Glad to be here. This is the last...

-thing I'm doing. -This is your last press

-for the book, like, ever? -Yes.

-Yes. -This is a good day, man.

-I don't want to talk about it ever again. -(laughter)

You-you have been on a whirlwind with this book, though,

because, I mean, like, you-you're ending it here,

but, I mean, it kicked off in a place

-few authors dream of their book ever kicking off, -Yeah.

and that was with Oprah Winfrey.

-Yeah. -I remember Oprah, like, made a video,

and she was like, "Guys, my book club is coming back."

And people were like, "Oh, what's the book?"

And she was like, "Ta-Nehisi Coates,

-Right. -The Water Dancer."

And, I mean, it's just blown up, like, from...

How did that even come about, you and Oprah and the book?

How did that come about?

Um, well, as I've said now several times, um...

-Not that I mind saying it here again. -(laughter)

No, tell us how you hate to be here, Ta-Nehisi.

Tell all these people how you hate them for being...

(laughter)

Very happy to be here. Um, so I worked on this for a long time.

-Right. -So, I worked on it for, um,

actually, it took about ten years from...

You know, we both had the same editor,

and when I finished my first book, Chris Jackson, he said,

"You should try a novel," and it finally got done.

And it's the funniest thing, because when it was done...

you-you never know who is gonna be touched or moved

-by what you're writing. -That's true. Right.

Because it was never like: oh, this clearly is a book,

you know, that Oprah Winfrey would be very interested in.

And then, um, I don't even know how you do that.

-You know what I mean? -Can I tell you?

That would be the most amount of hubris to have as a person.

If you finish writing a book, and you're like,

"This is a book Oprah Winfrey is gonna love."

Oprah book-- got it. You know?

But no. And then, um, I got a call, man.

I was actually coming back from vacation with my wife,

and I got a text message, and the text message said,

from Chris, um: "You have to be available at 10:30.

It's a very important call."

-And it was Oprah Winfrey. -Yeah. It was Oprah Winfrey.

And-and since then, it really has been a beautiful journey

for not just the book but yourself, because...

Like, a lot of people know you as-as a writer

who-who critiques and analyzes America,

its history and its present,

and how the history has affected the present,

and how people don't want to deal with that.

But the novel is a completely different world for you.

I mean, I mean, obviously, you've written comics, but...

-but this is fiction... -Right.

that is in a very real place.

You write about the character in the book,

who has... who lives in a world--

and this is what-what really intrigues me about the book is,

-you don't refer to the people in the book as slaves. -Yeah.

-This is when it's taking place, you know, -Yeah.

-in and around slavery in America, -Right.

but you're very selective about the words you use.

Why don't you call the people slaves,

and why don't you say they're slaves, and as a slave,

and you-you don't do that, why?

Well, uh, like,

for African Americans, um, particularly,

there is, um-- and one day we'll have to talk about

whether it's the same way with apartheid--

but there is a popular notion

in the mindset of what,

what I now call enslavement was.

You know? And so there's this idea of, you know, rape,

chains, whips, you know, Roots, you know.

Your name's totally-- That's what people...

And so what you have to do is, like,

you have to make it your own.

And you have to create a kind of image almost or a world.

Like, it's slavery

but it's your slavery if that makes any sense.

It's your rendition of it, um, your vision of it.

I wanted something that did not, um, exist.

And so a strong part of that, man, is, you know,

coming up with new ways to describe it.

And so to get new ways to describe it,

-you need new words, you know? -Interesting. Interesting.

Why do you choose to place it in this time?

I mean, you know, we live in a world where people might say,

"There's so many stories out there.

It feels like we always talk about slavery."

-But you chose to tell an extremely unique story -Yeah.

-in a very familiar world. -Yeah, well,

there's the big reason and the small reason.

The small reason is it's the world that I was, you know,

the period in American history I was most entranced by.

The larger reason is so much of our own culture

actually comes out of that period indirectly or directly.

So you think about, like, say, Gone With the Wind, right?

Which is, you know, what, I guess the most published,

you know, novel in American history.

Uh, you think about something like Birth of a Nation,

which is responded to a period after that but is rooted in that

and sets the table for all of American film.

You think about all of the westerns that basically

are sequels, you know, coming out of the Civil War.

There's always some, you know,

guy who fought for the Confederacy,

um, that, you know, ends up, you know,

out in the west trying to make good.

Um, and so I just wanted to go to the source of it, man.

You know I mean? I wanted to try to tell it from my perspective.

You know, doing it in a different way.

What really surprised me about the book is...

I didn't know what to expect at all.

You go, Ta-Nehisi's gonna write this book.

And then you open the first few pages and you're reading

about this guy, Hiram, and you're like, "Wait."

This is a story that seems

to be about slavery, and then it's like, no, it's not.

-It's the story of a people -Right.

who are trying to achieve something.

And he has these superpowers that he discovers.

And-And what's really interesting,

is it's not just a flight of fancy,

it's a really powerful exploration into, like,

-what your superpower may be as a person. -Right.

You know, like, how, how you talk about

how people were freedom fighters

-and what they did during that time. -Right.

Why did you choose superpowers?

Why did you choose-- Like, were you inspired by the world of--

-you know, your writing on Black Panther, etcetera. -Yeah.

Is that part of it, or was it just you trying

to create something completely different?

No, honestly, it was the other way around.

I mean, it is, I guess,

to my great benefit that...

Like, I had ten years to get it. You know what I mean?

-Yeah. -To basically learn to write a novel.

You know, I was almost wanting to say I was working.

I had ten years to learn to write a novel,

and this is the result of it.

And, so, I actually started this...

I mean, this book is older than Between the World and Me.

It's older than We Were Eight Years in Power.

It's older than "The Case for Reparations."

-Wow. -It's definitely older

than Black Panther and all of that stuff.

So I had all of that before I-I came to this.

Um, you know, I'm from Baltimore, Maryland.

Harriet Tubman was like a superhero.

She's from Maryland. You know, the way she was described,

-the things she did. -Right, right.

And, so, it didn't feel like a leap

to put that aspect in the book.

-It felt natural, you know? -Right.

Just to have, like, the Harriet Tubman vibe,

'cause in many ways, she was, you know...

Like, I like the way you've spoken about it before

where you say it's like she was teleporting people in a way.

-Yes. -Like, one minute, they were here,

-the next thing, they were gone. -Yes, exactly.

-Out of slavery, into a different world. -Exactly.

You've also done something really interesting here

that I feel was purposeful,

and that is you have centered the women in the story.

And you-you are one of the people

who tackled your critics head-on.

Some people say, "Hey, Ta-Nehisi,

"you're an amazing writer,

"but I don't see you telling many of the stories

"in and around not just women but black women.

"For the black man, you speak strong.

Black women seem to be left out."

In this book, though, you have a lead character

who has powers, who's fighting for freedom,

who's fighting an injustice system.

But the women around him seem to be part of the reason

-he can do what he does. -Yeah.

And I think, like, your responsibility as a...

as a writer is to balance two impulses.

Um, like I said, this book is older,

so all of the characters in this book are actually older

than, you know, like, uh...

whatever I may have... Nonfiction.

-Right, right, right. Yeah. -But the conception

of Between the World and Me.

Um, you have to, on the one hand,

like, legitimately hear your critics

and actually listen,

and then, at the same time, like, be strong

in what your... You know what I mean?

-Like, follow your vision. -What you're actually trying to do.

-Yeah. -You know what I mean? 'Cause you can never just,

you know, write for a crowd, but the crowd is not wrong.

Do you understand what I'm saying?

You got to, like, you got to find some sort of way

to be yourself and be the writer that you need to be, um...

without demonizing people

that may not see, you know, things the way you-you see it.

-Right, right, right. -You know? Um...

Do you think this book might make it easier

for some people to delve into the conversations

in and around slavery

because it exists in a fantastical world?

You know, sometimes people can't deal with nonfiction

'cause they're like, "Oh, I... This..." (grumbles)

Whereas when it's, you know,

when it's in a fantastical world,

there's this element of, like, "Oh, that story was great,

-and that hero was..." -Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Do you think there's a part of that

-that-that you hope it would achieve? -I do.

I mean, I think, like, you take something like The Wire, right?

The politics of David Simon are quite clear.

-He's made them quite clear. -Mm-hmm.

But there are people who do not share his politics

-who love The Wire. You know what I mean? -Right.

Um, I don't know what effect that actually has

on actual politics, you know what I mean?

So I don't know, you know, there are probably people

who could probably read this book that probably would not

agree with me on reparations and all sorts of, you know,

other things, but you know, when things are in the form of

a story, people just, they just take it differently, you know?

Let me ask you one thing before I let you go

-and-and rest, um... -Mm-hmm.

(both laughing)

No, 'cause I know, I know how strenuous a book tour can be.

I got a home-cooked meal waiting for me.

Um, yeah, man, um, I do notice, you know,