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  • Chris Anderson: Christiane, great to have you here.

    翻訳: Hiroshi Uchiyama 校正: Eriko T

  • So you've had this amazing viewpoint,

    (クリス・アンダーソン) クリスティアンお迎えできて光栄です

  • and perhaps it's fair to say that in the last few years,


  • there have been some alarming developments that you're seeing.


  • What's alarmed you most?


  • Christiane Amanpour: Well, just listening to the earlier speakers,


  • I can frame it in what they've been saying:

    (クリスティアン・アマンプール) これまでのスピーカーの話を聞きましたが

  • climate change, for instance -- cities, the threat to our environment


  • and our lives.

    例えば気候変動ですね 都市や 私たちの環境や生命への脅威について

  • It basically also boils down to understanding the truth


  • and to be able to get to the truth of what we're talking about

    これは最終的には 私たちの議論している事柄について

  • in order to really be able to solve it.

    問題を本当に解決するために 真実を理解したり

  • So if 99.9 percent of the science on climate


  • is empirical, scientific evidence,


  • but it's competing almost equally with a handful of deniers,


  • that is not the truth;

    それが真実ではないとする ひと握りの否定論者達と

  • that is the epitome of fake news.

    五分の戦いという状況 ―

  • And so for me, the last few years -- certainly this last year --


  • has crystallized the notion of fake news in a way that's truly alarming

    ですから私にとって ここ数年の 特に昨年は

  • and not just some slogan to be thrown around.

    フェイクニュースの概念が 単にまき散らされるだけのスローガンから

  • Because when you can't distinguish between the truth and fake news,


  • you have a very much more difficult time trying to solve

    真実とフェイクニュースを 見分けられなければ

  • some of the great issues that we face.

    私たちが直面する 切実な問題を解決するのが

  • CA: Well, you've been involved in this question of,


  • what is balance, what is truth, what is impartiality,

    (アンダーソン)そうですね  あなたは長い間

  • for a long time.

    バランスとは 真実とは 公平とは何かという

  • You were on the front lines reporting the Balkan Wars 25 years ago.


  • And back then, you famously said,

    25年前 最前線から バルカン戦争を報道しました

  • by calling out human right abuses,

    その当時 あなたが

  • you said, "Look, there are some situations one simply cannot be neutral about,

    人権侵害の告発でこう言ったのは よく知られています

  • because when you're neutral,

    「中立性を保つのが無理な 状況があり得る

  • you are an accomplice."


  • So, do you feel that today's journalists aren't heeding that advice


  • about balance?

    その点で現在のジャーナリズムは バランスについての忠告を

  • CA: Well, look, I think for journalists, objectivity is the golden rule.


  • But I think sometimes we don't understand what objectivity means.

    (アマンプール)ジャーナリストにとっては 客観性こそが黄金律です

  • And I actually learned this very, very young in my career,

    でも客観性の意味を 理解できていない時があります

  • which was during the Balkan Wars.

    この事を学んだのは この業界に入ったばかりの頃で

  • I was young then.


  • It was about 25 years ago.


  • And what we faced was the wholesale violation, not just of human rights,


  • but all the way to ethnic cleansing and genocide,

    そこで目にしたのは 人権に留まらない

  • and that has been adjudicated in the highest war crimes court

    民族浄化や大量虐殺などの 不当行為の横行で

  • in the world.


  • So, we know what we were seeing.


  • Trying to tell the world what we were seeing


  • brought us accusations of bias,

    それを世界に伝えようとすると 非難されました

  • of siding with one side,


  • of not seeing the whole side,


  • and just, you know, trying to tell one story.


  • I particularly and personally was accused of siding with,

    1つの物語だけを語ろうとしているなどの 非難です

  • for instance, the citizens of Sarajevo --

    私 個人は とりわけ

  • "siding with the Muslims,"

    サラエボ市民から 「イスラム教徒の側に立った」

  • because they were the minority who were being attacked


  • by Christians on the Serb side

    その地域では 少数派のイスラム教徒が

  • in this area.


  • And it worried me.


  • It worried me that I was being accused of this.


  • I thought maybe I was wrong,


  • maybe I'd forgotten what objectivity was.

    私が間違っていたか あるいは

  • But then I started to understand that what people wanted

    客観性の意義を 忘れていたのかも知れないと悩みました

  • was actually not to do anything --

    しかしやがて人々が 何を求めていたかが分かり始めました

  • not to step in,

    何もしないで 踏み込んで来ないで

  • not to change the situation,

    状況を変えないで 解決策を見つけないで と求めていたのです

  • not to find a solution.

    その当時のフェイクニュース ―

  • And so, their fake news at that time,


  • their lie at that time --

    私たちの政府 ― 民主的に選ばれ 人権の価値と道義を掲げる

  • including our government's, our democratically elected government's,

    私たちの政府も含めて 述べていた嘘は

  • with values and principles of human rights --

    これは何世紀にも渡る 民族間の憎悪感情に由来し

  • their lie was to say that all sides are equally guilty,

    すべての側がともに等しく 罪を負っていたとした事でした

  • that this has been centuries of ethnic hatred,

    私たちはそれが真実ではないと わかっていました

  • whereas we knew that wasn't true,

    ある一方が殺害し殺戮し民族浄化を 始めたのだと分かっていたんです

  • that one side had decided to kill, slaughter and ethnically cleanse


  • another side.


  • So that is where, for me,


  • I understood that objectivity means giving all sides an equal hearing

    しかしそれは すべての側を 等しく扱う事ではなく

  • and talking to all sides,

    強制された道徳的平等や既成事実の平等を 作る事でもないと気付きました

  • but not treating all sides equally,


  • not creating a forced moral equivalence or a factual equivalence.


  • And when you come up against that crisis point

    目にしている事の意味を 理解できないと

  • in situations of grave violations of international and humanitarian law,


  • if you don't understand what you're seeing,

    フェイクニュースのパラダイムに 捕らわれてしまうと

  • if you don't understand the truth


  • and if you get trapped in the fake news paradigm,

    そして私は集団虐殺の共犯者になる事を 拒否します

  • then you are an accomplice.


  • And I refuse to be an accomplice to genocide.

    (アンダーソン)プロパガンダの抗争は いつでもありましたし

  • (Applause)

    あなたは勇気を持って ご自分の主張を堅持していました

  • CH: So there have always been these propaganda battles,


  • and you were courageous in taking the stand you took back then.


  • Today, there's a whole new way, though,


  • in which news seems to be becoming fake.

    (アマンプール)ええ 大変憂慮しています

  • How would you characterize that?


  • CA: Well, look -- I am really alarmed.


  • And everywhere I look,

    まず 自由世界のリーダーであり

  • you know, we're buffeted by it.

    世界中で最も影響力のある人物 —

  • Obviously, when the leader of the free world,

    つまりアメリカ合衆国 大統領のことがあります

  • when the most powerful person in the entire world,

    この国は 経済的にも軍事的にも政治的にも

  • which is the president of the United States --


  • this is the most important, most powerful country in the whole world,

    自国の価値感と覇権を 世界に広めようとしています

  • economically, militarily, politically in every which way --

    だから真実を追求する 私たちジャーナリストは—

  • and it seeks to, obviously, promote its values and power around the world.


  • So we journalists, who only seek the truth --


  • I mean, that is our mission --


  • we go around the world looking for the truth

    人々がなかなか行く事ができない 世界の地域を訪れ

  • in order to be everybody's eyes and ears,


  • people who can't go out in various parts of the world


  • to figure out what's going on about things that are vitally important

    世界の有力な指導者に フェイクニュースだと非難されたら

  • to everybody's health and security.


  • So when you have a major world leader accusing you of fake news,

    そしてそこから始まるのは それが私たちの信頼性を

  • it has an exponential ripple effect.


  • And what it does is, it starts to chip away


  • at not just our credibility,

    私たちを見ている人々は 恐らくこんな風に考えます

  • but at people's minds --

    「アメリカ大統領の発言であるからには 真実が含まれているかも知れない」

  • people who look at us, and maybe they're thinking,

    (アンダーソン)大統領たちは 昔から常にメディアには批判的でした

  • "Well, if the president of the United States says that,


  • maybe somewhere there's a truth in there."


  • CH: Presidents have always been critical of the media --


  • CA: Not in this way.


  • CH: So, to what extent --

    (アンダーソン)数年前に誰かが ツイッターやフェイスブックなどに投稿される

  • (Laughter)


  • (Applause)


  • CH: I mean, someone a couple years ago looking at the avalanche of information

    「民主主義はこれまでになく 健全な状態になった

  • pouring through Twitter and Facebook and so forth,


  • might have said,

    もちろん大統領達は 好き勝手な事を言うだろうが

  • "Look, our democracies are healthier than they've ever been.


  • There's more news than ever.

    これの一体何がいけないと言うんです? 更なる危険が潜むというのは何故?」

  • Of course presidents will say what they'll say,


  • but everyone else can say what they will say.

    私たちが情報を得る プラットフォームの普及が

  • What's not to like? How is there an extra danger?"

    真実や透明性や深さや正確さの 普及につながれば良かったと思います

  • CA: So, I wish that was true.


  • I wish that the proliferation of platforms upon which we get our information


  • meant that there was a proliferation of truth and transparency


  • and depth and accuracy.

    情報スーパーハイウェイの議論を始めた頃 —

  • But I think the opposite has happened.


  • You know, I'm a little bit of a Luddite,

    ツイッターやその類のソーシャルメディアが まだなかった頃に

  • I will confess.


  • Even when we started to talk about the information superhighway,

    情報スーパーハイウェイが人々を 決まった道に誘導してしまい

  • which was a long time ago,


  • before social media, Twitter and all the rest of it,


  • I was actually really afraid

    私が恐れているのは アルゴリズム、ロガリズムなど

  • that that would put people into certain lanes and tunnels


  • and have them just focusing on areas of their own interest

    私たちを 偏った特定の情報チャンネルに 誘導してしまいます

  • instead of seeing the broad picture.


  • And I'm afraid to say that with algorithms, with logarithms,


  • with whatever the "-ithms" are

    人々はこう言いました 「インターネットがやって来た

  • that direct us into all these particular channels of information,

    民主主義や 多くの情報へのアクセスが増え

  • that seems to be happening right now.

    偏見を減らし より多様な情報へのアクセスを

  • I mean, people have written about this phenomenon.


  • People have said that yes, the internet came,


  • its promise was to exponentially explode our access to more democracy,

    なので私にはとても 信じがたいほど危険に思えるのです

  • more information,

    繰り返しになりますが この国の大統領が発言すると

  • less bias,

    非民主主義国家の指導者たちに 私たちをさらに貶める―

  • more varied information.


  • And, in fact, the opposite has happened.

    私たち そしてその国のジャーナリストたちを フェイクニュースという棍棒で打ちのめすのです

  • And so that, for me, is incredibly dangerous.

    (アンダーソン)どの程度というか 何が起きたか ですが

  • And again, when you are the president of this country and you say things,

    ある意味 意図しない結果として

  • it also gives leaders in other undemocratic countries the cover


  • to affront us even worse,


  • and to really whack us -- and their own journalists --


  • with this bludgeon of fake news.

    信頼性を欠くような記事は 排除されていましたが

  • CH: To what extent is what happened, though,


  • in part, just an unintended consequence,


  • that the traditional media that you worked in


  • had this curation-mediation role,


  • where certain norms were observed,

    こういった行動が 問題になっていると思いますか?

  • certain stories would be rejected because they weren't credible,

    (アマンプール)その通り 大きな問題と思います 2016年の大統領選挙で目撃しましたが

  • but now that the standard for publication and for amplification

    「クリックベイト」と言う手法は 目を引いて誘惑的でした

  • is just interest, attention, excitement, click,


  • "Did it get clicked on?"

    無作為や偶然ではなく 意図的に公開されたものです

  • "Send it out there!"

    フェイクニュースを生みだす 一連の産業が