, Vogue, Salon, The Sun, Tin House, and elsewhere.

She’s the co-host of the Dear Sugar radio podcast and lives in Portland, Oregon.

Cheryl, thank you so much for being here.

Thank you for having me, I’m thrilled.

Yes.

So when we met at Super Soul Sessions, I was just…

Oprah introduced us.

Yes, which is a big deal.

Yeah, it’s a nice start for us.

And I knew having you on MarieTV was going to be just exciting.

So let’s take it back, way back.

You didn't grow up in a household of writers.

No, I didn't.

How early did you know that you wanted to be a writer?

Very early.

I mean, soon after I learned how to read, when I was about six.

I… you know, I fell in love with books, but in particular I had one experience that

I read this one book, it was a chapbook of little poems.

There were watercolor pictures.

It was the 70s and so everyone was into these little sort of watercolor chapbooks.

And each little poem described one aspect of the beauty of nature.

And I remember very distinctly it was the first epiphany of my life that I just was

so struck, so pierced, truly, by the beauty that somebody could create simply by words

on the page.

You know, I appreciated those pictures, but it was the words that transported me.

And, you know, it was one of those very early ideas.

I certainly at that point didn't think, “This means I want to be a writer.”

But as I grew up and became a writer I very much remember that as the moment that I became

aware of this thing that I can only describe as a calling.

Did you ever think to yourself, like in your teenage years, oh, I could potentially do

another career?

Or was something in your heart always writer?

You know, what I thought is that I absolutely had to do another career.

When I was growing up, I didn't have any idea that I could actually make a living off of

writing books and I don't know exactly how to explain that except to say that even though

I loved literature, I felt that the people who made those books were people who were

so distant from who I was.

Many of them, you know, many of those books that I was assigned in high school, just like

you, you know, they were by dead white men, essentially.

They were created somewhere in a land, in a time far off.

And so I never imagined that I would grow up and be able to make my living that way.

It was always the thing I would do because I was called to do it, because I was passionate

about doing it.

And then I would earn my living in some other way.

And I remember when I was in high school I was always a feminist and I was one of, you

know, I subscribed to Ms. magazine.

And I remember at one point reading this story that was about Joyce Carol Oates and I was

so struck by it because I was like, wow, there’s a woman, she’s living among us, and she’s

writing books.

I’d never heard of Joyce Carol Oates, but I was fascinated by this profile of her.

And it was the first glimmer of an idea that I had maybe I could be a writer.

And then when I went to college and started to take English classes and some of my professors

were teachers and authors and, you know, and really they opened that door for me of possibility.

Isn’t that interesting?

That I think for all of us and for so many women too, it’s like we need to see someone

do it.

Absolutely.

Modeling, right?

I mean, I think that’s why, you know, it was so powerful when Barack Obama was elected

president.

We suddenly all became aware of, you know, not only the historic moment of that, but

what that would mean to children of color all over the world to see him become the president.

And, you know, I think the same thing with Hillary Clinton.

I think that those things are really powerful in big and small ways.

I mean, you know, I’m not being hyperbolic when I say that I didn’t…

I couldn’t imagine what was possible until I could see that somebody else had done it.

Let’s talk about the realities of making a living writing.

So many people in our audience are creatives, they’re aspiring creatives.

Whether it is writing books or painting or starting their own business.

Take me back.

How did you earn a living in the early days?

What were you doing?

I did a bunch of different things.

So I… really when I graduated from college I was a double major in English, creative

writing, and women’s studies.

And I knew that I wanted to dedicate myself to writing.

I knew that this was going to be a years long apprenticeship.

It wasn't something…

I never bought into this false notion that, like, I’ll just sit down and, you know,

spend the next 6 months writing a book and then that’s, you know, then I’ll be done.

I knew that it was going to be a long slog.

And so I decided to try to find work that would support me in my writing rather than

contradict those goals.

And for me that was becoming a waitress, because it was a job that I could walk in, do the

work, and do honest work, but not take it home with me.

You know?

And I knew that I feared that if I got a job, you know, that was in some ways fulfilling,

like I’d also worked as a newspaper reporter for a brief time in college and I loved it.

And I was writing and, you know, so I was sort of filling that need but I wasn’t doing

the real work that I wanted to do.

So I avoided sort of that work in my field, if you will, for a good… the better part

of a decade.

And then, you know, I tired of waiting tables.

It made me feel diminished and sad.

But, you know, it was a great way to earn a living for a while.

And I would write when I wasn’t waiting tables and I would go back to work.

But then I thought, you know, I need to do some more meaningful work.

And I did a number of different things.

I started, you know, teaching writing because I’d started to publish a little bit.

I started also writing pieces for magazines because it was a way in some ways to begin

to feel like I was a real writer to get published.

One of the early decisions I made was to not focus on getting published, but to rather

focus on my craft, which I think was a very wise one.

But there did come a time that it was time to start reaching out.

I think that that’s such an important distinction.

So many people are in such a rush to monetize whatever the thing is that they are truly

passionate about, that they feel is their art.

And I don't think that I’ve ever heard anyone articulate, you know, I deliberately held

back and wanted to work on my craft.

And how did that feel for you?

Was it exciting to be able to just say I’m not gonna pressure myself to get this out

into the world?

Well, you know, so much about creative work and certainly about writing is, you know,

the way you survive is by, you know, running along at the speed of your own engine.

It’s not going to be because somebody from out here validated you.

Like, it really… writing is very much generated from within.

I think any kind of art making or any kind of creative work, you have to ultimately be

doing it because you feel driven to do it, you feel passionate about doing it.

You… you’re engaged with something that feels important to you in your life.

And certainly in the arts what I can say is if what you’re going to rely on is that

exterior validation, you’re just not gonna… you’re not going to get it.

You’re not gonna last long.

And so, you know, that decision was about learning, really learning how to keep faith

with my vision or my dream or my work.

And then, you know, once that became like actually that inner strength is what I drew

on to compel me every day forward through another day of trying to write something that

meant something to someone else, you know, once I really developed that muscle within

then when I did go into the world and people said nice things about my work, it was thrilling,

it was beautiful, but it wasn’t the thing that made me keep writing.

And I think, you know, you’re so right about this.

I teach writing sometimes, or I certainly talk to a lot of people on airplanes and so

forth.

How do I write a book?

You know, what's your advice?

And the advice is always kind of depressing to people because the absolute only advice

I really truly have for somebody who wants a life as a writer is write.

Write.

And keep writing, and keep writing and see what happens.

It’s not about, like, go to this party or go to this conference.

And those things come up along the way.

Like, I do think at a certain point it’s important to start to meet people, meet your

tribe, meet people who are doing what you’re doing, put yourself out there.

I think the most important thing is to learn how to make a home with the work that you’re

doing, because then you have something to offer the world.

You know, a lot of people want to make that offering before they’ve created anything.

Yeah.

Let’s talk about your rituals because I’m always fascinated by people who create any

kind of art, but especially writers.

Do you and had you developed a practice of writing every day?

I’ve also read you binge write.

I’m a binge writer.

I’m not an every day writer.

Not an every… ok, so this is all so fascinating.

There’s a book that I love called The War of Art by Steven Pressfield and several other

books.

And some people that I know and they’re great writers, they do, they have this discipline,

they write every day.

So I’m curious, yeah.

Tell me about your binge writing.

Yeah.

It’s really interesting because for a long time I thought I’m a renegade.

I’m a bad writer.

I’m not a real writer because I’m not doing this thing that many times, you know,

this is the advice that writers are given.

Yeah.

If you don't write every day or most days, that means you’re not a writer.

And that’s… if that’s true, I’m not a writer then.

You know?

And what I can say to you is what’s to me really important is, I use this phrase before,

keeping the faith, which to me is connected to discipline.

To say what really is meaningful for me, the work that’s meaningful for me, is writing.

And so I’m gonna find a way to do it.

And for some people that… what works for them is every day.

Yeah.

Very… there are certain stretches of my life, times in my life, where that’s what

I did.

You know, there were many times for 3 months in a row I wrote every day.

But there are also many times for 3 months in a row I didn't write a word.

And what I’ve found is when, like, I make an appointment with myself and I don't look

at each day.

I look at the calendar ahead.

And it’s been really helpful for me actually also to decide when not to write, because

I can look sometimes at my calendar and say, “I’m gonna be really busy for the next

month,” or, “I just gave birth to a child,” or, you know, I have to work really hard at

this other project because that’s important to me too.

And then I just put the writing aside and know that I’m not going to feel bad about

it, I’m not gonna get into some sort of shame loop about I haven’t written.

I tell myself you’re not going to write now and then you’re going to write then.

And then what I do is I make good on that promise.

That’s the other piece of it.

This isn’t about being, you know, using lazy excuses.

It’s not using this methodology in order to not write.

It’s actually the opposite.

It’s saying this is when I work best or when I can work best.

One of the most moving experiences I had, you know, I give so many talks about my books,

usually about Wild or Tiny Beautiful Things that, you know, the Dear Sugar column, and

so often people, the response they have to that is about the stories they tell me about