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  • Hello and welcome to June's addition off tax talk.

  • My name is Sarah Ghaffari, and I'm a technical manager in the tax faculty.

  • On with Me Today I have Frank ask you drink head of tax on.

  • We are joined by Jill Spring.

  • Bet.

  • Hi, Jill.

  • Jill is chairman of our Partition of Tax Committee on She's also tax partner actor MGR.

  • Weston K, which is a firm of chartered accountants based in London.

  • So it's lovely to have you Thank you for coming in to see a pleasure.

  • We've got lots of things to talk about today.

  • It's been a busy month for tax, but also been quite busy for the tax faculty itself.

  • Had a little bit of a relaunch.

  • Definitely.

  • Frank.

  • Well, we've got some new office holders.

  • We had our A GM in May.

  • So what?

  • We now have a new channel.

  • The tax back to Mary Mom.

  • Freeze on.

  • We have from wrong shark who's a decorative chairman who's of three.

  • Partner firm up in North London.

  • Thing I do.

  • I'm also Rebecca.

  • Benny Worth has come back as a vice chairman.

  • Toe particular member service is So that's how you tax on dhe.

  • I'm sure everybody knows this, but we also have a tax.

  • Former chairman of the tax man Lachlan has got the top job off the ice.

  • CW president from last week.

  • Twitter profiles last Actually, Andi Yes, he said, it's the biggest day of my professional career.

  • Sick of things did seem to think this morning.

  • No todo Yeah, So it's all change.

  • Well deserved change.

  • Okay, with a little bit more on the tax taxi later Because we've also got a new website to tell you about.

  • But aunt attacks, we thought First of all, we just touch on the sort of long awaited consultation off payroll working in the private sector which was published on the 18th of May Onda.

  • We are looking for comments from members which are given on the 10th of August.

  • But obviously the sooner the better.

  • That would be great, eh?

  • So the government's looking at how to tackle non compliance in the private sector, something that they have, I suppose, struggled to really get a grip off in the last few years or so.

  • We know that they've been reformed in the public sector and so that's one of the options is to extend those rules.

  • But there's a couple of other options as well in the consultation additional record keeping for engages and also more due diligence work before the work starts and ensuring that you've secured your supply chain Your labor supply chain, both of which, to me, seems quite a lot of extra administration and practically maybe unlikely.

  • Say what?

  • You think the chances although they might go down those because they almost like afterthoughts.

  • Yeah, and in the consultation document, it does say government preferred option is to extend it.

  • I think we would agree that you can't have separate rules for public sector and private sector, but we really need the public sector rules to be working.

  • General, you've had a few e mails and inquiries on this.

  • Yes, Yes, I've bean helping a client who is a TV presenter.

  • Um, on DDE, he is covered by the, uh well, the revenue, trying to say that he's coming by our 35.

  • And so I've bean heavily engaged in some discussions with the revenue which the three immense resources out.

  • Two guys flew down from Glasgow for an interview with the kind They then flew down a different day to interview one of the TV companies he works for on.

  • I think they came down to another TV company as well.

  • On DDE.

  • It was just ridiculous.

  • And they the guys who came down it down, didn't see not au fait with the nuances of status rules.

  • And so we've been talking a little bit about the tool on the website check Employment Status Tool.

  • Yes, you go through a series of questions.

  • Don't Unit spits out whether you are employed yourself employment and finding well, I've never actually used it.

  • I've talked to people because they say the BBC are covered.

  • And so I have a chapped with people from BBC about how they're finding.

  • I know they're really struggling with it because they know tax on.

  • They know that it's not accurate.

  • And so I had a look at it myself.

  • On DDE.

  • It's It looks like it's been designed by committee on.

  • People have shoehorned in things, but they, you know, you might be able to say yes or no to a question.

  • But then they add a little bit text, which means it actually really on.

  • You don't have the option of saying none of these apply.

  • So you're Dragoon, your led down a pathway which may not be right.

  • So if they try and force you to use that tool and that is, well, it's just roam.

  • I tried putting in some examples of cunts who I know are definitely self employed, and it just came out at the end with We can't determine your status contractors.

  • So I don't think the revenue will have the resources.

  • If they wheel it out to everybody, they won't have the resources to look at this.

  • So what's gonna happen in good time?

  • Quite interesting.

  • I have been a few round tables with very professional bodies or business groups on DSO one already.

  • It seems as though HMRC aren't aware of the issues with the tool and they are asking for evidence, evidence, evidence.

  • So really, you know, we we need to get evidence in, and that's when you know our listeners and our members are really valuable because they will have that practical evidence.

  • But the thing is that I was admittedly looking at it on my iPad, but you can't print off all of your answers to review all in one go, you seem to be able to do it just by page, which isn't what they normally do anyway.

  • But, you know, that way you can say yes and you can't print off the answer.

  • You know the questions so you can't see well, whether you want Susie.

  • Yeah.

  • Yeah.

  • Frank were writing a letter with drafting a letter.

  • At the moment, aren't we about all of the public sector nuances?

  • Do you want to just touch on a couple of the others?

  • We've had the accounting, the accounting for the I.

  • R.

  • 35 which I know I've been working on a lot with you, but we've that's got a little bit further now, hasn't it?

  • The parenting up, it's been ready.

  • What we've raised it with how financial reporting faculty and also without you.

  • Marcie, there's obviously been concerned about If, actually should you do it, that's all gross And the compass accounts and hmrc guidance at the moment is saying the net approach.

  • So I think we clearly need to resolve that with the Farsi so that those conversations owns, as I understand it to still ongoing, Yes, but hopefully that guidance will be that effectively, I think consistency of approach potentially gross or net either Could do.

  • But you gotta be consistent.

  • Think is where we want t get to on.

  • I think that, you know, we'll see what support support that.

  • Okay.

  • And then just linking this back because we're talking about a specific part of the employment issues.

  • I suppose we're just looking at the i r 35 PFCs and that sort of thing.

  • But we've got the wider issue.

  • Haven't we have the whole employment rights and on tape, I mean, the tailor review, of course, was published July last year on the government responded to it in February on, then launched four consultations of their own.

  • So employment status and enforcement of employment rights, agency workers and transparency on Goes will close now.

  • So with absolute submitted comments, all those But the big news this morning.

  • Yeah, looks like the Supreme Court have given that judgment in the Pimlico plumbers, which is an employment law case.

  • But it looks like Pimlico plumbers, the people who was arguing that they were workers of one unanimously, apparently not.

  • They're not self employed.

  • So another sort of brick in seemingly that's just that's just the employment element, not tax law.

  • Side of things.

  • Well, there's be no underemployment.

  • The employment law infection.

  • You could have three status is, of course, a tax on.

  • It's up for debate ist where we take one was in the future.

  • But Supreme Court has just said that these people were not self employed for employment law purposes.

  • Okay, well, we got lots of work to do on that one.

  • I think starting with our letter that we are writing to government outline again issues that we've got in public Sector One consultation that we have responded to the V A T registration threshold, which came off the back of the O.

  • T s report that must have been last year Now looking at whether it's at the right level or it should be lowered or increase.

  • We did a short survey.

  • Didn't say yes, we did.

  • Well, the government issued a call for evidence on it on.

  • We did do some medical survey ourselves.

  • I mean, it's not statistically past, but actually it was pretty consistent with what we've said in our response to the OT ESAs well, which on statistics as I remember were that half of the respondents thought that actually, the fact my shoulder be increase about 1/3 thought it was fine as it is, about six thought it should be lowered, and that was actually quite consistent with what we said last year.

  • So I think overall, you know the message coming out of it is that the V a t the registration fresher is actually a major simplification for small businesses and started 5 5000 It was 1973 73 Wait today, fat indexed up.

  • It would be about 50,000.

  • But back in the 1992 93 the government decided T actually increases significantly.

  • A simplification for you have our members, by and large, is that it really?

  • Still, in fact, in many ways it holds more than I did them because of get more increases in the legislation.

  • And I think we were talking Joe well, me about this kind of fear that if it isn't lowered the locations elsewhere, yes, the making tax digital it's linked to the V A.

  • T is linked to about threshold.

  • So if it's lowered, presumably that means they would need to extend that to more people.

  • So then or that would undo all the good we did getting them to delay it.

  • I think that's entirely right.

  • Of course.

  • You know, double whammy of then I think not only making touched digital, but potentially keeping digital records.

  • So for small businesses hitting you in the face, financial implications for the businesses that may be, at the moment are managing the trade.

  • You know, that's a comfort level without having to register.

  • Okay.

  • All right.

  • Thank you for that.

  • Moving on.

  • Let's cover the next big one, If that's okay.

  • I think Frank employee benefit trusts have been sort of simmering away in the background.

  • I did actually see une mail come around from hmrc about their talking points webinars about the settlements and paying them paying the loan charge.

  • Do you want to just remind us How do you feel drawn the short straw on this one, Sarah Kiss.

  • I would probably have Mr Bickley here talking about it, but yes, I mean, it's been kicking around for a long time, isn't as an issue.

  • I mean, I think it's first really started us in the eighties and then clearly in the nineties, we started to sort of see it happening in a big way.

  • So on that we've had various tax cases on it.

  • In particular, we had the landmark Rangers decision Supreme Court decision last year back in July, where effectively they came up with them, almost bowled a googly, so to speak that they thought that these payments when they even put into the trust, were in respect of employment and shit about p a y deducted, which wasn't feel like where the cases were starting from.

  • But I think you know, the real problem coming up against here is that we've got the finance number two act night 2017 last year.

  • So we could now get this employee laden charge up, which is potentially really draconian.

  • So what if you fact, we have a loan outstanding at the sixth of April 2019 then effectually.

  • The benefit of that is going to be bought into tax.

  • But the real sting in the tail is that it's going to apply in relation to any loan you've had.

  • Outstanding post six of April 1999.

  • So 20 years is potentially going to be born into tax comes six of April 2019.

  • I mean, that is a major.

  • There's been a lot of fuel Roary about Is it a retrospective?

  • So But the fact is, you know, we've got the rules, so it's going to be a major problem for a lot of people.

  • So, as you said, sir, I mean, what a team to get out of it on dhe the options.

  • Firstly, I think our that h.

  • Marcie are trying to encourage people to settle.

  • So a CE you mentioned, you know, that there's a settlement effects the opportunity out there, which has at last week I mean, the deadline of Richard was the third most of mine, but they've actually extended to the charity of September.

  • But I'm not sure quite what one reason to that.

  • But hopefully maybe this is major for a lot of people on.

  • I think people are just waking up to it.

  • So I think h.

  • Marcie it came to try and get settlements thing, and I think they want to get closure on leave on.

  • So people do need to look at the settlement opportunity on and see what they can do.

  • Well, I was.

  • The other thing is, you know you can repay the lane before the six of April 2 2019.

  • If you do that, then I think we think you should be okay.

  • But I think there's still question marks about, particularly after Rangers about where they do get finality on.

  • So I think there's question marks still there, and I was.

  • The other thing is, if you know, if you got the loan, then comes six of April.

  • Potentially, you need Thio.

  • So we're already seeing a lot of member concerns can through about this.

  • So I think we'll probably do need toe, have a very close look at it.

  • But I think people are really going to need to look very carefully at the various options because each case will be different and doing nothing is just not an option.

  • Well, I mean, everywhere you look, you can't just do nothing.

  • I mean, you've got step.

  • The government have now made it abundantly clear that these sorts of arrangements are beyond the pale, and you can't just ignore it.

  • So we might be looking to do thinking in that space again.

  • We did a lot of work on the consultations, and the draft legislation didn't way, but we might be we might revisit and see what we've got on our on our new website way did.

  • But I think we're now wants to move to the problems of implementation.

  • And I would just say I think hmrc are very keen to try and settle, and I have talked a lot about time to pay on particularly it's a whole range of people went into these, I think, from the people who knew exactly what they were doing to people who were almost forced into the war, didn't realize eso think hmrc alive two different categories of people.

  • But I think that's probably gonna be a lot to do before the sixth of April 2019.

  • So I think we will be reviewing it, quite what we might.

  • Significant data is an MTV judges Brexit.

  • Why well, onto happier new.

  • But we just mentioned one of them.

  • Should we talk about making tax digital way?

  • Do you love it?

  • Don't wait.

  • I think we should probably mention it.

  • So in terms of where we are, the pilots are ongoing for income tax and theeighty.

  • There's about 20 software developers in the income tax pilot, so you might say that's not as many as we might have thought.

  • But we have got well, you know that's not coming in until 2020 the earliest there are or software products listed now on golf dot UK, so people can start looking at what's out there.

  • That's absolute for Iris on Dhe Rhino.

  • And the pilot has also just been extended to those who have property income.

  • So mammals can now join the pilot as well as a self employed.

  • So that's where we are with income tax on the V, A t side of things that one is not in public beater testing just yet.

  • I know as a more number off developers are in the private testing with HMRC, but I suppose we know that spreadsheets are unacceptable.

  • Link.

  • We're expecting to see this in the back.

  • Notice the undated that notice when we get a bit more on that.

  • But we know that spreadsheets will be okay.

  • Um, and we know that some bridging software to take the data almost make it cloud based and send it directly to HMRC will be made available by software developers.

  • So for V a.

  • T.

  • I think the thinking is that the majority who are on.

  • The spreadsheets will continue to do that, but obviously the messages to get on board, to try and be digital and to think about how your practice operates on your client's operate.

  • But in the time frame we have spreadsheets could be a useful, short term, medium term solution.

  • That sounds one thing we actually did learn last week when we met with our software advisory group, which is the professional body software developers and HMRC.

  • There's a bit of a revelation about the business tax account because, as I understand, agents can have access.

  • Do you have access to the business tax account?

  • But even represented clients will need to act times going there themselves.

  • Um, if they're managing their agents, if they need to confirm personal information, those sorts of things that won't be done outside via email, that will be done through the business tax account.

  • And it's not that easy to set one off.

  • Well, no, I Yeah, some clients have difficulty getting into i t issues on dhe.

  • We found a great deal of difficulty, say, getting clients set up for a Ted.

  • I mean, some of those admittedly are overseas and they're not used to UK systems, but it has bean really difficult.

  • No, we can't see what they can see, So we can't If the revenue critic help by mirroring the screen so we could say, Well, you should.

  • This is what you should see.

  • So the duel, Yeah, you can talk it through, maybe number the boxes, that sort of thing.

  • But it is really difficult because you can't From what I heard that what the d A s meeting the other week Hey, to Marcie are struggling with some of getting the agent.

  • Yeah, actually, access to be able to see and do have your client do is probably gonna be over a longer period of time that maybe they were actually, we have just heard about a number of projects H.

  • Marcy projects in general that are being sort of put on a back burner if you like, or they're not being prioritized.

  • And John Thompson wrote, Wrote to the Treasury on Making Tax Digital for individuals is one of those.

  • It was confirmed.

  • It's still happening about slow pace.

  • Do you know where the which bits they're not looking at the moment?

  • It I don't think I think it might around.

  • Simple assessment may be moving some groups into that You're not a priority at the moment.

  • Um, I think I actually think Caroline is written a news item on that one.

  • So I think there's been some developments littering this 24.

  • Okay, lovely.

  • Right.

  • Moving on, then.

  • Shall we talk about your website?

  • Brief Leans Frank, do you want to know what it's been two year projects in a work in progress?

  • It's been a two year project on people like Sarah and my colleagues, a neater, for instance, and been very involved.

  • But also our digital content team have been working very closely with us.

  • But, I mean, what we were looking to do was to come up with a website that was much more intuitive, but in particular that we have a lot of tax material in one place because there's quite a lot of tax material across the seed into your side.

  • And it was pretty fragmented, I think is the library content faculty content and then general axis touches on suddenly things That s o you know, we got all articles done by, say, the special interest groups, for instance, so trying to bring it.

  • I wanted to.

  • One place would also developed the hub idea, which, of course, you've started using with empty D, which seems to be very successful.

  • So cleaner, much better navigation all under one roof.

  • Onda feedback, we have to say far is that 90% people went into the site, found what they were looking for.

  • Very good.

  • So I think we're way we carry on developments.

  • We've got a nine or 35 you know, develop and people need to go to now is I c e w dot com forward slash tax.

  • On that gets you everything that we have on tax and then you can choose by topic.

  • If you're a faculty member, you could just go to the faculty pages to see what your exclusive content is.

  • Hopefully much easier journey for people.

  • We'll continue to develop it.

  • Excellent.

  • One thing that I've skipped over I don't know how I could finance Bill just keeping you on your toes.

  • And finance number three Phil, I believe that's right.

  • A lot.

  • Of course, by the time it comes, we get it.

  • It'll be the finance at 2000.

  • Yes.

  • When are we expecting the bill.

  • Six of what sort of things we did.

  • The response to entrepreneurs really games for donations, that there's a few things that will be in there, that we've got the royalties withholding tax provisions, which potentially gonna be starting six.

  • Wait 29 maybe something on the intangible fixed assets.

  • There's something about the 2000 to 3 in the post holes into perspective.

  • I mean, the other thing as well as these profit fragmentation rules, which I think we'll go ahead.

  • But I think we're gonna get draft laws is on those as well.

  • But the response I mean, we didn't submit our response that long ago because the consultation deadline didn't shut that long again a few weeks ago.

  • I think it wants, but I think you know where the general view Waas.

  • Why'd you need all these rules?

  • Because potentially a lot of it seemed almost like Beijing on you got same.

  • The other provisions on the face but you could be using way weren't over enamored way weren't against the principle of trying to stop this sort of activity.

  • But we think really they've got all the tools they already need, what they need to do is get on a tackle it with their tools, okay?

  • And we should see consultation responses, presumably before we get the bill time.

  • Okay, so July's looking busy.

  • Holiday holiday point taken, Frank, we'll say, looked at the Treasury Select Committee.

  • Enquiries.

  • Didn't Lee.

  • There was one on the 80 avoidance invasion.

  • We did very briefly.

  • I mean, the Treasury Committee and a subcommittee off it had three enquiries.

  • Running the eight C on the tax camp was the main committee then also tax avoidance and evasion and tax enquiries on managing disputes.

  • So there have been three of them running.

  • We submitted some evidence to all of those Onda the moment we've had, there will be some evidence sessions starting next week, but be on the tax enquiries have been called.

  • We have being approached that, but we are way may know we won't be going next week, but I know some of our other members will be, but we might be doing another one, but I suspect we'll be seeing more evidence sessions going forward.

  • But at the moment they're not public.

  • Our responses, but hopefully we'll have permission from available something else that I Just remember this one is that we have the hots report on savings income.

  • Jill, we were talking about this earlier because one of the nine recommendations is to review the personal savings and ours.

  • I Dave, please wait to weaponize on that in the last year or so ago and just trying to work through, well, different permutations.

  • And, you know, there were problems with the software.

  • I'm coming out with different.

  • It's just been a nightmare.

  • It is such a lot of extra work, and yes.

  • Okay.

  • We'll see what comes of that menace.

  • Okay.

  • Spoken from the heart.

  • Spoken from the heart?

  • Yes, just bonkers.

  • Okay.

  • I think that probably gives us some time.

  • Just thio go through our upcoming events.

  • We've got quite a lot on on.

  • We have a loss weapon are tomorrow.

  • So corporate losses on the new rules for carry forward losses.

  • That's with myself.

  • Pete Miller.

  • That's tomorrow at 11 a.m. And you can still register if you haven't already.

  • What about 800 people about one That's m t D numbers.

  • Almost thing is clearly in the fact that it's, you know, building only impacting companies with large profits.

  • But actually through.

  • The admin is a requirement for real on.

  • Then.

  • We have a property income weapon on the ninth of July.

  • Which assume, or we go through some practical bits and pieces.

  • We've got the Wyman symposium.

  • Yes, the White on the 11th July.

  • So that's going to be the title of it is employment status.

  • What's the answer?

  • So somebody tell us what we got four speakers on.

  • There's been a notice put up on the website, so if anyone is interested in attending, please drop it on the Web site should be exciting.

  • And our flagship and your tax conference.

  • We have a new date, which is Friday the 28th off September and we have a range of speakers.

  • We've got poor Lapland speaking on your president and Rebecca Benny Worth Peter Rainy.

  • Lots of other people on the details of that are going on 12 website next week.

  • We'll be able to communicate.

  • So yes, lots going on.

  • I think that's probably all we have time for today.

  • So thank you very much for watching the next tax talk will be on Wednesday, the 18th of July, which is one week later than usual.

  • But the needs on teeth will be hosting that one.

  • So we hope.

  • See there.

  • Thank you very much for watching Kickabout.

Hello and welcome to June's addition off tax talk.

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IR35と新たな課題。TAXtalk 2018年6月号 (IR35 and new challenges: TAXtalk June 2018)

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    林宜悉 に公開 2021 年 01 月 14 日
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