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  • Jeremy and Maryland.

  • Hey, how's it going?

  • Mad.

  • Pretty good, right?

  • And Jan, this is great is the dream team.

  • I'm happy to be here to give you.

  • I wanted to give you a quick update.

  • Thank that Tracy.

  • I'm sorry, Tracy, Tracy is here, too.

  • And so when you call us the Dream team Oh, where are you?

  • Hey, you guys are all amazing.

  • I just This is the one that I saw in you two, probably eight years ago that I was screaming at my computer because it was like, I could argue my religion so much better this than I realized.

  • Now I can't.

  • Awesome.

  • What did you have for us?

  • If you Yeah, I wanted to give you a quick update.

  • Uh, first, I called you a couple of months ago, asking for advice, you and John Michael.

  • Anyway, Ron and I was asking for advice on reaching the topic of my sister's theism or non theism as it stood.

  • Um, and I finally got a chance to talk to her about a month ago in a ton.

  • How's she been an atheist for about a year.

  • And she she actually wanted to talk to me about it.

  • It's amazing off something like that happening.

  • Yeah.

  • Yeah.

  • So thank you very much for that advice.

  • But I did have a topical aren't just today which was, er, as it's written there, toxicity in the online skeptic community.

  • So, um, I know that she went to mythic con this year and the experience was probably a mixed bag.

  • Um, so when you came back, it was a couple of months ago and I haven't had a chance to call in since then But I wanted to discuss with you said that you've got a chance to meet Star Gone Along with Xuan Head and Armored Skeptic.

  • And you said you had a problem with Stark on which I agree with you on.

  • There's a lot of problems I have with are gone But you didn't have a problem with Armand African Xuan head So my my quarrel with that is that I think armored skeptic and Xuan head represents kind of a really divisive movement within what people are calling the skeptics fear, like the YouTube skeptic community.

  • So I need I need to clear this out.

  • I was thinking about so I tend to judge people based on my interactions with him.

  • Unlike, and this is a good cautionary tale as well for everybody out there in Twitter land.

  • Stop assuming that everybody you interact with has seen all the same YouTube clips that you have.

  • I have never watched until Myth con.

  • I've never seen a single minute of Sargon Xuan head or armored skeptic.

  • I don't watch those videos on YouTube.

  • You know what else?

  • I don't listen to podcasts.

  • I've been on stage with Sam Harris seven times.

  • I don't think maybe it's 56 whatever.

  • I don't listen to his podcast.

  • I've heard snippets of his podcast appears.

  • Time my wife started the godless bitches podcast.

  • The only time I listen to that was when I was actually in the room or editing it to post it.

  • I don't listen to podcasts, so when I say that I had a problem with Sargon, it was because we had a conversation for about an hour and 1/2.

  • The first part of it was discussing philosophy was fine.

  • It's like you have with anybody else, and the second part of it was awful, where he decided to go down this road, but wrote of trying to claim that he was right because he had more Twitter followers.

  • And that's when I realized that he was an asshole and he was drunk and it was pointless to continue having a conversation with him.

  • And then the next day at the convention, he said all kinds of awful garbage that got massive cheers from the deplorables who were in attendance.

  • Now my interaction with shoe and armored.

  • We had pleasant short conversations.

  • I didn't have any any problems with them and what they said on stage, I understood.

  • I didn't necessarily agree with all of it, but I got I understood where they were coming from in what they were complaining about.

  • And I'm sorry that I'm open Thio seeing nuance enoughto where I'm not going to just denounce anybody and everybody I've been under fire, Don't know for two weeks now.

  • That's over now, but for not saying exactly what somebody else wanted me to say.

  • Timeframe that they wanted me to say it.

  • Well, that's never gonna happen.

  • I'm not gonna pass your purity test, not yours.

  • The people I'm talking to and I don't care, it doesn't bother me at all that I'm not passing here to test, because what I'm trying to do is make the world a better place, have better conversations.

  • I'm gonna fail.

  • Uh, I'm gonna end up associated or on stage with somebody who somebody else thinks is terrible.

  • And it doesn't matter whether whether it's just me and Tracy onstage, somebody thinks I'm terrible.

  • Somebody thinks Tracy is terrible, or if I'm on stage with whoever, So the only reason to clear that up is it almost sounded like, Oh, Matt has a problem with Sargon.

  • But he's okay with armored skeptic.

  • And all I'm saying is I didn't have any issues with them.

  • Then on I understood where they were coming from.

  • Now they might have the most awful content that I've just never seen and never engaged with.

  • I just don't know.

  • Sure.

  • I certainly wouldn't expect you to hate somebody after one conversation or hate them at all like Oh, that's happening.

  • Carl Benjamin.

  • Yeah.

  • Yeah, that was an easy one.

  • Oh, it's TV.

  • It's even easier once you watch one of his videos.

  • But, um, I I just think that there is.

  • There's a difficulty these days and referring to yourself a skeptic online.

  • I try and be very open about you know what I believe and it's the difficulty becomes that there is.

  • There's a there.

  • There's a decently large movement and I'm sure you you can probably attest for how large it is because you had the whole crowds cheering for star gone essentially calling somebody too ugly to rape on stage.

  • And ah, I think that and I I bring apartment skeptic and chilling head cause I know that you've been around with him before, So I didn't want to bring out somebody that you would you were completely unfamiliar with.

  • They think that they're in, in their own way, a part of it.

  • Um, essentially, what happened online in the last couple of years is that the word skeptic has become synonymous with anti PC Auntie S J w anti feminism anti, you know, science denial.

  • But the science denial they're referring to is not in any way current science, and it's not in any way good science.

  • Uh, I don't I don't agree.

  • What?

  • Yeah, I don't agree with that, either.

  • And what I would say is that I think that there's a number of self proclaimed skeptics out there who think that because they've rejected, you know, Bigfoot in God and, you know, um, lots of other conspiracy theories and stuff that somehow they have a lock on the truth, whatever that is, no matter what it is and that they don't have to continue to do the hard work to come to the right conclusion for the right reason.

  • And that's the part that I was.

  • You kind of suggested that skepticism has become synonymous with these positions, and I don't even know that the case, I think not.

  • Not not in any, not in any traditional sense.

  • There's a lot of online communities I think specifically on you to get out of them things.

  • This is the thing.

  • And I'll tell you this if this if this is comforting at all, all right.

  • On several the events we did there were 35 3600 people in the audience on dhe.

  • I managed to get to talk to quite a few of them afterwards.

  • Most people I have no idea who these people are.

  • You just named.

  • What's going on?

  • Their view of this is Hey, we're going out to listen to so and so talk because there's a big podcast or they go to the facilities like the online.

  • There's the YouTube community.

  • Then there's the block community.

  • Then there's the convention community.

  • Then there's the event community.

  • It's not like there's one secular community or one skeptic community or one atheist community, and what ends up happening is some of the loudest voices.

  • If you're hanging out in the Twittersphere, uh, end up being perceived as representative Justus when the news reports yet another school shooting.

  • The perception is that these things are increasing when there's evidence to show that they are decreasing.

  • But that's it doesn't matter because one is too many.

  • And so way we live in a world now where you're constantly being fed through algorithms and through who you've decided to follow.

  • Maur information that supports your view, and what I've tried to do is get out there and get in the thick of it and find out as much as I can.

  • I'm not saying my sample sets even remotely perfect.

  • What people think about all this and the truth is most of the online drama and fighting in the you know, the red pill blue pill in Sal Baba, blah, blah, blah.

  • The overwhelming majority of people who would consider themselves part of the secular community.

  • I know nothing about it at all.

  • I I would agree with you that yes, the overwhelming majority probably would Would would be completely outside of it.

  • I think my worry is more for people, like probably the more moderate voices on within these communities, though you've got people on YouTube like cosmic skeptic and rationality rules.

  • You are.

  • I'm sure you I think you might have heard of caustic skeptic.

  • I think you guys might have talked before.

  • We have way.

  • We're gonna do video together.

  • We haven't got around to do it, but I just did a video with rationality rule the other day.

  • So the guy and the difficulties that I'm I see there is that you've got people who and this happened with underfoot back in the day, to a certain extent as well.

  • Uh, you've got people who may fall on one side or the other of any particular issue, but sort of have to placate very, I would say, even religious nonsense to maintain their fandoms among the skeptic community online and rationality rules before he does the takedown of Jordan Peterson's definition of truth.

  • You have to placate to Jordan Peterson.

  • Just so his fans from Terrible Park is.

  • He knows the Sands probably loved Jordan Peterson.

  • I watched that video kind of difficult.

  • It's one of the handful that I watched before he and I worked together or right after.

  • I don't think that that's placating.

  • I think that he is engaging in the sort of honest conversation because I'm gonna sit on stage with Jordan Peterson in a couple weeks in Toronto, and I think he's incredibly intelligent.

  • There are many things that we agree on, and then there are some things that we disagree on.

  • And then there are some times where it sounds like words.

  • Soup is pouring out of his mouth instead of anything rational.

  • I mean, they're people, referring to him as the Deepak Chopra of Christianity.

  • I'm not going to sit down generally, what is better in that situation if you if you have a message you want to get across, I think the best thing is for me to acknowledge where we agree to acknowledge that we're both rational, intelligent individuals and we're both gonna make mistakes and then go after the the point where we have some disagreement if I walk out on stage and go man is so awesome to be here with the Deepak Chopra of Christianity.

  • What kind of word salad you're gonna throw at us today, Jordan.

  • Not only just not that not accurately represent what I think of him on the whole, but it's absolutely poison for a conversation.

  • So what?

  • I think Steven did.

  • You know, I don't think that was placating.

  • I think he was saying, Look, I'm not saying that this guy is an idiot or that he is not knowledgeable.

  • I'm not saying that we don't agree.

  • I'm saying that when asked about truth.

  • His view of truth is a bizarre redefinition that almost nobody should recognize.

  • I would agree, but like it was in the specific way words that he used, I would I would find it difficult.

  • Maybe this is just because of my own personal British.

  • I would find it difficult taking a taking an objective look at the at Peterson's arguments to refer to anything he says as a staunch defense of biological fact, I maybe that's just my personal view is getting in the way, But it's difficult for me to hear that and think, Are you actually looking at this in a skeptical, in rational view?

  • Are you?

  • Are you hearing his words because you agree with them?

  • Or do you just think that your fans won't like it if you start talking about him?

  • Well, I can tell you this, Um, I put videos up on patriots, and that means that the overwhelming majority of the that's where my income comes from and I've been doing it for three plus years, and not once have I ever.

  • I tried to say anything or tried to avoid saying something based on whether or not somebody was gonna donate again.

  • Um, my, my entire mission is to tell you what I think and why, and to challenge what other people believe and to do It is honestly and fairly as possible.

  • And if that means I get 20,000 patrons, you're donating money and I'm filthy rich, awesome.

  • And if it means I lose all of them, I'll find another way to make money, and I'll keep putting out the content that I'm putting out.

  • I think that I think it might be a mistake.

  • Thio start suggesting motivations that Oh, I have to say this about Jordan or lose fans.

  • Yeah, I think that kind of pandering pretty well guarantees that you're gonna become irrelevant, at least in.

  • I mean, in our circles, we're not politicians, so you know, which is good, cause yeah, I wouldn't be elected to anything.

  • I got a response to that.

  • Well, people are coming to your patron for you.

  • They kind of know what?

  • You're what you're about.

  • I mean, you've been you've been a very open and vocal face among the atheist and skeptic and secular communities for a very long time now.

  • But, I mean, they know what they kind of know what they're getting with you.

  • I mean, on YouTube, it's a little different because you've got it.

  • You've got to build an audience from similarities and when But stevens on a major.

  • And anyway, no, no.

  • I mean, the thing about that, though, is that it?

  • The fact that people kind of know what they're getting with Matt doesn't stop them from coming at him sometimes and accusing him of being Oh, I see.

  • The Feminazi has got to you.

  • You know, the S J W's are have taken over, Matt.

  • All kinds of I've been accused of anything and everything from both sides from both sides.

  • I am the only S J w mansplaining m r a jackass on the planet.

  • Evident.

  • Thank you.

  • It's been fun.

  • You Maybe you may be right that there's a part of that there, but so we're running short on time, As much colors.

  • What way?

  • Danced around it.

  • What is it that you're concerned about?

  • And do you have something we can do about it?

  • I guess my concern is that whether or not we should really be focusing a little more on calling out the more aggressively toxic voices within the community because it seems to me like you've got Ah, just a couple of weeks ago there was, I guess they've made what about two months ago?

  • Now it was this guy antiwar excuse Big in the He doesn't even call himself a skeptic, but he's picked within the skeptics.

  • Sphere broke the YouTube livestream record by having a conversation with Sargon.

  • And, uh, like several white nationalists, including Richard Spencer.

  • We're essentially all day dip a circle jerk each other about you know why we should start in that state and argue over the exact implementation of it, referring to it as a, you know, nuance.

  • Both sides conversation.

  • They broke the record for viewership.

  • They broke records for donations.

  • I mean, I think they made something like $100,000 that not on donations alone.

  • And it was It was essentially very specifically white nationalist referring to themselves as Nazis.

  • I think that's a very extreme version of it, but I think we're seeing similar things within that community.

  • And I wonder, do you think that there is a responsibility for the people trying to look at push for positive atheism, positive skepticism, its secularism?

  • Thio more vocal about calling these guys out?

  • How do you be more vocal about calling them out?

  • Uh, I was.

  • First of all, I didn't not 100% sure I don't have a platform 112.

  • I didn't even hear about this.

  • And I don't even the only person you named who I even know is Carl, Um, and vaguely know him.

  • I think one of the things is Let's okay.

  • Somebody broke a YouTube record.

  • Do we know what the impact of that was.

  • And aren't there other voices out there offering counting opinions?

  • I bet you somebody has gone through that video and fist it and basically gone line by line.

  • And here's what's wrong and what's wrong.

  • Um, do we even know that it was actually a record that was broken?

  • Or did they just issue a press release saying that it was It was a record that was broken?

  • I look good after.

  • I mean, the difficulty I'm saying is they're also not above the platform and people who are speaking against them.

  • There's a couple of people.

  • Nobody's deep black.

  • Nobody is de platforming more people than the far left.

  • But that's just a fact nobody has been advocating for de platforming more than people on the far left.

  • That's that's accurate.

  • You're right, that's that's true.

  • But I think they're their idea of we should be clapped platform people is that we should harass the website until they see it.

  • Things are way, whereas these guys idea of the platforming is we should, you know, spam flag tweets.

  • We should, you know, calling accusations about this guy being a pedophile.

  • I mean, there's a couple of people, but some of those things you contain some of those things you can actually take action about if somebody is calling in threats and we've had people call the venues where where people were gonna be, not necessarily where I was, you know, they did this against midcon.

  • Myth gone had to get extra insurance and security.

  • Um, the I don't I don't know that that is remotely a good way to make your case in much the same way that some of my friends air advocates for punching Nazis and I am vehemently opposed to it because I think it's a mind strategically stupid and also humanistic Lee immoral.

  • And you have to recognize that some of this is the consequence of allowing people to express their ideas.

  • Because for every person who thinks that, well, hopefully I was gonna say for every person who thinks Richard Spencer's trouble, that somebody thinks that I'm terrible, Hopefully that's not quite the case, but But the point is it.

  • You know, as long as we're talking about speech, I don't know what can be done other than expressing opposition combating bad speech with better speech making sure that you know, for example, nobody deserves a platform or deserves an audience or has a right like I'm on stage during the Q and A.

  • I'm offering some of my time to that person to ask a question, and it's still my time.

  • I can cut them off whenever I want.

  • I can have them escorted from the building.

  • Those are options.

  • When we're here on the TV show, we could have a guest in I open.

  • Let's imagine for a minute that something overcame us and Jen and I decided to have Carl come in here and talk at any moment.

  • We can escort him out of the building to thunderous applause, and we've done nothing wrong.

  • Free speech, from the standpoint of the government to make sure that we all have the right to say things without consequences and t to be on public land to stand on the steps of the Capitol, provided you do the paperwork toe reserve a time.

  • This is a private show in our private building, and people need to realize that universities, even public universities have put restrictions on things you can table in this area.

  • You can preach in this area.

  • Um, and they get to do that.

  • But if there are going to have a rule that says student groups get to bring in their invited speakers and the young conservatives decide that they're going to bring in Milo and the godless, the secular student alliance decides they're gonna bring in me.

  • If you start setting up policies specifically to shut down Milo, you're probably shut Downing shutting me down as well and others.

  • And so hey, protest.

  • Because students at universities are the customers and the university has to make a decision what kind of reputation we want.

  • Where is this going to cost us money?

  • Are people gonna want to come to our school?

  • There's lots of different avenues that don't involve property destruction that don't involve punching people that don't involve calling in inaccurate threats of Oh, you're going to be in danger.

  • It actually happened to an event here in Austin that I wasn't actually a part of.

  • But I was a party to, um where people started calling the venue to say, Oh, you're getting ready to have ah dangerous rapist on stage.

  • And that's not necessarily the case.

  • I don't know I went, I went off on a side track there, but I get the frustration.

  • But I also see that what's happening a lot in the community is I got my bubble.

  • You got your bubble and your bubble is pointing out all of these things and my bubbles pointing out all these things.

  • Um, and I don't know how we encourage people to get out of there bubbles.

  • And I'm not saying that bubbles are always bad.

  • I blocked half a dozen people that I've known for years on Facebook just in the last couple weeks, and I think that they deserved it in the sense that I'm not creating a bubble.

  • People who agree with me, I'm removing particular toxic elements that I don't have to deal with on Facebook.

  • But almost every single one of those people that I blocked is somebody that if they wanted to do a podcast interview to discuss our differences, I'd be open to that.

  • I would sit down with almost any one of them and say, Yeah, let's hash this out.

  • We'll do an episode but that doesn't mean I want it on my Facebook, Page said.

  • You know, it's all Mattes.

  • Matt Censoring mayor.

  • No, I'm not.

  • It's I don't know.

  • Now this all became about me instead of the issue.

  • So let's move on.

  • Well, I think I think I see exactly where you coming from.

  • Yeah, I just wanted Thio bring up something you initially talked about.

  • You know, labels.

  • Skeptic is kind of having baggage.

  • Now, this isn't really new, because for a long time, we've been treated to people who call themselves skeptics, and we dig into it a little bit.

  • You find out their climate change deniers or their 9 11 truthers or, you know, they're flat.

  • Earthers are Christians.

  • Yeah.

  • The Christians there any number of other people, but subscribe to some pretty out their beliefs.

  • So, um, the word has had, um, a little problem with nailing down exactly what the individual means.

  • It's almost not quite as bad as someone announcing that they're Christian, and you don't even know what that means.

  • Or are they the studio or with atheist?

  • And so when someone says I'm a skeptic, it's one of those situations where you really have to ask them.

  • What do you mean by that?

  • Yeah, And you have to do it, realizing that even the most ardent advocates of skepticism who attempt to apply it as thoroughly as possible are going to be wrong about stuff and they're gonna have their special.

  • Martin Gardner, primarily identified as the father of modern scientific skepticism, believed in God.

  • And the best thing that I can say about that is that Martin Gardner also acknowledged that he wasn't being skeptical about God.

  • It was just something he preferred to believe.

  • It worked for him.

  • He never claimed that this was a result of his skepticism.

  • As a matter of fact, he pointed out that he thought atheists had the better arguments.

  • But this was just the, you know, the one thing that he wasn't putting up there for his skepticism, which is about as good as you could do, is the skeptic is to say, Yeah, I got this belief, which I know isn't supported by skepticism.

  • Um, and that's the best I can do, is acknowledge it's not.

  • I'm not being skeptical enough on this issue, okay?

  • But I don't know that there's any any answers other than maybe everybody should delete Facebook and Twitter on Duh.

  • I don't go out.

  • You don't realise YouTube comments that I don't know that I actually like going out and talking to people like person to person.

  • Uh, because it's amazing the shit people don't say when you're standing face to face with them that they will say under there, you know, account 452 anonymous Twitter thing and and also I think he you know I love the Internet.

  • It's, you know, it's where religions go to die, but it's got massive appeal and there's loads of information.

  • That's probably too much information.

  • There's probably not enough access to be ableto to go through invent specific information.

  • And so you're constantly at risk of going.

  • Ah, well, Jen posted this, so that's good enough.

  • I know, Jenny, she's not gonna post some garbage.

  • Oh, Matt Post goes in garbage.

  • Every one of us have.

  • I've shared.

  • And I'll tell you what I really hate.

  • I used to love the onion.

  • I can't stand it or any other satire anymore because it is too close to home.

  • Well, not only is it too close to home, but there's too many people who are otherwise reasonable and incredibly intelligent who are gonna fall for it.

  • share it.

  • And because that person is reasonable, intelligent, the people on their list who may not be so much are also gonna share it.

  • And I can't count the number of times I don't post that much on Facebook.

  • And I don't comment that much, but I'd say probably 5% of every post I've ever made or ever comment I've ever made that wasn't about like a 20 page drama.

  • Thing has been This is a satire article.

  • This is a satire article because it's so easy to believe.

  • And there was one that's evidently real that I thought was satire just yesterday.

  • Which is that is it in Pennsylvania where they're gonna arm students and teachers with rocks?

  • Oh, yeah.

  • How real is that?

  • Is that really?

  • I don't know.

  • Oh, God, I didn't look into it too much, but it was from several news sources that look credible that weren't satire.

  • But that's the other thing is some of these credible news sources have a satire section.

  • Yeah, that should never be allowed way.

  • I mean, you've heard the latest controversy right?

  • In California, they're teaching kids math using Arabic numerals.

  • Oh, my goodness.

  • Arabic Believe America.

  • Oh, my gosh.

  • The Muslims We're going to take over here for a law.

  • Yeah, we should be used in Roman numeral.

  • Oh, crap.

  • That's Catholics.

  • Anyway, I'm gonna try and get some more calls before we get done, but I appreciate the time.

  • I appreciate you guys.

  • Thank you very much, madam.

  • Thank you very much.

  • You guys have a great day.

Jeremy and Maryland.

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懐疑派コミュニティにおける分裂と女嫌い|Jeremy - MD|無神論者の経験 22.11 (Divisions and Misogyny in the Skeptic Community | Jeremy - MD | Atheist Experience 22.11)

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    林宜悉 に公開 2021 年 01 月 14 日
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