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  • Redacted Tonight VIP with Lee Camp

  • Welcome to 'Redacted Tonight VIP.' I'm Lee Camp.

  • There are ideas that are so dangerous

  • they're not allowed on our mainstream media at all.

  • Usually the reason is because these ideas, if accepted,

  • would mean the end of our profit-over-people

  • war-for-wealth greed-over-environment wage-slavery system.

  • The Zeitgeist Movement is one of those ideas.

  • Even though it has millions of followers

  • with hundreds of chapters worldwide,

  • and films that have been gone viral

  • and been viewed over 100 million times,

  • you will never hear it uttered on a corporate media outlet.

  • Think about that! The media will talk about

  • war and death, rape and genocide,

  • pedophilia and racism.

  • They don't shy away from those things.

  • Yet the Zeitgeist Movement is too dangerous.

  • Why? Because it questions capitalism.

  • It says you are not being given the full picture

  • of what humankind is capable of.

  • It says a world without

  • poverty, war, and environmental disaster is possible.

  • And look: if it's a bad idea, if it's stupid,

  • if it's a flawed concept, then let's argue about that!

  • Let's have the discussion like f*cking adults,

  • rather than being scared of an idea,

  • terrified of a thought paradigm

  • that could upend the current cultural template.

  • Earlier today I talked with Peter Joseph,

  • the creator of the Zeitgeist films,

  • the web series 'Culture In Decline,'

  • and the Zeitgeist Movement.

  • Peter, thanks for joining me.

  • - Oh my pleasure Lee, it's great to be back on campus.

  • - And thanks for wearing the same colors as me,

  • that's very important, that people know the teams here.

  • (Peter laughs)

  • I hope to have saved humanity by the end of this interview

  • so I hope you're cool with that.

  • - That's cool; the clock is ticking, so it's all on us now.

  • - Exactly. The Zeitgeist Movement, it basically wants to

  • move beyond capitalism but

  • capitalism has done a lot of good, has it not?

  • There's been massive innovation in-…

  • massive innovation, there's been huge leaps in technology,

  • leaps in human rights for women, minorities, gay people,

  • potheads, juggalos.

  • So that's all thanks to capitalism, right?

  • - I know. Capitalism made your smartphone.

  • It basically made you Lee;

  • capitalism impregnated your mother and produced you. - Absolutely!

  • - It's just sad how people have no sense of

  • of where things have come from, through

  • knowledge and science and technology and

  • the beauty of all this scientific development that has

  • really been the underscoring element that's increased lifespans

  • and helped us. And capitalism has been along for the ride, man.

  • I've heard this over and over again,

  • and when youlook deep down,

  • all the major civil rights movement stuff- that hasn't happened

  • from anything but the outskirts.

  • That's happened from people that have been pushing things

  • like socialism as they call it.

  • I mean people talk about democratic socialism today

  • like it's some kind of new thing when FDR did it, 80 years ago.

  • And what would we do without those safeguards

  • that have helped improve things over time? so...

  • From technology to the advancement civil rights,

  • it's all based on the development of technology-

  • in part, I'm not saying that's the only issue. But if you look for example

  • the abject slavery, chattel slavery,

  • when did that really resolve? It happened when

  • automation processes and mechanization started to be applied to agriculture.

  • So if you look in tandem, we really didn't start alleviating

  • all of this labor oppression until technology started to replace it.

  • And that's of course continuing this to this day

  • with technological unemployment, - Right.

  • - and we could talk a lot about that as we go along.

  • But the trend keeps going; it's actually very powerful

  • if we can just jump on board and not fight it,

  • which is unfortunately what capitalism is now doing.

  • - Well okay, as long as you brought it up

  • let's talk about technological unemployment.

  • It's increasing exponentially, I mean with self-driving vehicles

  • we could lose a third of the current US workforce

  • or at least their jobs in, very soon, 10 years maybe.

  • And I want to hear what your plan is,

  • how you would view we should deal with that.

  • My plan is:

  • I think if we kill the robots now while they're babies

  • they wouldn't know what hit them, right?

  • - Yeah (laughing) robot wars is upon us for sure.

  • Sadly enough, it's two things

  • that have been polluting our need for labor freedom

  • and that apparently are robots and brown people

  • if you listen to American politics. But nevertheless-...

  • And of course, we'll let the orange,

  • the orange monster Donald Trump lead the way

  • with the latter of that one.

  • Technological unemployment should be a godsend, man.

  • It should be everything that we've been striving for as a species.

  • Even John Maynard Keynes, you know,

  • the early Keynesin economist famous for realizing that

  • capitalism is fundamentally unstable and we need safeguards,

  • he said, even though he thought it was going to be a minor issue, that

  • we're really resolving our economic problem.

  • Literally the economic problem of our society is

  • a lack of means, and it's scarcity.

  • And with this new capacity for efficiency

  • which is being birthed in technology that's replacing labor,

  • we should be harnessing than and happy about it,

  • and instead we're still trying tocreate jobsandcreate growth,”

  • and these arcane ideas are just gonna hit a wall.

  • And with the advent of universal basic income

  • (something that will be a big subject at

  • the ZDay event in Greece that I'll be speaking at, Zeitgeist Day,

  • we could talk about that moreso),

  • this is probably the first step to alleviate that issue,

  • to give people a standard of living fueled

  • by this increased efficiency without them having to,

  • to struggle and pay for everything.

  • And not having just the base welfare stuff that you see as well

  • which is nominal and looked down upon,

  • but to really realize that we can support society as a society

  • for the first time in human history.

  • And that's a powerful powerful state.

  • If we could just jump on board with that and stop

  • this need for labor for income,

  • and turn the tides and sayYou know what?

  • Maybe we should NOT focus on people needing jobs,

  • and focus explicitly on replacing these jobs

  • and adjusting as we go along,"

  • we'd have a much healthier society.

  • A much more peaceful society too because all the conflict

  • that happens with the scarcity reality that would be resolved.

  • It's far-reaching what this step forward could do.

  • And I'll say that I think the force is fantastic. I think

  • it's really, it's the door being cracked open by the contradiction,

  • because labor for income is needed by capitalism obviously,

  • it's the bedrock of it, and this contradiction is

  • cracking that door open for people like myself.

  • I believe in a design economy and in collaborative systems,

  • all these things have been proven to be more efficient than

  • competition and all the other myths that

  • support capitalist structure today.

  • The door's cracking open. I think we're going to push through

  • as a new generation very soon, hopefully.

  • Well nevertheless GDP, growth,

  • all that stuff is old, arcane.

  • Needless to say, you can't have a society based on growth,

  • you need a society that lives in coexistence

  • with itself and the habitat; I don't know how

  • that logic has eluded us for so long on the political ...

  • the political economic level.

  • And political economy, no one seems to talk about the

  • problem with assuming the interest of growth.

  • And of course it's like a cancer. Capital accumulation,

  • you can use that old Marxism term

  • but it's just as relevant today as it was then.

  • All the corporations, like a disease, like cancer,

  • they stretch out, and they want to get more and more,

  • they make a million dollars one year, they need to make

  • $2 million the next year, they get more employees,

  • the last thing you want to do is contract.

  • And you know, infinite growth, I think there's only one,

  • literally one type of mechanism that does that on earth

  • apart from our economy, and again that is cancer itself.

  • So it's a cancerous system and

  • something's gonna have to happen to shut this thing down

  • before it eats itself alive or we literally

  • get to that point of no return which I'd,

  • I'd say about 2030, 2040

  • when you look at the biodiversity loss, when you look at climate change,

  • you look at the debt crisis, when you look at

  • the resource overshoot: about a sixth of the way through [the year]

  • on this planet we consume more resources that we're actually

  • able to produce by the planet.

  • We need many more planets in the future, by one estimate

  • 27 more planets by 2050 if we're to keep the current rates going.

  • And the sad thing is the Global South

  • is never ever going to reach a high level of,

  • of public health and sustainability, and alleviation of poverty,

  • because all the mechanisms we're using based on growth

  • are just rapidly tearing things apart

  • to affect where the long-term repercussions are going to

  • settle down in the Global South, Africa and Latin/Central America -

  • they're the ones that are going to suffer from all this because

  • they're not going to have a chance because of all the negative externalities

  • that are being birthed from all the activity of the Global North.

  • Remember the Global North consumes everything.

  • 80% of all the goods and services produced on this planet

  • are consumed by less than 20% of the population stuck

  • in America and Europe, so it's sad.

  • - Doesn't that just mean we're winning, Peter?

  • - That's exactly what it means, we are absolutely winning!

  • it's obnoxious. - Hashtag winning.

  • To shrink that down to kind of one little point maybe mixed in

  • with what you're saying, like for example, clean water.

  • Thousands of people, especially children,

  • die every day due to lack of clean water.

  • I saw a documentary about the same guy who invented the Segway

  • invented a water purification system called Slingshot,

  • that, you know, you could dump diarrhea in one end

  • and you'd have a clean glass of water out the other end.

  • And it's affordable, it's only the size of a mini-fridge or something and

  • he's gone around to various organizations to try and

  • get those in the towns and cities in Africa and South America

  • that would need, that definitely need clean water,

  • and basically no one says that's what they do.

  • The UN says No, the Clinton Foundation says

  • we can't really do that. Ultimately,

  • he's ended up partnering somehow with Coca-Cola,

  • because they need clean water to create Coke

  • so they're willing to put some of these things in these towns

  • in order to get, use his machine for their water to make Coke.

  • So that shows capitalism works, right?

  • - (Chuckles) It's the trickle-through trickle-around affect.

  • I don't know quite how people defend it anymore.

  • No, I completely agree, if industry wants it,

  • then it will move forward, but if the individual or poverty-

  • I mean there's still people dying of tuberculosis on a massive scale in Africa.

  • Tuberculosis has been off the chart in the Global North for

  • forever, and literally the pharmaceutical companies have decided to stop

  • investigating it. In fact I believe if I remember correctly,

  • it's been 50 years since anyone has attempted to perfect

  • any treatments for tuberculosis

  • given the circumstance in the epidemic in Africa,

  • and literally they said this:

  • that it's just not profitable.

  • - Right, it does, it does come down to profit.

  • I also want to go back to something else you mentioned: basic income.

  • Do you support that in the-

  • is that like a band-aid to getting to somewhere else?

  • or is that a good idea?

  • - Oh yeah, I'd say it's less of a band-aid more of a step.

  • If we're keeping focus on basically eroding,

  • eroding this cyclical consumption,

  • competitive, scarcity, exploitative economy,

  • basic income is that first step.

  • And other steps will happen such again as,

  • as working to push for more technological unemployment

  • and applied mechanization to increase efficiency

  • and safety and all of that.

  • These are all cumulative and again they'll be talked about

  • on this event day that we're having in Greece.

  • And I don't see it as a band-aid, I see it as a step

  • as long as we keep focus on the larger order goal,

  • which in the view of the Zeitgeist Movement is,

  • is at the farthest extreme, is the removal of commerce itself.

  • We have the ability to do that. The original premise of commerce and trade

  • and all of its flaws, as effective as it has been

  • over the course of the past, you know, 2,000 years,

  • this thing is not necessary anymore because

  • what defines it is no longer applicable,

  • because we've reached high levels of efficiency; we are post-Malthusian today.

  • I think we've talked about that before on your show.

  • The Reverend Thomas Malthus came along a couple centuries ago

  • and saidYou know what? There's too many people, they're going to keep

  • reproducing and then they're just gonna die

  • because there's not enough resources on the planet,”

  • and that's what the entire political economy is based on.

  • The entire world has been based on this Malthusian view

  • which means that war is inevitable, and people really care about war

  • and how many people die.

  • Which means that disease will just be allowed to happen.

  • I don't think people sit back and want to see mass populations die off,

  • but at the same time they don't really do much to prevent it

  • because they think that's just the way it is, you know what I mean?

  • And that's I think the mindset of a lot of these people in the establishment.

  • So yeah, all of that to answer your question, these steps -

  • universal basic income,

  • applied mechanization and then

  • eventually creating a peer-to-peer and open source type of

  • design environment that eliminates the need for corporations itself,

  • where you- we have the technology to do that now.

  • We can literally create and design

  • and use engineering systems that work in a digital realm where you don't need -

  • and it's less efficient by the way -

  • to have small boardrooms and proprietary property and all of that stuff.

  • I could ramble on a lot about that but we have

  • is a massive increase in efficiency of

  • both production and creative design,

  • and both of those mechanisms that are doing that

  • are actually the antithesis of what is supported by the market system.

  • - Couldn't have said it better myself!

  • I wanna go to a quick commercial here and then I'm gonna ask you about the current

  • political climate in this country.

  • - Oh sure.

  • - I'll be right back with my guest Peter Joseph,

  • the creator of the Zeitgeist Movement.

  • Welcome back. I'm here with Peter Joseph,

  • the creator of the Zeitgeist Movement and the Zeitgeist films.

  • He also has the ZDay coming up which we'll

  • talk about in a moment.

  • Peter, I wanted to ask you about-

  • there's a lot of anger in this country, justifiably, I think,

  • people are angry. Some people are channeling it into

  • the Bernie Sanders campaign, some people are channeling it into

  • Donald Trump and racism: “Make America white again!”

  • You know, that kind of thing.

  • Some of that anger has to do with scarcity I think:

  • there's not enough money out there, there's not enough food,

  • there's not enough clean water, not enough jobs,

  • dancing in the background of rap videos which is my true dream,

  • and if we just have the right president in place

  • those problems would be solved.

  • What's wrong with that train of thought?

  • - The counter establishment dyad of Sanders and Trump which,

  • in a certain poetic sense is kind of fun -

  • I have to admit it's a very amusing and surreal environment.

  • - For entertainment value it's great.

  • - Oh that's for sure. But it also goes to show, speaking of that,

  • just how easily persuaded the general public can be as far as entertainment and

  • the news networks go where their ratings are,

  • where their corporate sponsors put the most money into.

  • So therefore you gravitate towards this belligerent known as Donald Trump.

  • (I don't think he's real frankly, I think he's a weird hologram.)

  • But the structure of the system I think needs to be held more in account.

  • I mean, why do we have a president?

  • There's a question for the general public.

  • This is a business consti[tution]-… as Thorstein Veblen said,

  • Constitutional democracy is business democracy.”

  • I think it was just dead on when he said that about a century ago.

  • And you literally have this "president"

  • of this big American corporation with all of its subsidies,

  • which have now been funneled out into the transnational industries,

  • that have culminated their own identity with the TPP and NAFTA and the like,

  • and it's really is quite amazing that no one sits back and questions

  • the very structure itself.

  • Scarcity - going back to that one though -

  • I love what Trump represents in the sense of his rhetoric

  • because he literally is doing exactly what all the other guys have done

  • of the elite class, and that is

  • blaming black and brown people and foreigners for the problems of the world.

  • And I think it's just so poetic that he's doing exactly

  • what everyone else has done, since the beginning of this country,

  • to distract people from the fact that they're being

  • screwed on a daily basis by the upper 1%.

  • And they make them fear, you know- the xenophobic fear.

  • And that's exactly what he's doing, it's literally textbook,

  • and frankly I think he believes it; I think guys like that are not

  • sitting there and trying to con the public, they literally believe this stuff.

  • And I think that goes for the majority in fact.

  • We have a conspiratorial tendency,

  • I think Frederick Douglass was the one who made a great quote about that.

  • He saidWhen society makes you feel like there's a conspiracy working against you,

  • no property or person will be safe.”

  • And it's the feeling that everything's working against you,

  • when it's really this sort of procedural dynamic and poor value structure

  • and these interacting web of chain reactions

  • that are inevitably oppressive.

  • I've done a lot of work on structural bigotry and structural racism,

  • structural classism, so in other words to answer your point:

  • It's just fascinating how this old ancient rhetoric

  • is still so prevalent

  • just like it was in the Roman Empire and beyond

  • where they're blaming the external-…

  • And scarcity, back to that, is a big part of it.

  • That's at the root of almost all of our problems on one level or another.

  • - Yeah, you said it's amazing that no one sits back and questions

  • kind of the system as a whole,

  • you know, why do we have this system we have?

  • That's kind of reinforced all day long with advertising.

  • I've heard people sayOh advertising, you know kind of evens out

  • because if Coke's advertising for one thing Pepsi's advertising for the other thing,

  • so it's not like one thing has an advantage.

  • I've heard this multiple times. I've heard about the Democrats and the Republicans:

  • Oh, the ad dollars even out.”

  • You have Democrats advertising, Republicans advertising.

  • But people never seem to take notice of the fact

  • that it's all advertising one thing: it's all advertising the current system.

  • It doesn't matter whether it's for Coke or Pepsi, it's for this current

  • profit-over-all-else, you know, dual-party system.

  • So really it is endless! thousands of ads a day most people take in,

  • that just continues to promote this system

  • and in your last book - I know you have another one coming up -

  • but in your last book you talked about how then it becomes to the point

  • where our own thoughts become indecipherable from propaganda.

  • Are we there?

  • - Yeah, well we've been there a long time; I mean it's called cultural hegemony.

  • That's a term put out by a theorist,

  • I can't remember his name right now but Antonio [Gramsci] ...

  • nevermind. Cultural hegemony is-…

  • - Benderas! I think it was Antonio Benderas.

  • - (Laughs) It's when you hijack the value system of the culture,

  • and we are extremely malleable. Speaking of advertising,

  • as a slight aside which caters to your point,

  • and the fact that of course we are a social- we're social organisms man.

  • We are immutably responding and affected by-…

  • Our limbic and nervous system literally

  • reacts to the world around us and...

  • There's numerous studies for example that have been done when people

  • are put into a room and they're purposefully

  • conned into believing something

  • or making a measurement that is clearly untrue, like it's blatant.

  • LikeIs this a circle or is this a square?”

  • and the people will say "it's a square" but it's actually a circle,

  • and they'll see how much it takes to get that person to conform to that value

  • so they'll fit in with the group. And it's pretty frightening, frightening!

  • how many people will conform to the group

  • just because they want to fit in.

  • That's part of our system, our nervous system has been measured to react that way.

  • But on the issue of, similar studies on the issue of advertising,

  • it's been found - subliminal advertising, that's been made illegal because

  • clearly it has effects: they flash.

  • But they did a recent study and I have this in my new book that I'm working on,

  • they found that actual normal advertising,

  • because of the way it's been groomed socially,

  • the way it's evolved, that it's even worse than subliminal advertising.

  • And what they concluded in this study is that it's really a form of violence

  • because effectively you get like a Coke shown on the screen

  • and you're a diabetic, and you get the Coke shown on the screen,

  • and they make these associations socially.

  • Your brain starts to rewire itself with those associations

  • regardless of your conscious thoughts. - Right.

  • - So effectively it's affecting you on a deeper subconscious level

  • that no one was even really aware of in the past

  • and its truly destructive and, you just have to avoid it.

  • I mean literally just turn it off, do not listen to advertisements.

  • I just, I don't do it.

  • - You know what made me realize just how deep it is was

  • I had quit eating meat. I had quit eating at McDonald's for

  • probably a decade, but I grew up on it. When I was a kid,

  • chicken nuggets were my favorite thing. And I realized that

  • despite not having been in a McDonald's for a decade,

  • when I was driving long distances and I saw the golden arches in the horizon,

  • it still made me feel good. I still got kind of excited.

  • I knew I wasn't gonna go get a Big Mac,

  • but it was likeWhy am I excited about an establishment I have

  • chosen long ago to no longer eat at?”

  • - Yeah! Believe me I understand, your associations get engrained.

  • We are not in control of ourselves, which

  • makes us have a larger order awareness,

  • excuse me, requires us to have a larger order awareness of what's affecting us.

  • I'm what you call a structuralist,

  • that's the term I'll label myself just for ease.

  • A structuralist- Gandhi was deemed a structuralist in the context.

  • He saidDon't blame the person for their actions,

  • look at the motivating structure that puts them in there.”

  • I mean that applies to like the military establishment.

  • The military, for it to be positive on some level,

  • it's great to see people in their idea

  • wanting to defend their country and their people, that's fine.

  • But on another level what you have is a groomed

  • set of serial killers.

  • Because they're serially oriented around the destruction that they're seeking,

  • and they've convinced themselves that all of this is of high-value

  • so they're being influenced by the structure of the military

  • to do what they're doing, as opposed to their own individual free will,

  • and that's really important. Gandhi was big on that, I'm big on that,

  • I take it to many different levels.

  • My big thing ultimately is that until we change the economic system

  • you're not going to change human culture.

  • The absolute foundation of our entire value structure, our culture,

  • is rooted both in present and historically

  • in the unfolding of our economy and how its evolved,

  • whether it's slavery, whether it's exploitation,

  • all of this stuff is built into us now

  • and we just- that's pretty much what I started to to say about that,

  • that's why I'm big on economic change.

  • - Before we run out of time, we have a about a minute 30 left,

  • I wanted to hear about ZDay you have coming up in Greece,

  • and you also have a new movie you're working on,

  • you got a new book you're working on.

  • I wanna hear about all those things, because people

  • are itching for new projects from you. You've got them addicted

  • and you've created some sort of scarcity market around it,

  • around your projects, and its really really hypocritical of you!

  • - You're figuring me out! I can't work fast enough.

  • Yeah, everything's been long overdue for a long time.

  • I have too many things going on man, too many projects.

  • Yeah the Zeitgeist Movement, that's a big time consumer

  • and also very important, we're on our 8th annual Zeitgeist Day.

  • You participated in our Berlin main event last year, we appreciated that.

  • - Yeah - And we're in Athens Greece, which is a timely place to be.

  • Athens had got so hit with its debt collapse and austerity and

  • youth unemployment. It's still in shambles to this day

  • so we're hoping to draw a nice European crowd to talk about this.

  • So that's the 8th annual Zeitgeist Day. There's also local ones.

  • I'm in Los Angeles at the moment and

  • there's a Los Angeles event March 26 as well,

  • and by the way March 26 is also the Athens Greece day.

  • And there are ones all around the country and around the world.

  • If anyone wants to see if there's one in their area

  • they can go online to the social networks or thezeitgeistmovement.com

  • and check it out.

  • As far as my film InterReflections,

  • this has been very much overdue and I'm in production with it now

  • in tandem with a book that I was also working on

  • which I won't go into too much detail with because it's still

  • in its kind of final stages.

  • But effectively it deals with the future of civil rights.

  • Frankly I think of all this conversation, at the very root of it

  • is our mutual codependence and our interplay as a species;

  • that's what we are right? I mean-

  • Our lives are defined by each other, and our entire presence is social.

  • And the Civil Rights Movement as historically seen in America,

  • which was so profound on multiple levels because of the history of America

  • and slavery, a very different orientation than many other countries,

  • served as a unique model for me and what I've done in this book

  • is basically taken the framework of the American Civil Rights Movement

  • and extended it out to include all the things

  • that I've talked about throughout the years

  • with respect to economic change as the ultimate route.

  • I'll say in conclusion of that is that

  • racism and bigotry, its grandfather - the ultimate overarching umbrella -

  • is classism. It always has been. It's always been about that.

  • - Well thank you so much Peter, I feel like we could talk

  • for 3 hours and not run out of topics but

  • I really do, I really do appreciate it and

  • keep doing what you're doing.

  • - I appreciate Camp, we all appreciate what you're doing as well so,

  • be good. - Thanks man.

  • That's our show. Tune in tomorrow for a new episode

  • of Redacted Tonight which tapes with a live audience

  • here in Washington DC. Email RedactedTonight@RTAmerica.TV

  • for ticket details. Good night, and keep fighting.

  • Redacted Tonight VIP with Lee Camp

Redacted Tonight VIP with Lee Camp

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ピーター・ジョセフ、Redacted Tonight VIPに出演 - What Would It Take? (Peter Joseph on Redacted Tonight VIP - What Would It Take)

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    王惟惟 に公開 2021 年 01 月 14 日
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