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  • -Welcome to The Daily Show. -Well, thank you.

  • And before we get into the book, I just wanted to say,

  • I honestly have met few people who have lived as much of a life

  • -as you have. -You mean I'm old.

  • (laughter)

  • No. Some people are old, but they haven't lived life.

  • -Ah. Okay, all right -They really haven't.

  • Because-because... reading through your story

  • truly fascinated me.

  • I mean, you know, you were at the forefront

  • of opposing the war in Vietnam.

  • You know, you were one of the key individuals

  • who fought for the American government to impose sanctions

  • on the apartheid government in South Africa.

  • You've been fighting for equality in America

  • for a long time.

  • You've been on the front lines,

  • and you are friend of Dr. King's family.

  • If you look at MLK Day today, and you look at how people

  • have warped his message and his image, et cetera,

  • what do you think is the biggest misconception people have

  • -about Dr. King? -The biggest misconception

  • is that Martin Luther King was a dreamer who had a dream.

  • Every time I go someplace, people get up and say,

  • "Yes, he was a dreamer, he was always dreaming."

  • Well, that's because of the speech

  • and the part that's taken out.

  • Uh, Martin Luther King believed in the right to vote.

  • The first speech he gave in Washington

  • at the Prayer Pilgrimage in 1957,

  • his coming out, as it were, in Washington,

  • was about, if we ever got the vote,

  • everything would change-- we'd have justice

  • if we just got the vote.

  • That was even after...

  • a year before, they had done the boycott,

  • -Right. -the Montgomery boycott.

  • But over the years as he evolved,

  • he saw, hey, the vote is important and we should get it,

  • and he continues to fight for it,

  • but voting by itself isn't gonna give us justice.

  • And he concluded that protest

  • is an essential ingredient of politics.

  • You see, politicians want two things.

  • They want you to vote for them, and they want to get re...

  • get elected, and they want you to vote for them

  • -so they can get reelected. -Right.

  • Those are two things they want.

  • -(laughs) -But the thing you have to want

  • is to make them do what will give you

  • justice and equality in this country,

  • and they won't do that

  • -unless you make them do it. -That's really interesting.

  • And that's where protest is involved.

  • Martin Luther King believed in nonviolence.

  • He learned about it. He believed in it.

  • He and Coretta believed in it.

  • It was at the center of their lives.

  • When I say protest

  • is an essential ingredient in politics,

  • I mean nonviolent protest.

  • And the book is about the kind of nonviolent protest

  • you can engage in which will make change.

  • It will make government officials who you elected

  • actually do what they promised they would do.

  • Isn't that unique?

  • How interesting that they would actually promise to do something

  • and even try to do it.

  • -(laughter) -You see?

  • Uh, say, you...

  • But that's what... And...

  • The other thing the book is about

  • is how every generation

  • has to make its own dent in the wall of injustice.

  • Young people, you know, have to pass it on.

  • -Mm-hmm. -All the movements that I talk about in that book

  • in which I was involved

  • and at the center of some of them...

  • It didn't happen overnight.

  • You didn't go out and have one march.

  • You didn't go out and have two marches.

  • Uh, we went on for years

  • until we were able to make change.

  • So, young people have to pick up the torch

  • and move forward with it and make their own dent.

  • It takes a long time for it to happen.

  • And Martin Luther King stood for all of that.

  • He didn't live long enough.

  • Unfortunately, his life was taken.

  • But in the time that he had with us,

  • he modeled all those things for us.

  • There was another thing he modeled,

  • which was you don't have to be perfect

  • in order to be good and to have a good message.

  • You don't have to be personally perfect

  • -in order to... -Mm-hmm.

  • Uh, what you look at is what people do in the cause

  • and what sacrifices they're willing to make.

  • And that doesn't mean that everybody should go out and die.

  • That's not what I'm talking about.

  • What I'm talking about is we worked hard

  • to end the draft, and we succeeded.

  • I can show you,

  • and if you read what's in the book,

  • you will see that we succeeded.

  • When we wanted the Americans with Disabilities Act

  • passed in the Congress, we used strategies

  • -and tactics to make it happen. -Right.

  • And what you have to do when you protest

  • is keep changing what you do.

  • Don't do the same thing over and over and over again.

  • People get tired. If you did the same thing on your show

  • every night, people would say, "Eh."

  • -(laughing) -And they won't watch you.

  • Change it up!

  • Or if you were like the-the team

  • that played, uh, Kansas City yesterday

  • and they just kept on doing the same thing.

  • And I kept saying, "Why don't you do something different?!"

  • -You see? So, uh... -(cheering and applause)

  • -So, then that's-that's really interesting. -So the box...

  • So if you want-- if you want student loans forgiven

  • so you don't have to pay off all that debt,

  • whatever it is you want,

  • organize people,

  • mobilize people to do it in a nonviolent way.

  • Put pressure on 'em.

  • You have to make politicians do stuff.

  • -Yes. Climate change. -Do you think that-- Right.

  • -Make them do it. -Do you think then our generation

  • has become complacent in thinking that a moment

  • of giant protest counts as-as the duration of protest?

  • Because in the book, you-you talk about how, for instance,

  • with the a-apartheid movement, anti-apartheid movement,

  • it took two years for you to get

  • -the American government to do something. -Right.

  • So do you think our generation goes, "We have a big march.

  • It trended on Twitter. And now we're done"

  • and we think that's enough,

  • whereas it's supposed to be an ongoing affair?

  • Twitter-- putting something out on Twitter is not a movement.

  • You can inform people through Twitter.

  • -It's very useful for that. -Right.

  • Facebook. They're all useful for that.

  • Also, you can be kept under surveillance

  • by the people who are watching you while you're doing it.

  • But you have to-- What I learned over time--

  • and Martin was an exemplar of that--

  • you have to be present in the moment.

  • You have to do something yourself.

  • You have to be there.

  • You have to put your body on the line.

  • You have to be willing to go to jail.

  • You have to be willing to say,

  • "Here I stand and you will go no further,

  • because I have moral authority in what I'm doing."

  • So, use any kind of media for communication,

  • -to get in touch and stay in touch. -Right.

  • Although we used to use mimeograph machines

  • and get ink all over our fingers

  • and all of that and the rest of it.

  • But you can make change.

  • So the lesson of all this is,

  • in this book is, if you read it,

  • if there's a change you want to have made, sure, vote.

  • It's an election year.

  • But don't just vote and then go home and say,

  • "All right, I did it. Now, four years from now,

  • I'll come back and do it again."

  • That won't get us anywhere.

  • That won't end inequality and that won't change us

  • and get us justice in this country.

  • -If you could organize-- Yeah. -(cheering and applause)

  • If you...

  • if you could organize a protest today that would

  • last until it-it got the results that it needed,

  • what would you say is the most pressing issue?

  • I know there are many, but what would you say right now

  • would be the most pressing, pressing issue that you think

  • people need to protest for?

  • -Climate change. -(whooping, applause)

  • Because climate change

  • affects all of us...

  • without regard to race or class or whatever it is.

  • We may not understand that it does,

  • but it does.

  • So, I would do it in a way

  • to try to explain to people

  • not just the morality of it,

  • but how their lives are in danger

  • and the lives of their children and so on.

  • -And find messaging... -Mm-hmm.

  • that would help to do that.

  • And the messaging takes time.

  • For the antiapartheid movement,

  • the steering committee on that movement, which was successful,

  • met every day at my house in the morning

  • for a year and a half.

  • And had protestors out every single day going to jail.

  • We all went to jail multiple times.

  • We boycotted, uh, Shell Oil Company.

  • We-we did, we-we made people stop buying Krugerrands,

  • when they didn't even know what Krugerrands were before.

  • -(Noah laughs) -Uh, we got now help

  • to get Nelson out of jail, and, oh, was that a great day

  • -when that happened. -Right.

  • And so, it takes hard work,

  • it takes thought, it takes, using creativity and imagination

  • about how to get the public's attention.

  • We had marches, but when we had marches,

  • we had celebrities, people who folks don't know about.

  • Paul Newman, you guys never heard of him.

  • (audience whooping)

  • -He was an actor, uh... -(Noah laughing)

  • -Um, people like that who were out there. -Right.

  • You know, doing it, so, in fact, you can...

  • If I were doing it, uh, I would sit down,

  • and you can, if anybody wants to start,

  • read the book and come to my house,

  • and we'll sit there for another year and a half going out

  • every day mobilizing people and figuring out what to do.

  • -Sounds like a plan. -(applause and cheering)

  • Thank you so much for being on the show.

  • -Sure. -Wonderful having you, especially today.

  • History Teaches Us to Resist is available now.

  • Dr. Mary Frances Berry, everybody.

-Welcome to The Daily Show. -Well, thank you.

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メアリー・フランシス・ベリー「歴史は私たちに抵抗することを教えてくれる」と抗議の力|ザ・デイリーショー (Mary Frances Berry - “History Teaches Us to Resist” and the Power of Protest | The Daily Show)

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    林宜悉 に公開 2021 年 01 月 14 日
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