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  • Thanks for joining us.

  • Colonel George Pill is probably the most hated man in Australia.

  • If you believe the media, he's been called a coward.

  • A sociopath.

  • Someone who protected pedophile priests.

  • After four grueling days in Rome this week, you gave evidence the road commission into child sexual abuse and was grilled about what he knew about the pedophile priest first in the Diocese of Bella Rat and then in Melbourne.

  • Now, if you believe Cardinal Pill, he was lied to.

  • He was lied to by his bishop in Ballarat Rubble, Milk turns on by his archbishop in Melbourne.

  • Frank Little Hey knew nothing.

  • And when he did know something, I became archbishop himself of Milburn.

  • He took action well.

  • The Royal Commission seemed to think that story unbelievable.

  • Virtually called him a liar to his face and said his stories were implausible but just is implausible.

  • I think is probably Thea other side of the story and that is that we have the third most senior Catholic in the world in the Vatican, effectively the treasurer sitting there in the witness box for four days telling lies after lies after lies and before that, defending pedophiles as they wrote Children.

  • So which one of these implausible stories is true?

  • George Hill, Sociopathic liar or just Pill?

  • The person who reformed It was a tremendous scandal.

  • Well, we're about to let you decide for yourself by meeting Cardinal Pill.

  • But before we start, I need to point out two things because there's so much misinformation yet again.

  • Going out about this interview?

  • No, I'm not a friend of Cardinal Pell.

  • We met socially briefly on four occasions before it came to run.

  • Secondly, no conditions have been put on this interview, and what you will see is unedited, as you can tell.

  • And it's entirely up to you what you make of what is about to happen.

  • Come, Phil.

  • Thanks for your time.

  • Thank you.

  • The being hated like this.

  • He's being cold coward scum on high rotation.

  • But the mainstream media This is not just Twitter reviews have devastating.

  • Is that for you?

  • Very, very difficult on DDE.

  • Very upsetting on DDE.

  • Is it that way around it on dive steadily tried to put out what is the truth.

  • Now if I could go a little bit out of sequence one of the things that helped me in my meeting with the ballot victims.

  • Uh, despite the fact that I've left Ballarat over 30 years ago, they knew me a little bit.

  • The number of them help some of them.

  • I'd help their family members.

  • So they knew at first hand what I was really like a distinct from this evil insensitive stereotype that is being pushed.

  • I want to talk to you about that lighter because it was something about making that very strong very powerfully.

  • But first, there's not just being personal attacks.

  • The attacks on you has been the attacks on your church and for good reason.

  • I have to say your church right stands condemned and rightly for hiding pedophiles for the right off hundreds of Children for covering up for telling lies.

  • And now we have lives destroyed, families destroyed and the church's reputation destroyed.

  • Does it?

  • How do you feel about your church when you see this catastrophe in front of you?

  • Well, very, very sad, effective all for the survivors.

  • But said also, I mean often that a cz well as they person their personality for individuals suffering off from their fight is damaged if not destroyed.

  • What?

  • What We must be clear about, though in fairness is that it was 20 years ago.

  • We got into gear to deal with these things.

  • We set up towards healing.

  • We set up the Melbourne Response.

  • Now I'm very keen.

  • This is not for gotten because a lot of very good people have worked very hard for 20 years Thio to deal with these crimes.

  • People like Peter Callaghan, Father John ASHA, Michael Salmon and many others rather Julien MacDonald, Uh, year of cover up his past.

  • Well, substantially finished 20 years ago.

  • All right, well, let's introduce you into how this all came about.

  • Your father owned the pub in Ballarat.

  • You're born in Balleret.

  • I believe your father was a heavy right boxing champion from England.

  • Now he wasn't from England.

  • These are nosy.

  • He a box under the name of Bill because his mother didn't approve.

  • But he waas the leading contender for the everybody championship.

  • I think of the British Empire.

  • So he wasn't that bad.

  • Sure you're a man of the cloth takes such pride in the pugilist.

  • Well, I certainly d'oh!

  • I'm very much admire my dad.

  • Good on you.

  • See you then chose the church.

  • You were quite good at school.

  • You were a good sportsman to you.

  • I even made the seconds that you feel now.

  • The NFL.

  • Why did you decide to become a priest instead?

  • Reluctantly.

  • Because I thought God was calling me to do that.

  • And I couldn't shake off that conviction.

  • What did you want to do with it?

  • What would I want with it?

  • Did you want to do with this calling with you?

  • Well, that well, just have gotten to serve the people.

  • Okay?

  • You went to Oxford.

  • You studied in Rome as well.

  • And in Bala Rat, you came to Bella back to Bella at in 1973.

  • Do you have any?

  • Any idea that in Ballarat this was the actual epicenter with some of the worst pedophilia in the church was occurring with one school.

  • Is something like four pedophiles active pedophiles preying on Children.

  • Did you have any idea that this was such a plagued diocese?

  • No.

  • I was aware that a man called Monsignor day in 72 had been exposed as a pedophile.

  • But I had no idea that it was one of the worst centers of demonstrated.

  • No, no idea.

  • Beyond that, door.

  • Incredibly, you actually shared accommodation for a little while with one of the world.

  • In fact, the worst pedophile, Gerald Ridsdale.

  • So you both in the same Chris Petrie had reached that strike You as a seaman way will get heard.

  • 10 months.

  • Unusual man.

  • I didn't warm to him, but by the same token way never clashed.

  • Um, he is capable.

  • People didn't complain to me about these manner as sometimes people would about other priests in.

  • They talk to priest friends and they didn't.

  • Hey, was a mystery man, I suppose we'd say subsequently, looking back, is there anything you say?

  • Well, I got from Is that for a Mr that aspect of his behavior?

  • I should have picked it up.

  • No, I once a celebrated mass after him And remember, his vestments were there and they were stopping with from some tension or something like that.

  • And I remember seeing that at the time, and I thought, Well, you know, he's a very tense man, that that's the only particular, um, characteristic that I can remember.

  • Did anyone come up to you?

  • And in all the years you were in Ballarat on say, you know that but Ridsdale that you shared a house with Watch out!

  • No Balleret 31 years ago.

  • There's a lot of water under the bridge after that.

  • But I didn't say that to me when I was in Ballarat.

  • After a few years, you're appointed is one of the consultants.

  • You were an up and coming young man.

  • You'd had well educated, smart, seen as a man of the future.

  • You were appointed one of the consultants of the bishop of Balleret, Ronald.

  • No cones.

  • It's beyond question.

  • It's it's admitted.

  • It's proven, not cones new.

  • But Ridsdale and other pedophile priests we're under his watch under his control, and he was moving them around and around and around assumes things got too hot.

  • One place we're moving somewhere else where they abused Children again.

  • Now you're sitting there is consultant and you're hearing that right?

  • Style is being moved again and again unusually often.

  • What did you ask about this?

  • Well, it wasn't as unusual as you might think, because in those days we had plenty of young priests and the practice Waas Thio Give them three years in a place and then move them on.

  • Now his record is not like that.

  • Uh, has obviously had either he was restless or in some sort of personality.

  • Um, problem.

  • That person in what people discuss this personality problem?

  • What were they calling it?

  • Well, no, they didn't die.

  • I can't recall any specific discussion like that.

  • Um, and I can't remember any specific discussion of a personality problem off grid style.

  • So there was one notorious thing of time.

  • Of course we reached that had to do a midnight flit from one place where it was essentially court.

  • Yes, with the boy on having abuse Children.

  • And this matter came before your consultants now around that that better never move.

  • They had to move.

  • What reason was given to your knowledge for him having to move so quickly abruptly at midnight?

  • Basically well, but I never knew anything about the consultants.

  • Never knew anything about a midnight flit from midnight on one occasion in the consult er's minute.

  • I don't have a very clear recollection of those makings at all about what was said.

  • One of those.

  • It said it was necessary to ship him.

  • Um, now, wait wasn't explained to us.

  • Uh, one of the consultants there has said that the bishop, it was for a reason because he was homosexual.

  • I can't remember that, but I don't disputed.

  • But that's, uh, that's certainly possible.

  • What's surprising to so many people about these?

  • These You've got a move and you don't ask, why is it being moved?

  • But you see, uh, hindsight, there's a big help.

  • We didn't have that then.

  • He was just one of a number of priests who came up with what he's moving pit off, huh?

  • And often would lease on a number of occasions.

  • One move was to the net, to the Catholic Enquiry Centre in Sydney will let imply some sort of a promotion.

  • It's no indication that, uh, there there were problems.

  • In retrospect, you you could be much much wiser.

  • Mm.

  • And here's another thing that has confused many people and admit to being confused himself.

  • Your cousin wasa machine, you in the church if he knew that something very awful was happening.

  • You sitting around this consultant's meetings of I don't know how many with seven, right?

  • About three people who knew that this guy was red hot Bishop sitting there knew he was a pedophile.

  • Andi, you're you don't even the drinkers at the Apollo Bay Hotel apparently knew on parents and teachers and nothing at all on DNO that meaning.

  • But some in three towns knew how come you didn't?

  • Because we were never told.

  • It's not just myself.

  • The other consultants are very clear on that.

  • We were I never told.

  • I'm not sure that even the Vicar general's were told about something other than what occurred during that period is Vicar General.

  • My cousin Hank was a notoriously monosyllabic Accept any change here once in a while.

  • Ah.

  • Hey, was, uh, closed on on these methods.

  • Um, I completely understand why people would think How can this be?

  • You've got three people that I'm meeting, maybe four.

  • That's not the major implausibility.

  • Yeah, What is so overwhelmingly implausible is that we've got probably the worst better file.

  • Uh, Australia active, and we've got a bishop or not.

  • Didn't just give him a second chance, but repeatedly refused to back.

  • Unless that's completely implausible.

  • And that's Theo.

  • Evidence is very clear way in.

  • The consultants them want told now, as I said, I lived Balleret 30 years ago, there was water to go under the bridge on after I left.

  • But the mission and one or two of these was sat on this very tightly.

  • And I think the reason for that is because if they mention to the consultants why it was happening, you would have provided enormous discussion people.

  • Well, you know what's going on.

  • Can we do this?

  • Is this appropriate?

  • What about the danger to people?

  • And and that didn't happen.

  • That's unanimous.

  • Unanimous testimony off the consultants.

  • So your critics would obviously say that you're the kind of guy that sits there in a meeting, knowing this bloke is abusing Children and ticking off you can get another time to do it again is that everybody knows.

  • May believes that.

  • I mean, I might be occasionally out spoken.

  • I might occasionally put my foot in it.

  • Ah, but anybody who knows me know would know that I wasn't going to be sitting there saying nothing if way we're aware of.

  • I was aware of that.

  • Now it's beyond dispute.

  • It's proven thing that Bishop Balcones, sitting there, knows all this.

  • Then hang moves.

  • These pedophiles knows it and hides it.

  • Have you got any explanation why he would do that?

  • And why he would lie to you guys as well.

  • I often thought about that.

  • And I've said they the pattern off in activity was catastrophic.

  • I mean, Simon suffering would have been stopped redacted earlier.

  • And I can for the life of may understand?

  • Why didn't he did do something?

  • He did send, uh, Ridsdale off to get psychological help.

  • Um, and eventually around the light ideas or 90 sent him off to an institute in the U.

  • S.

  • A.

  • For this, you probably overestimated what CYA psychology could do.

  • But that still leaves the question.

  • It's a great mystery.

  • I think.

  • He just got deeper and deeper and deeper, and I suspect, eventually was like an animal court in the headlights of a car just trapped.

  • He wasn't quite sure, but these evidence, he said he didn't know what they will.

  • That that's insufficient in expectable, too.

  • But I can't give any coherent raising.

  • Truth is, is that someone had something on him.

  • Well, I've done I can't believe that, uh, it's obviously a possibility, but I I don't think so.

  • I believe that Malcolm says was very upright.

  • Man.

  • Is it the case?

  • They might be, in some sense of middle ground here that you were dangerously in.

  • Curious as well.

  • Do you accept that?

  • No, I don't think that's fair, because because I wasn't incurious.

  • I was, uh I presume that my knowledge that anything grossly wrong was happening.

  • And secondly, I trusted the mission.

  • You haven't helped yourself by some of the statements you've made in the witness box.

  • And the one that really jarred with so many people me included, was this one and you know later said I accepted you had misspoken.

  • But how did you come to say this when you were told about Reed style in one particular town?

  • Thing was Inglewood and you said very views Children.

  • You said it is a sad story and wasn't off much interest to me.

  • What did you mean to say?

  • Well, what if you look at the except you'll see we were talking about 93 94 when he'd already been convicted.

  • The conversation was Sara Lee Muddled, please.

  • Driver Stan really muddled and moved over Thio discussing when the instance happened, which I didn't know about in the nineties.

  • I was no longer on official of the Ballarat dices.

  • I never liked raiding about in detail about these matters and what I said.

  • So, uh, ineffectively waas that I didn't I wasn't, um I'm things that were professionally necessary.

  • No, I was completely ready to study them.

  • But to suggest from that bad slip, um, that I was somehow uninterested in issue is, of course, completely contradicted by the and the whole, uh, out of my life in the whole of my my work.

  • And I just say a little bit in self defense.

  • 19 and 1/2 hours of interrogation is nothing.

  • Well, you didn't again in the sense that you were talking about a schoolboy that you trusted.

  • Who warned you about another priest?

  • Some.

  • You said it was a vague allegation on a school and you said quote something like, I didn't do anything about it, which is in the headline.

  • I think of the Australian on the front page today.

  • Didn't do anything about it.

  • I didn't do that.

  • But that letter disappointing headline Truth is because the truth is that that the at the Royal Commission I pointed out that I went and inquired of the school chaplain whether there was anything in these stories that were vague.

  • That wasn't exactly sure what was being said.

  • And the school Chapman said to me, Yes.

  • I think there is something in the maze on dhe.

  • Certainly.

  • He could be very, very harsh and violent, But there was also further dimension.

  • And he said, the brothers of doing something about it?

  • Yeah, not long after that, uh, that the man was shifted, injected into prison.

  • This is the problem.

  • And I would think this misses.

  • That's correct.

  • This was 40 years ago.

  • Uh, I That stage was not aware that the Christian brothers handled these things badly.

  • I wasn't the goal Shore that thing.

  • Activity waas gratefully wrong on dhe.

  • I trusted them.

  • Thio deal with it in the summer appropriate way They shifted.

  • You said a couple of times in the hearings this week.

  • But you should have Bean Maur pushy.

  • What did you mean?

  • Well, I was thinking more of my time in in Milton rather than, uh in, uh in Ballarat, where I was a food in battle, for example to this complaint Thio by boy, for instance, that maybe you should have followed it up if you would like to present understanding.

  • I said we shouldn't, um, one of your worst.

  • Miss Stokes, I think you've acknowledged this is two years later, when Rich that was finally finally arrested and brought to court.

  • You faithfully decided to walk him to the court, and this was widely photographed.

  • Whenever there's a thing Tim mentions song attacking has that was portrayed as you, his church standing by yet again, a pedophile priest.

  • What was going through your mind when you did that?

  • I think in fairness to May, I shouldn't sit out what happened.

  • I was asked to give him a reference with what diminishes his time in prison or the punishment.

  • Um, I haven't seen him for years.

  • I was no particular friend of his A door.

  • The records show that there was prolonged discussion with the lawyers because I said to them, I would not say or do would not write a reference.

  • And I would not get a court unless I could sigh.

  • I'm not disputing the charges.

  • I want to imply no disrespect for the survivors for the victims.

  • And I also would insist on saying that uh, he done a lot of evil now.

  • Ah, a lot of harm.

  • Rather, that stage we didn't know where the full list of by any man remains.

  • Also wanted to say he'd also done some good bye.

  • Certainly did.

  • Andi.

  • I didn't particularly want to do it because while I can be a bit insensitive, I even then realized this was a bit Well, then I'll put you out on the limb I raised without official little.

  • At the end, He said to me, Yes, Well, uh um, you go on, do it now.

  • The reason.

  • The basic reason I did way you're find Chapter 25 of Matthew Women separation with the sheep from the goats of the last day and one of the criteria.

  • But I mentioned there's whether you visit people in prison.

  • So now that side of the reasoning iss unimpeachable what I had my naivety thought I stand for justice.

  • I'm totally in favor of the the rights of the victims because I walk into court that the lawyer refused to let me appear.

  • He said, We'll be there.

  • We don't want you to do that.

  • Would you walk him now?

  • That was seen, of course, that somehow taking his side about victims, I never intended it like that and it's that that, uh, that I regret very, very deeply.

  • I mind you, I'm sorry.

  • Appeared at many priests.

  • Many priests go along two court cases with parishioners or somebody who want them to put in a good word.

  • So what I was doing wasn't unique.

  • I did it for other people during my years as a as a priest can see how you could use that not just in the way that I originally introduced this, but incense off.

  • You have a priest and accepting your view that you were there to comfort the sinner.

  • Is it worth?

  • But you also had the victims and your attention was with the pretty struggling victims.

  • Do you accept that there was no it wasn't Rather I wasn't allowed Thio to testify because of my express It thio demand that I would speak of the victim.

  • But having said that Ah, I realize it was seen as supporting the priest.

  • Both the victims and I have to play guilty to that and I regret it not only did it once let's move on, Thio your next appointment which was in 1987 You are moved to the Archdiocese of Melbourne under Frank Little Pope John Paul to conservative like you.

  • Like the cut of your jib and you were clearly inserted as the eventual successes with Frank Little.

  • Well, that's different.

  • That wasn't very clear at all.

  • They weren't Jim paneer people who wanted that.

  • I would have wanted that.

  • But it was seen as you the I've been coming, guy Frank Little There's more of the left or progressive, so to speak and you're a conservative.

  • Did you have any notion at that stage that here we had another guy, frankly, who was moving around or covering that four dangerous angle pedophile priests?

  • No, I didn't.

  • But let me say a position.

  • I mean, you're it's interesting that New York and I was clearly the black was gonna take over.

  • Uh, well, for many of the powers that be the leadership of the Church of Milton that states.

  • That was the one thing I didn't want now because Well, first of all, I was theologically conservative.

  • I was an academic.

  • Ah, I came from the country from Balleret and a lot of the mill been praised, found that hard to take.

  • Interestingly, more of them saying to have difficulty with that in the Sydney Brace when I came from Interstate, but all these things were wrapped together.

  • On top of all, that I was a supporter of Bob Santa Maria, the notorious conservative, victorious, the conservative flight critical and generals.

  • Yes, and also with very clear ideas off the by the church should be going.

  • And I think the fact that I think in many ways the church is going better in the straighter than it was 2025 years ago.

  • As much to the writings off off Bab Santa Maria who spread the understanding.

  • Explain what John Paul the second I was trying to do then My basic thesis isn't.

  • I think it's born out by the facts around the world that radical liberalism in faith and morals in Catholicism's destroys the church.

  • And do you think that was the one of the lessons of Balleret and Melbourne?

  • Some extent, I mean, the church is not destroyed, neither in either place.

  • It's a sense of a lacks moral or structural of fart.

  • Derivative leadership led to what we sing.

  • Yes, it was, There's no way around it.

  • It was a colossal fighter of leadership.

  • I have a little talk about that leadership.

  • One of the people that Frank Little was moving around was the priest Peter season.

  • When you look at the sort of things that were known about him, then not all of them known by you, of course, but at least some of them things like loitering around the boys toilets, making Children take confession with the head on his knee, pulling a pistol on a on on on a boy threatened to stab a girl with a screwdriver killing.

  • I think I think he stabbed the bird with the script.

  • Did that too.

  • But I think you pointed a knife.

  • If I apologize to the wrong choice of weapon basically a very, very bad person.

  • Yours.

  • You saying that you try to take action?

  • But a lot of what he had done was not known to you.

  • You would like to buy a little and you were lied to by the Catholic Education Office under him who knew his full record?

  • The court of the converter commission to head seem to think that was implausible.

  • That you Why would they lie to you?

  • He said, Why would they like to you?

  • I will festival.

  • I think there was only one man who knew nearly all that.

  • And that was little because, uh, part of the problem.

  • There were no nuclear procedures and the information was compartmentalized.

  • I'm not sure how many of any new, for example, about all the problems in Sudbury, which were there before he does have some breathing.

  • He went to Tufts on it when he became under your came in New York, the education officer.

  • Once again, not everyone there.

  • The leadership would have known everything it now mergers, which was never communicated to May.

  • That Director of Education, a very competent director and a good praise father, Tom Doyle, had said a little that CS and must go.

  • I never knew that.

  • Ah, and I'm not sure that the officials in the Catholic Education Office that you that now they I don't think they would have seen that as a deception of May that they never put all their cards on the table, too.

  • May see yourself sitting witness spots like to you on.

  • That's when the road commissioner boss Sapyta McClellan said, Why would they lie to you?

  • He just could not believe your story.

  • I e.

  • If it was a lie being told it was by you.

  • Have you?

  • Will it?

  • I'm suggesting obviously you could describe accurately as a lie when somebody doesn't put all their their cats on the tape.

  • But there are other reasons for what they would see as represents or deception.

  • And one of them waas his voice is he's not in the chain of command is an exhilarating Let's get this straight.

  • You've got the archbishop little there on the dumped in school here.

  • Now, while you're in auxiliary, one of four auxiliary bishops of school is in your general area.

  • But you're saying you didn't actually have any control over what power is an auxiliary bishop have represents the special.

  • It's very clear from all the evidence that, uh, complaints generally went to the vicar general representing the archbishop.

  • The diocese was strongly centralized on DDE in the schools, they went sometimes through the regional consultant but directly to the office of the of the Director of Education.

  • It was even quite unusual that a deputation came to May, which it did, which it did on.

  • In retrospect, I suppose that indicated dissatisfaction with the ordinary avenue.

  • So this is a bunch of teachers with a long list of complaints about this bloke and what did you do that?

  • Well, you see, what is interesting is what they did is compatible with the view.

  • I talking what little told me because they came to complain and I said, Wait, wait, don't want him removed.

  • We think he's very odd, man, that we want something done you seem to be spoken to.

  • But I knew enough of what I just said.

  • I mean, you don't even need to know.

  • That is a pity file.

  • To think this bloke is a fruitcake and then menace and should be no any any child.

  • And yet even, well, that finishes if they said that to me, but they didn't make the records show that on the records also show that the Union rep I was disappointed, but he didn't kiss my point.

  • I I'm all right.

  • I've got a reputation to being ahead.

  • Kick it now.

  • Someone came to me.

  • That's it.

  • You know the knife to this, that that the child's hit on the leg on people's kids are scared to be in with the toilets will allow that kind of stuff.

  • I wouldn't say, What do you want me to do?

  • I'd say you know what I'm gonna do out.

  • That's what I would say.

  • Well, you might have said that, and if you had the power, you would have been able to do it.

  • I had no power to put it on.

  • Put anybody out.

  • But I did do was I went to a little Andi.

  • I told him this story and I said, You know what can be done and store iwas uh, which I believe I was.

  • I was aware there were problems.

  • I explicitly remember the list off, um, holding behavior of appalling behavior.

  • There's no there is reference.

  • There's no explicit accusation of pedophilia and the line that was given to me.

  • Iwas Yes, there is some fire a lot of respect on.

  • We haven't got enough grounds to get rid of you.

  • And what was little not telling you about Miss Peterson?

  • Well, I saw just in preparation for the Royal Commission a page and 1/2 off offenses that, uh, offenses of complaints that Sandra was technique of disappointment.

  • Yes, and I mean, if that was now, of course, that's very cumulative.

  • Even if the matters themselves.

  • Uh, not of the gravest nature.

  • Didn't know that.

  • What was a little sitting on any allegations that so pitifully I don't know when he knew about the woman called Julie Stewart.

  • Um, now what?

  • Eventually Waas Ah told Mei Waas The police have investigated this on Dhe decided not to go in.

  • We got the education officer.

  • This is certainly true God Minto Ellison in the lawyers to investigate the evidence.

  • And, uh, what I was told was they said, you know, we can't do anything.

  • What?

  • In fact, they recommended waas that the investigation a formal investigation that take place.

  • Uh, now, I didn't, um I realize that dimension of it.

  • I'm not even sure whether I don't think I ever saw the mentor Ellison report at that stage.

  • But the exit gheris were peripheral to the actual executive running of the Is this you refer to a number of times this week.

  • The fact that that, uh, times were different then And here we heard, of course.

  • Yes.

  • That was a complaint to police.

  • Police did not prosecute him.

  • We've heard about complaints of another pedophile priests to the crown solicitor at the time of Victoria who declined It said No evidence to prosecute all that.

  • We actually thought the governor's minister.

  • Children.

  • We've had parents complaining to a priest, but not to the police.

  • We had the child of a policeman and a listed, and even then, no charges for profit Way had a child.

  • We had a pretty spacing night with naked boys in a river.

  • And none of the parents took it to the police.

  • And what what do you make of all that?

  • Well, the radical differences were in comparison with the seventies.

  • Yeah, from the mid eighties, at least at the level of bishops.

  • And I tried to spread that understanding we were getting I, uh um much better understanding.

  • So I way couldn't climb a title in sensitivity from the middle.

  • I tease onwards, the at all they point merely more than things.

  • Blindness to what was happening was probably wasting the church, but shared to some extent wider than the church.

  • I think there's no doubt whatsoever about that.

  • I mean, there's the evidence from the psychiatrist in 7500 style of the place in ringing him up on Dhe, saying way, No, but what we think just out to petrify.

  • We're not going to do anything about it, but we're pleased that you're that you're giving him treatment on that.

  • The psychiatrist?

  • I think so, the psychiatrist said.

  • I'm treating him for anxiety.

  • I'm not a specialist in this, so you could be held to a different standard than other organs of state or society.

  • I think that's is certainly something to be examined, and I think in in many ways we are.

  • But having said that, this thing, this is a problem right across society and one of the one of the things the royal commission has establishes it goes across all institutions happened in religious.

  • But having said that, there's a disproportionate amount of it that it waas in the Catholic Church.

  • We gotta play guilty to death now.

  • You did invent fact replace Frank Little.

  • He was pushed out and says effectively four years early and picked on poor two's man on the spot.

  • You took over within three months.

  • Of course, you had the first conversation scheme for victims and you got rid of season.

  • They're more important than that.

  • My first priority was never compensation.

  • My first priority waas that the wrongs would be recognized and that counseling would be available and the compensation was the better.

  • My priority has never been and simply or primarily to save money for the church.

  • I've always said right from the beginning, we should pay according to the national standards.

  • And if you look at my record in both Melbourne and Sydney, you will find that comparatively I was with diocesan payments.

  • Compensation were amongst the most generous of the Catholic institutions and actually have any institution.

  • The critics say that it was your you infect push in Premier Jeff Kennett to set up their compensation scheme, or he'd call the Royal Commission.

  • Now, well, that's an interesting story on the suspect one that I was at the fund raising dinner.

  • I was very friendly, friendly with the governor.

  • McGarvey.

  • I respected him on McGarvey said me.

  • I'd like to talk to you about your problems, has it all.

  • What are they?

  • And he said, you know the pedophilia now, he said, get into gear and do something.

  • Otherwise you'll bleed to death for many years, he said, set up a Catholic Royal Commission might get independence and get them to judge it, and I thought there was terrific advice I was involved in I even my view controversy with Kennedy of the Catholic Hospital.

  • There was some.

  • That's just a bit since the government want to shift it out.

  • Tie objected strongly to that, and I was speaking with the premier.

  • Ah, they're on the on that matter.

  • And, um, he said to the in this, Or you said there will be no royal commission about He said, You played it up, Andi, I said, Yes, I'm happy to do that.

  • On the matter of fact, I said, I've been speaking to McGarvey McGarvey said to set up something like a Catholic royal commission.

  • So you deny that you were pushed into it?

  • Well, yes, it was exactly the way that I said the premiere was concerned.

  • The preview wanted something done.

  • But it, uh, it me.

  • It's exactly the way I described.

  • But, uh, Andi, I was able to say to him what we were already proposing to do.

  • You couldn't say that because of what happened.

  • That and in credit you with cleanup thing.

  • They say you should have acted before it set.

  • This disqualifies you from the job that you got next well after Sydney, which is where you are now the most senior Catholic leader in the world in charge of the finances.

  • Effectively the treasure, the treasure of the Vatican that your man of cover up, What are you doing in the Vatican?

  • Well, what evidence is there of a capital?

  • It's very that's the allegation is that I mentioned that the Royal Commission there's no shred of evidence that was uncontested by what should be a perception that, you know, man of cover up, that's perception being tragic.

  • Vatican finances Well, I know a man of cover up in charge of any Vatican finances, and, uh, we're all obliged.

  • Actually, I want my record, which is I've appeared before the parliamentary inquiry in terms of the Vatican that, for example, that corruption's endemic in the Vatican.

  • True enough, that's an over exaggeration is not endemic.

  • But they're coming back from Africa and said, there there is, uh, there is corruption in the financial seven section Max less than their waas.

  • Um and we're working systematically.

  • Thio eliminate that I have this this corruption guy Well, that's a very good That's very good to the Cardinals.

  • Well, whatever happened with.

  • Who knows to the level of the pope under?

  • Certainly not.

  • Maybe not.

  • Pope Francis is backing, and I'm just trying establish the level.

  • So not the pope.

  • You don't know about the cardinals?

  • What about one up from the colonel's?

  • So, Yeah, I'm secretary level by level.

  • Well, not secretaries don't want from a cat.

  • I think you get a very high level.

  • Well, these things need to be a established.

  • How much money we talking about?

  • Uh, well, wait, we're talking about millions.

  • Everything different to Vatican, Huh?

  • Agencies?

  • Um I mean, in the u of it's called the Vatican Bank.

  • It isn't.

  • Actually, it's the bank for the Vatican employees, religious orders and diocese.

  • Well, I think they closed three or 4000 accounts for three or 4000 accounts of people who had no right to have an account there and because the danger is that there's a council being used for money laundry.

  • Now Matthew knows whether it's the Mafia or some other big criminal organization.

  • It's, uh, that's very difficult to establish their singing figures involved.

  • Obviously.

  • Are we talking about money that they just put off the books or money that's actually going to where it shouldn't go.

  • Um, certainly the first.

  • When we moved, the pope appointed May and accepted the recommendations of this car.

  • Say a group.

  • You have a group of eight or nine experts to look at it that nobody could say Nobody could say what?

  • The financial situation, the Vatican walls accurate.

  • Nobody knew.

  • One of the interesting things we discovered was that there was 1.4 billion euros worth of assets which went on the books, which is quite something, Uh, so that's, uh, the on dhe.

  • Already some examples of corruption.

  • I'm a public knowledge.

  • In the last years of John Paul, the second in a property worth 150 million was sold for 90 million.

  • Waited a 60 year.

  • Well, well, I suppose you know it.

  • Uh, the properties were taken by people, and I subsequently did something with him and obviously that imagine of 60 million, theoretically to put into their into their pockets.

  • There they're public accusations off financial manipulation combination between the Vatican Agency and on outside the bank.

  • To see how it sounds.

  • You know, you've got cover up corruption, cover a moral corruption with Children in Ballarat and been together being abused a financial corruption here.

  • Are you proud of your church?

  • I'm here trying to do with the finances what I did to clean up corruption on in the pedophilia ring.

  • Melbourne.

  • They're two different worlds, but, uh, I'm doing the same part of a team we now have, um, Internal Order.

  • Very senior man, completely independent.

  • We've now got a price.

  • Cooper's as external orbiters.

  • We've got a great cool dive which supervises the your bank.

  • And we're cooperating under the supervision of same money belt that we have to report to them regularly.

  • Read what we're doing.

  • Can I get back before the week before you gave evidence to the royal commission again?

  • Third time, Um, a leak appeared in the papers that between police investigating you for abusing Children yourself between five and 10 victims.

  • What did you make of that league?

  • I mean, that's it was extraordinary.

  • Tonight, played completely false.

  • No, baby.

  • Never approach to May that one of the interesting things is that we have become a height figure.

  • People, I imagine a lot like that.

  • No.

  • The worst stories about you now three of the accusations about justice, justice which, at the Royal Commission that I was told this and told them three of those are demonstrable e farts.

  • That's the boy who said he warned, because he knocked in your presbytery door just after school, when in fact your house was two kilometers away.

  • Different paths.

  • That's right and you're working full time.

  • You would have been home anyway.

  • That's right.

  • And then another one was about you celebrating Mess.

  • Ballarat telling a priest, Jerry Excuse the language has been rooting young boys again.

  • Just grits now from the mess.

  • Didn't I could record of it in The priest was in another diocese.

  • 200.

  • Here's another Paris 200 kilometers away.

  • So what does that tell you about what's happening?

  • I don't know what to make of it, but there's another example to where I was supposed to being rude to a feather when I told him to run away when he was complaining and I was in Europe.

  • I don't know what to make of it, but I do know that it's, uh, it's that people, the very minimal will jump of shadows.

  • But does this suggest to you?

  • You know, you have become a lightning rod for the accusations.

  • And I accept what you say.

  • Something's exactly plainly untrue.

  • The places I must be devastating for you.

  • Fight.

  • You are an amusing yourself.

  • They're suggesting.

  • Forget to the question of hanging for the do you suspect anything going on?

  • Victoria police because previously given evidence to a form of Victorian choir that turned out to exaggerate some of you a couple.

  • Billy.

  • They said you were demanding a gag orders.

  • If you're going to compensate anyone Let sang gag orders.

  • That wasn't true.

  • You weren't encouraging.

  • People get the police.

  • That wasn't true.

  • And the number of suicides was grossly inflated as well.

  • Do you suspect this pattern now?

  • These this leak Mrs I want to make of it could bathe at the place.

  • Commissioners badly braved, badly informed.

  • I don't know about for Lord on the police Commissioner.

  • Now, listen, he could be could be badly informed.

  • I don't know where the way Well, I don't know where the leak came from, but that where the missing information is coming from.

  • But given that you have in the lightning rod on the height figure, step back.

  • You said you insisted on Dhe.

  • You know if you put your case crust family, this thing's fight This church was an instant instant man who died for the sins of others.

  • Is it ever occurred to you that in some sense you might follow the example by resigning Innocent, as you say you are for the sake of the church and just, um no, I wouldn't resign.

  • That would be taken as an admission of guilt if the Holy Father asked me to point this out.

  • But I do whatever they wanted.

  • But there's you've got give you a resignation in her formally in 2075 bc days here, elector and obviously like everybody else.

  • I and I will do that that might or might be accepted.

  • But that would be part of the normal, not the petal, not four years earlier, right years early.

  • One of the things that is surprising to me.

  • Mitchell has a say four times before, on again yesterday of Mitch, you and I'm struck by one really interesting thing.

  • Your public appearances.

  • You seem Stephen authoritative and and privately you seem a warmer, warmer guy, and this is really brought to bear with me.

  • Yesterday when my wife rang and said, Admit the victims, the survivors.

  • Yesterday you read a statement.

  • She said the words were great, but you've seen so moved almost Rushmore kind of thing.

  • I actually saw you when you came back from that meeting.

  • And I have to say you're is if you far it's seen you were so happy and relieved and moved.

  • Can I get through that?

  • Uh, one?

  • It seemed to me that you were scared off what your reception would be from the victims included.

  • It's the nephew often Victim off.

  • Gerald Ridsdale.

  • Were you scared going into that meeting?

  • You could use that word.

  • I was scared of one skin that we get backwards rather forwards tight.

  • You Well, I mean, I wanted to, um late initially did.

  • No.

  • I accepted that.

  • That I didn't want a punch up.

  • That my things worse for you now for the church, For then you set the church first, I guess.

  • Well, the that perhaps a Freudian slip.

  • But certainly I didn't.

  • I want us to go forward and we did.

  • You would.

  • And I'd like to say you for what you did.

  • I wouldn't have said euphoric.

  • I was deeply relieved.

  • I found it very, very emotional.

  • The meeting.

  • Why don't you share show their emotions now that's a I'm a bit buttoned up.

  • That's the way in which I was trained.

  • As was partly personality.

  • And it's also to survive.

  • Uh, if you continue, I'm dealt for 20 years, but this, uh, with offenders and well, so you know, I gotta deal with these financial things that you're gonna keep yourself together.

  • It and sometimes you come three was too much play.

  • I have a plated on DDE.

  • You can't judge a book by its cover.

  • The fact that somebody seems a bit wooden is not doesn't necessarily mean that inside there you really turned things around.

  • This last does the scent of something.

  • It seems to me that the public is waiting for that Clunk, ma'am.

  • Again Hey gets it and wanting to see an emotional response from you.

  • Do you think that they need to see that you get it?

  • I like him too, but I do get it.

  • And my actions show that I get it another ah little dimension that might help explain what I wasn't a bad football.

  • I didn't like the seconds I saw a bit of a thug.

  • Well, I was very fiery.

  • I've got a formidable temper, which I almost never show on.

  • But the discipline that is needed may not Two laps in that way, I think helps explain my wooden appears.

  • You know what really struck me too, And apparently because it wasn't there.

  • And I barely know you.

  • But David Ridsdale has accused you of saying you know which you hotly deny off effectively trying to bribe him.

  • Not to go to the police would infect the police.

  • Were his store virtually.

  • But I believe that to one side is being an accuser off you.

  • You have this meeting yesterday with him among the other victims.

  • And it struck me that you came away feeling so relieved.

  • I thought you fart.

  • You dispute that.

  • But you were bouncing around very happy.

  • Um, that incense, a cardinal a

Thanks for joining us.

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ジョージ・ペル枢機卿 - インタビュー (Cardinal George Pell - Interview)

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    林宜悉 に公開 2021 年 01 月 14 日
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