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  • It really is an interesting time right now,

  • because more than ever, it feels like

  • Saudi Arabia is in the news.

  • More than ever, it feels like Iran is in the news.

  • And the one question

  • I would like to start this off with is...

  • A lot of the time, the conversation

  • in and around the Middle East is seen

  • -through the prism of America. -Absolutely.

  • It's how America sees the Middle East,

  • and it's how Americans see the Middle East.

  • But how does the Middle East see

  • what's happening in the Middle East right now?

  • You know, you have a section

  • at the moment-- "War in the Middle East: It's Persianal."

  • -Yes. -Well, it is very personal, right?

  • If you live in Beirut, if you live in Baghdad,

  • if you live in Cairo, it's very personal

  • what's going on at the moment.

  • It involves, uh, uprisings, it involves protests.

  • It involves the killing of Qasem Soleimani, of course...

  • -Mm-hmm. -...the head of Iranian Quds Force,

  • part of the Iranian Revolutionary...

  • Islamic Revolutionary Guards.

  • Um, that strike was, uh, ordered by President Trump.

  • And I know that here in the U.S.,

  • the concern was, "Oh, my God.

  • "President Trump is taking us to war.

  • -This strike is crazy." -Right.

  • But if you look at it from the Middle Eastern side,

  • we kind of are already

  • in constant upheaval and constant war.

  • And for a lot of people in the region

  • who are afraid of Iran's regional, um... ambitions

  • -and its proxy militias... -Right.

  • that act in countries like Iraq and Lebanon and Syria,

  • uh, the assassination of Qasem Soleimani was a welcome thing,

  • and a lot of people, uh, celebrated.

  • So there's a debate, a political debate here

  • about whether what Trump does is good or bad for the country.

  • -Yes. -And the Democrats are very critical of him.

  • In the Middle East, we look at it,

  • "Is this good for us or not?"

  • It is interesting because, in the region,

  • one thing that I think a lot of people don't realize is

  • that no group nor country is homogenous.

  • Because even within Iran, there were people

  • who were mourning the death of Soleimani.

  • And then, there were those who were completely against

  • what Iran was doing in retaliation.

  • I mean, when the... when the plane was shot down

  • with the passengers, you know, that was a big uprising

  • against the Iranian government.

  • This book, though, is really interesting, because...

  • it really lays it out in-in...

  • if I may be so bold to say, in a simple way.

  • You know, where you talk about why Saudi Arabia and Iran

  • began this proxy war and this-this cold war

  • between each other.

  • What do you think is the inciting incident?

  • 1979. That is the turning point in the Middle East,

  • that is the year when Iran had a revolution

  • and became a theocracy.

  • And I don't mind that you call it "simple,"

  • because this book is really not just for experts,

  • -Mm-hmm. -it is for your audience,

  • it is for people in the United States,

  • it is for anyone who wants to understand more

  • about the Middle East and wants to go beyond the headlines

  • -about tyrants and terrorists. -Right.

  • This is 40 years of history, seven countries,

  • and 15 incredible people, whose lives are upended

  • by the politics and the geopolitics.

  • People like you and me, who've had difficult pasts,

  • difficult childhoods.

  • And when you tell their stories, you can really get to the heart

  • of the geopolitics, and you can explain the bigger picture

  • in a much more accessible way.

  • And the key of the book is to try to explain

  • why the Saudi-Iran rivalry is so enduring,

  • -Mm-hmm. -and why it is of huge consequence

  • to the world's security and America's security.

  • When you look at the relationship

  • between Saudi Arabia and the U.S.,

  • especially under Trump, there's no denying that,

  • in many ways, it feels like Saudi really has a hold

  • on Donald Trump.

  • You know, he loves to work with them-slash-for them...

  • They may have his phone.

  • Right, they may have his phone now.

  • That's what people are wondering, about Kushner

  • and the WhatsApps after what happened to Jeff Bezos.

  • When you look at Saudi Arabia,

  • especially under, um, bin Salman,

  • you have a ruler who is lauded on one end as being, you know,

  • -really... -A reformer.

  • Reformer. The person who's changing the way things are

  • in Saudi Arabia-- women can drive,

  • and we're trying to become more liberal,

  • and we're trying to just, you know, modernize the country.

  • At the same time, though, is the killing of journalists,

  • and now it looks like there's the hacking of people.

  • How is he seen in the region, and maybe even in Saudi?

  • Do you have any insight into that?

  • You know, I'll say two things. One, he is a reformer

  • when it comes to social and cultural norms in the country,

  • -Yes. -inside Saudi Arabia.

  • Women can drive, but some of them are also in jail

  • because they campaigned for the driving.

  • He wants the credit for allowing women to drive,

  • not the activists.

  • -Interesting. -He, you know, his people also,

  • um, helped carry out the murder of a journalist,

  • Jamal Khashoggi, who was a friend,

  • and whose story is one of the stories I tell,

  • uh, in Black Wave.

  • Um, but he's a reformer only to some extent,

  • even within the country.

  • You know, a lot of the traditional values

  • -are still there, I think. -Mm-hmm.

  • The conservative values and the very narrow understanding

  • of his religion and Islam have been untouched.

  • So, you could say that his reforms are very far reaching,

  • but also smoke and mirrors.

  • The second part of it is my theory,

  • is that Mohammad bin Salman and Saudi Arabia

  • would actually like to a little bit more like Iran.

  • Whatever you think of Iran,

  • they have a very successful regional strategy.

  • Uh, they have proxy militias.

  • They have very loyal allies.

  • And they manage this very well.

  • And they've been doing it for 40 years.

  • And they are feared and respected.

  • And that's something that Saudi Arabia's never quite managed,

  • despite all the money that it throws at its allies.

  • -Right. -It doesn't buy the same kind of loyalty.

  • So, I think Mohammad bin Salman wants to be a little more

  • like the tough guy in the region.

  • A little bit more like Iran, a little bit more

  • like Qasem Soleimani, and I know that that's

  • gonna upset a lot of people in both countries.

  • But I pull no punches, I really,

  • I'm an equal opportunity critic.

  • And I think both countries have done

  • a lot of damage in the Middle East.

  • It's, it-it really is a-a fascinating look

  • at how the Middle East came to be in many ways.

  • Uh, before we go, if you're looking at Iran right now,

  • you're looking at what happened with Soleimani,

  • you're looking at how Iranians are reacting to it.

  • You know, uh, both the leaders speaking out

  • and-and-and those in-in parliament, for instance.

  • Is there any indication of how Iran is going

  • to move forward from what has happened?

  • I wrote about 40 years of history here--

  • it took me 40 years to figure out what happened in 1979.

  • -Wow. -So, I hope you'll invite me back on your show

  • -in 40 years from now. -Wow!

  • But what I can tell you, um, is that I think

  • there is something coming undone in the region.

  • 40 years after 1979, people are protesting,

  • not only in Iran, but also in Iraq

  • and in my own country of Lebanon.

  • People are protesting corruption.

  • They're protesting, uh, mismanagement

  • of their countries, of their economies.

  • They want a different future.

  • They want what everybody wants.

  • They want hope, they want dignity,

  • they want justice.

  • And I think that Iranians want that, too.

  • And I think that we are capable in the region

  • of getting there without outside help.

  • I think we can do it.

  • It costs a lot of lives, but I think

  • the younger generation is ready to let go

  • of this very difficult past,

  • and forge a different, uh, path forward.

  • Well, here's to hoping you're right.

  • Thank you so much for being on the show.

  • Thank you so much for having me.

  • Black Wave goes on sale January 28

  • and is available for preorder right now.

  • Kim Ghattas, everybody.

It really is an interesting time right now,

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キム・ガッタス「黒い波」と中東の米イラン緊張の捉え方|ザ・デイリーショー (Kim Ghattas - “Black Wave” and How the Middle East Perceives U.S.-Iran Tensions | The Daily Show)

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    林宜悉 に公開 2021 年 01 月 14 日
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