Interviewer: How do we go about changing someone's nature?
Jacque: First of all, as a kid, when I was about 15 or 16,
I asked all those questions you're asking now.
I said to myself, "How can you make a world of uniformity,
bring all the nations together? Their social customs, their concept of God is different.
They may have 10 wives. You believe in one. How do you bring them together?"
And I said the most difficult three words in my life,
"I don't know."
I really didn't know. I said, "How can I do that?"
I said, "Don't try to design a global civilization
until you understand what you're talking about."
I got confused. I got into my own... Thinking is talking to yourself.
If I say, "I'll see you Saturday." "I'll take the kids... It means I can't see you."
It's talking to yourself, it's nothing magical.
I talked to myself and I said,
"How do you know your system will work? It sounds good on paper.
You sound like (it's my own language) a Utopian."
I got a book from the library years ago
and it was called "125 Utopias and Why They Failed."
To me, that was very important to read,
and I read that book and I came up with something slightly different.
I felt that... I had in my day a thing called a Victrola.
You wind it up and the record would play.
And I was thinking within those terms and my age... I'm 94,
I've seen so many changes that I couldn't accept the notion of Utopia.
If I designed a very good city that's the best I know up to now,
but I know that that new city would be a straight jacket to the kids of the future.
They'll design their own cities.
If you made a statue of me in front of that city, you hold back the future.
If you have a laptop, which I'm sure you may have...
A laptop is not the best that can be.
It's the best we know of up to now.
Ten years from now the laptop will be smaller, lighter, faster, everything.
You can't freeze anything, or you can't use the word Utopia because it assumes
you've delved on the ideal civilization. And to me that's ridiculous.
Anything I design can be surpassed.
Even in the history of my own work,
I keep changing things. I have no fixed notions.
Interviewer: All the visions of The Venus Project I've seen, they look beautiful.
They are stunningly well designed worlds.
But it seems like a lot of the people I've spoken to,
not yourself yet, I'm speaking to you now,
they see a world without greed, without fear, without murder,
without governments, without police forces, without investment bankers.
Jacque: How do attain that when there is such a thing as jealousy? Even a thing like that.
Interviewer: Or terrorism. Someone might want to blow up.
Jacque: Sure. I met many different people in my travels,
and I'll try to explain what jealousy is.
See, they don't define their terms. If you ask a particular person,
"What are your conclusions now, in life, that you're 70 years old?"
He says, "Well, I'm a nature lover. I believe in letting nature alone.
I think nature's a wonderful thing."
I say, "You mean you like hurricanes and earthquakes which kill thousands of people? That's nature too."
Being ruthlessly honest, there are some aspects of nature that preserve life and some that are dangerous.
A rattlesnake is natural. A cobra is natural.
And an earthquake is natural. Meteors falling on the earth is natural.
I'm not a nature accepter. There are some aspects of nature I like,
other aspects are detrimental to human beings.
When I meet a person who says, "I'm a nature lover,"
I say, "What do you mean by that?"
Another person says, "I'm spiritual."
I'm not sure what that means, so I say, "What do you mean by that?
Do you mean you have no locks on your door?
If you see a hungry person, you bring them into your house and feed them?"
I know that what they're talking about, they have no real clarification of the use of words.
And then I begin to get confused because I want to know
what the other person means when he says, "I believe in social design. I'm a socialist."
Or I meet another guy says, "I'm a communist."
I say, "How do you prevent corruption under communism?"
"I don't know."
I say, "How will you house the millions of people who need housing?"
"I don't know."
Then just say, "Tell me more about what you believe in." They have no information.
Then I met a friend of mine or an acquaintance, not really that close,
and he told me he was running for political office.
I said, "I'm so sorry to hear that."
He didn't get the message.
Of course he didn't get it. He said, "What do you mean by that?"
I said, "As politicians..." I've met many of them in Washington.
I said, "How would you stop cars from hitting each other?"
"I don't know."
"How would you increase the agricultural yield without exhausting the soil?"
"I don't know." "Well, what do you know about the physical world?"
"Well, I guess I'm not technical."
I said, "You understand that everything we have today:
your cameras, your car, your airplanes, your communications
are all technical. And a politician is not a technician.
I don't know what they can do. I really don't know what they understand."
I said, "When you fly in a commercial airliner today
you don't have to call the pilot and say, 'You've been flying at an angle. Straighten up.' "
He knows his business. The navigator knows how to get to where you're going.
And it's all done by some branch of technology.
Is technology the answer? No.
It was more answers than non-technology.
"Be good. Be kind." What do you mean by that?
To me it means that everyone should have access to a relevant education.
All people all over the world need clean air,
clean water, arable land, and a relevant education.
Relevant means no advertising, no lawyers, no business men, no investment bankers,
people that have the ability to make food grow, take care of physical injury.
Those are the real people. I don't know of any other kind of people.
But there are people called philosophers,
which sit back and meditate on their navel,
or go into a room and free their mind of all kinds of thought
and come up with wonderful answers: "What is needed in a world is peace and harmony."
"How do you attain that?" "I don't know."
I say, "You don't have a method of solving a problem."
They say, "I don't know what you're talking about, Jacque."
I said, "Well, if I had anything to do with it (with the running of a nation)
I would take down signs "Drive Carefully, Slippery When Wet".
I'd put abrasive in the highway so it's not slippery when wet.
There are other signs "School District. 14 mph."
The power output would be 14 mph.
So you can step on the gas all you want to.
And it says, "Danger. School children crossing."
I'd design a gadget that looks like this
and when a kid presses the button to cross the street, he can't go across
until the red light goes on and the pavement turns up like that,
like a cone. So no car can hit a kid.
That's how I say I care. I don't know what it means
"I believe in peace and harmony and goodwill."
I understand the language, but I know it has no backup.
The Venus Project differs from other projects in that when I said to myself,
"How are we going to change people?"
I said, "I don't know." So I joined the Ku Klux Klan.
Did you know about that? (Interviewer: No, I didn't.) In Miami.
And I dissolved it in a month and a half.
There were 32 members including the head guy.
After that I joined the White Citizen's Council. They hate foreigners.
I joined by identification. I identified with them.
But I always worked on their leader and I dissolved it in one month alone.
Then, when I came back to New York from California, I asked a lot of people,
"Well, who are the most backward people in the area?"
They said the Arabs. They said they still believed the earth is flat.
I said to myself, "I'm going to see if I can dissolve that group."
But before I did I found out who the leader was.
His name was Elbaz. I called him on the phone.
I said, "Elbaz, can I come and talk to you?" I know his dialect.
He said, "You are Arab?" That's the way he spoke.
I said, "Eah". It means "yes" in Arabic.
I speak many little bits of language, German, French, a little bit.
So, what I did is I asked Elbaz if I could see him.
He said, "From where your father he born?" I said, "Lebanon."
He said, "Come and saw me." Means, come and see me.
So he said to me... when I got to see him, alone,
"You believe the world he round?" I said "Yes." He went "Tsk-tsk."
In his country that means, that's ridiculous.
Then he held his hand up like this and he pointed to his head. I'm telling you exactly what he did.
He said, "If the world he round, man fall me down here.
All the water, he fall me down from the world."
He said to me, "You saw what I'm telling you?"
I said, "Eah."
So I gave him my balloon (I brought the balloon there)
and I rubbed it with fur real fast
and I put some corn flakes in his hand and told him to hold his hand
10 inches away from the balloon.
Do you know what happens with corn flakes if you rub it with fur? (Interviewer: I don't.)
Electrostatically, they move up and adhere to the balloon.
It's called static electricity.
His jaw hit the pavement after the corn flakes went all over the balloon. (Interviewer: And didn't fall off.)
He said, "World, he magnet?" I said, "Eah".
"Aah!" And he explained that to all the others. Interviewer: So, you showed him some evidence.
Jacque: It took an hour and a half and I turned them around.
You don't turn people around with logic. It doesn't work at all.
Interviewer: Evidence is what they like.
Jacque: Well, for him, what he considers evidence. Not what I consider evidence.
Then I thought, in the Bible it said, "Honor thy father and mother."
My mother was a racist and a bigot.
She hated foreigners, Japanese, Blacks... And I brought a Japanese kid home one day.
She said, "I don't want that kind around."
So I used reason, as a dummy.
I was a kid and I thought reason is the bridge. It didn't work at all.
So I said, "If you can't get to your mother you can't change the world."
Do you want to know how I changed the clan and my mother? (Interviewer: Sure.)
I befriended a guy named Lou Merlin, who was head of the clan in Miami of that group.
And he had a war surplus store. Do you know what that is?
Interviewer: Yeah, Army Navy store.
Jacque: I used to buy lenses.
And he said, "What do you do with this stuff you buy?"
I said, "Lou, you're welcome to come to my lab and see what I do with it."
And I did different optical devices.
And he said, "You're a smart guy. What do you think of the Klan?"
I said, "It's a great organization but it doesn't go far enough."
See, if you attack, it doesn't work.
He said, "What do you mean it doesn't go far enough?"
I said, "Lou..." After he visited my lab he respected me. And here's what he said,
"Will you come on down to the Klan and talk to our boys about what you're doing."
I said, "Lou, they wouldn't listen to me. You know."
He said, "I'll get them to listen to you. You're a smart guy."
I said, "Lou, if you can do that, that'd be fine."
So he said, "I want you to listen to this here Jacque. He knows what he's talking about."
Because he was impressed by things I showed him.
I can tell you what I showed him too, later on if you want to know.
Anyway, he said to me... After I talked to his guys a little while...
I tried to talk to them about animal training because they were interested in dogs. They hunt a lot.
So I showed them some films I did on a bunch of animals that I had trained
that sit at a table and I bring food there (It's real) and they eat it.
And I said, "Before I worked on animals, I worked on insects."
I paint formic acid on a tin can, put an ant on and the ant would follow the formic acid.
He never said, "Wait a while, I've been here before."
He never walked off unless I painted the formic acid off the can.
And then I know that most insects respond to sounds, chemicals, light.
Then I worked on animals. My greatest difficulty was snakes.
In conditioning snakes I didn't even know how to start. This was when I was a kid.
What I did is I put a black and brown mice in with the snakes,
and the snake would center his head and grab the mouse.
You'd see the hind legs kicking. Now it's funny how he swallowed it.
The teeth have back grate and they move up and back,
shoving it down the throat. He didn't swallow.
Then I wanted him not to bother the white mouse.
So I put a white mouse in there and I put a glass partition between the white mouse and the snake.
And he'd center his head on the white mouse and hit the glass.
And after 10 or 15 times,
when the white mouse was anywhere within the area of the snake it wouldn't make an attempt.
So I pulled the glass out then and the white mouse could go anywhere in that cage,
but the snake would only eat the dark mouse.
And the next thing I did is photograph the white mouse
sitting on the snake's head. You know, going like this.
And the snake was moving around, never bothered the white mouse. Interviewer: You conditioned the snake.
Jacque: Yeah. Then I said, "What about nature, like jealousy?
Is that inborn? Is that an instinct? Or is it learned?"
So I talked to a psychologist about it.
He said, "No, it's a natural thing, jealousy.
It's all over the world, in every animal."
I said, "Give me an example."
He said, "Well, if I reach for my cat, the dog growls.
But particularly if I put it on my lap and stroke it."
I said, "Is that what you mean by jealousy?"
He says, "That's what I mean by jealousy." That's an operational definition.
So I said, "If it's instinctive I'm going to try to find out."
I would feed the dog a little bit of fresh liver and then reach for the cat.
And keep feeding the dog fresh liver and then after 10 or 15 times,
when I reached for the cat, the dog's tail would wag.
If it's inborn that wouldn't happen. The dog would still growl.
I had to reject that.
I began to talk to scientists. Mostly psychologists in the old days.
And I said, "Why do you adjust people to this system? It's unsane."
That's what they do. They have to be stupid to do that
because psychologists are brought up with the routine of behavior,
and they are given the statistics that are not always accurate.
And so, I began to do a lot of work myself.
My grandfather changed me in certain ways.
He said, "Jacque, people came from all over the world to America
and they brought the printing press, the Arabs brought algebra
—that's the name in Arab, algebra—and the Arabs gave us mathematics and the zero.
And different nations gave us a printing press
and the language. We speak botched English in America.
My grandfather said, "If you love the earth, pledge allegiance to the Earth and everyone on it.
If you pledge allegiance to any one nation, you're negating all the other people."
And that made sense to me.
My grandfather in other areas was not sane. He was unsane.
He believed that there are people who lived under the ground that looked like us
that were replicas with chicken feet, webbed foot.
There were certain areas of my grandfather's behaviors that made sense.
In school I refused to pledge allegiance to the flag.
Apparently the teacher I had at that time didn't like that.
She grabbed me by the ear, dragged me all the way down the hall to the principal's office.
I was only about 14 then.
And she said to the principal, "He doesn't want to pledge allegiance to the flag."
So, the principal looked at the teacher and said, "You're excused. You can go back now."
Then he put his arms around me. He said, "Why don't you want to pledge allegiance. Everybody does."
I said, "Everybody once believed the Earth was flat. It doesn't make it flat."
So he said, "What do you think of American history?"
I'm giving you the guts of what changed me.
I said, "Well, everybody in history books says the right thing and does the right thing.
It doesn't sound like real people. They make mistakes. They have errors in judgment.
They don't have any of that in history books. Everybody looks right."
So he said, "Well, what do you think of the teaching we do in school?"
I said, "When a teacher says to a child, 'That's wrong',
there's no information in that language for a child to work with.
Or "That's not what I told you". There's no information in that.
He said, "What is information?"
I said, "If a child spells cat with K, say you're very close.
Draw the two letters that are close and change the K to a C.
But don't say that's wrong because it has no...."
He says, "I'm going to have to call your mother in."
I said, "Do what you have to do."
So my mother comes in crying, the usual.
"What did he do?" She's going like that.
And he says, "He didn't do anything but we really have no place for him in our schools."
She said, "Oh my God. What's going to happen to him?"
He says, "I don't think you have to worry about that
because I'm going to take him to the bookstore and buy him whatever books he wants to read,
and let him read what he wants to read in school. I'll rope off the area.
And I want him to come to me once a week and tell me what he's reading and why he's reading that."
I'll have to tell you a little bit about the other bits before I continue. Can I?
Interviewer: Yeah. Of course. Yeah. We've got plenty of time.
Jacque: Well, I wanted to know how airplanes fly, as a kid, on this thin substance.
I could not understand it.
So I asked my mother and father and my relatives. They had no information.
I finally went to the library and got out a book called The Wright Brothers.
And I was very anxious because for years I wanted to know.
I opened that book with great anxiety and it starts out,
"It was a sunny day in May and Mrs. Orville Wright was hanging clothing on the line."
I didn't want to know that. That bothered me.
And I had to go through the whole book with "sunny day in May".
And near the end of the book they killed the pigeon.
And they put wiring in its wings to keep him out there.
And they moved the wings up and back to find the center of gravity and launched it.
That was information. And when I went back to school and looked at the books,
most of it was "sunny day in May". I lot of bullshit and little information.
So I began to read and scratch the bullshit, the "sunny day in May," and look for substance.
So I was able to read more substance than "sunny day in May."
Then he died in about a year and a half after he set that up,
and they took away that privilege.
So I played hooky. I didn't go to school for six weeks.
One day I came home and the truant officer was sitting on my doorstep.
He said, "Are you Jacque Fresco?" I said, "Yes."
"You haven't been to school for a month."
I said, "Six weeks." He said, "That's right."
He said, "What do you do when you're not in school?"
I said, "I go to the library and I read what I want to read.
I go to the Museum of Science and Industry and look at what I want to look at."
He said, "Do you hang out in gangs?
Do you use drugs?" I said, "No. I'm not interested in that."
He asked me, "What do you do at home?"
I said, "I have a little lab. It's not very elaborate."
He said, "Can I see it?"
I said, "Under a condition that you don't tell my mother who you are
because she would become hysterical." He said, "I agree."
I shook hands with him and I showed him my lab. Then he said,
"I can't say you're wrong. You're not doing anything bad."
He said, "You can do me a favor if you want to."
I said, "What kind of favor."
He said, "Show up Monday just to show that I did my job.
Then you can play hooky all you want to."
I liked the guy. He was a nice guy and I did that and I never went back to school.
I began to hitchhike toward California.
Why? Because airplanes dropped pamphlets.
They said, "Come to California. There's lots of jobs."
And I couldn't get a job. My father couldn't get a job. This is during the Depression.
The banks failed. They paid off a new home.
They didn't pay it off. They made down payments, several payments.
When the banks failed, they couldn't continue the payments.
15 million people in my area were sleeping in every empty lot.
That was the beginning of social conscience.
I looked at store windows: there were phonographs (you know, the thing you wind up).
There were all kinds of things available but they didn't have money.
They were good people. They made shacks.
And at the same time I read there was going to be a bonus march on Washington
by the veterans of World War I. That's years after the war.
The government promised soldiers 600 bucks
but they didn't have the money at the time to give these millions of guys 600 bucks.
So they marched on Washington with their uniforms, their medals, crutches, wheelchairs,
and they were sleeping in every empty lot around the capital.
Well, I was a kid in Washington watching that
and General Douglas MacArthur (I don't know if you ever heard of him), he was a captain then.
The Senate said, "Get those guys out of here. It doesn't look good."
So he ordered them to leave and they said, "Not until we get our bonus."
So he threw... had his troops throw tear gas at them.
And that bothered me, no end.
Interviewer: Were they tear gassing soldiers? Jacque: Yes. Tear gassing veterans.
They wanted their bonus that the government promised them.
And then I said to myself, "This shit's got to go."
It would look very bad to me.
Because there was stuff around. Farmers grew food
but people didn't have the money to buy it, so their crops were rotting away.
And I noticed... At that time it was the Depression...
You'll have to take my word for it because you weren't around then.
There were people up on soapboxes with an American flag and a Nazi flag,
talking about the Nazi point of view.
There were socialists, communists, Mankind United, all kinds of people talking of new ideas.
It was the Depression that stimulated that.
When they lost confidence in their elected leaders.
Interviewer: Kind of like we have now. Jacque: Yes. Exactly.
I was standing in front of a communist speaking,
and he said, "Beat it, Sonny."
Because I was just 16 or so and they were all adults.
No kids were interested in that.
I was standing there and he said, "I told you to beat it."
I said, "I want to hear what you've got to say." He said, "Why?"
"Because I don't believe what the Democrats say about the Republicans and what Republicans say about Democrats.
I want to hear from a communist what communism is." He said, "You can stay."
An hour later he said to me... I said to him rather,
"I want to ask you a thousand questions."
He said, "You have to go to the YCL." I said, "What's that?"
He said, "Young Communist League."
I said, "Where are they?" He gave me an address and I went there.
And there were kids, boys and girls, 10 years to 17,
and they were reading books like Dostoevsky's "Crime and Punishment".
The kids were not typical. They were different than normal. They were much brighter.
I waited until the meeting was over and I raised my hand and said,
"How are you going to prevent corruption when communism comes in?
And how are you going to house the masses?"
He said, "Well, when that time comes we'll work on it."
I said, "Look. It sounds very humane.
Let's start a technical branch of the communist party and work on mass housing."
They said, "You're a deviationist." I said, "What's that?"
"You're deviating from the teachings of Marx."
I said, "I'm trying to help. I'd help anybody."
So he said, "You'll have to leave. You're deviating from Marx."
But the Vice President of the Young Communist League said, "Let's hear him out."
And they kicked us both out. This guy was dumb, I think,
because I was only going to help anybody.
Anyway, after they kicked us out,
that was the time I hitchhiked to California.
And this woman driving a car...
Descriptively she must have weighed over 300 pounds,
brand new car, big hat with cherries and feathers.
That was normal when I was a kid.
She opened the door part of the way. She said, "Are you a Christian?"
I said, "What else?" She said, "Get in."
She let me in the car and I fell asleep because I hadn't slept for days walking on the road,
and she poked me in the ribs. She really did hurt me.
"You're not sleeping in my car."
I said, "What do you want me to do?" "I want you to sing all the way to Texas."
I said, "What do you want me to sing?"
"Jesus loves me—this I know, For the Bible tells me so..."
I had to sing all the way to Texas, but I realized that
as a religious person, she didn't understand what she was reading.
She didn't understand the Bible.
When I got to California
I went to where the airplanes said there're jobs.
There were hundreds of people there,
and the guy said, "Will you work for eight cents an hour? Will you work for seven cents an hour?"
and picked the low bidder and that was very cruel to me.
I hitchhiked to one of the aircraft factories
and I was about nearly 18, and I said, "I'd like a job." They said,
"Are you a draftsman? An engineer? Do you understand aerodynamics?"
I said, "No."
"We can't hire you. You're not even a high school graduate."
I said, "That's true."
So I showed him my drawings. And he said, "You're hired."
I said, "What do you want me to do?" "Just think up ideas."
I said, "What are your problems?"
He said, "Well, when a big plane lands..." I'm giving you detail.
The big tires sometimes cost ten thousand dollars a piece
on a Ford-Trimotor or a Condor, and the tires wear out fast.
So I put vanes on the side of the wheel. When the landing gear...
When you're in the air the wheel would turn. But the landing gear was retractable.
When they take them out, the wheels would turn by the vanes on the side.
Everything I thought of belonged to that company.
I worked there for some time. And the guy said, "The first three weeks you were here, Jacque,
you made more contributions to the aircraft industry than the history of aviation."
That's the chief draftsman. And he said to me,
"How do you think up all these things?"
I said, "That's a long story."
So he invited me to his home to dinner and I explained it.
He said, "I want you to meet the chief aerodynamicist."
That's a guy that studies airflow over wings and around surfaces.
He told him that I did not believe in the Bernoulli principle.
Do you know what that is? (Interviewer: No.)
Air flowing over the top of the wing covers a greater distance
and creates a partial vacuum. Two-thirds of the lift comes
from the top of the wing, not the bottom.
So I built a model wing to test that out.
In order to deflect air up this way, you had to take a download in the wing.
You understand? If air hits and gets deflected that way. If you hold...
Interviewer: Yeah. You would think it would push the wing down.
Jacque: That's a resultant. So you get nothing for nothing.
I was telling Ford, the guy who hired me, that I didn't accept the Bernoulli principle.
He told that to the chief aerodynamicist
and he came over and said, "You don't accept the Bernoulli principle?"
I said, "No. I only don't accept certain aspects of it."
He said, "I don't even want to talk to you," and he walked away.
Very famous guy, Dr. Kline.
And that was the first time I encountered a scientist that was unscientific.
He should have said, "What is it you have against it?"
If he were a scientist he would have tried to help me if I were wrong.
And so, I began to think, gee, if a scientist behaves like that
then I mustn't honor scientists. I have to check them out. Each one of them.
I said, that's a tough job. So I got into a field called General Semantics.
The book is called "Science and Sanity" by Alfred Korzybski.
He began to tell me that words people use are not information.
They're just names they get in school.
And that book really made me aware of language, communication.
I began to study semantics.
Followed by another book called "Tyranny of Words" by Stuart Chase.
That would help you if you're really interested in the history of language.
I got "Mind in the Making" by James Harvey Robinson—how we get to be the way we are.
And all of those books were based on experiment, not on sheer philosophy.
So I became highly experimental.
Following that I was working on a certain airplane called the DB-7,
Douglas Bomber 7.
And I didn't work on the bombing mechanisms. They always asked me to.
I said I don't know how to do that. Only safety devices for aircraft.
And that plane had a tendency... I built a model of it and put it into a spin tunnel,
and it went into a spin right away.
Instead of a diving spin. It was a flat spin.
An aerodynamics book said that most flat spins are fatal. The planes could not pull out.
So I went to work on that problem, and showed Ford
if you turned your wingtips this way, you can stop a flat spin.
He said, "Great. I'm going to take out a patent on it,"
in the name of Douglas Division of Northrop Aircraft.
Interviewer: Rather than the name of Jacque Fresco.
Jacque: Yeah. Everything you think of whether you're at home or not is taken by the company you work for.
And I thought that was unjust. I thought that was unfair.
I never got an increase in pay or anything.
Eventually it [a DB-7 without my modification] went into a flat spin [and crashed],
and Ford said to me, "We're in now." We both were asked to resign.
Do you understand? Interviewer: Yeah.
Jacque: Because the establishment would have been held responsible.
I was looking for justice. I thought it was unfair.
And then I realized there's no justice.
That free enterprise shifts things out because it costs less than making it here in America.
That cigarettes kill people but the government gets a good piece of the action,
that means they didn't care for people.
That was the evidence I had. And whiskey and all that junk food which goes out to people,
and then the artificial contamination of plants by genetics without long-term testing.
That was dangerous... to genetically alter a plant,
where you could grow things organically, but never a mono plant system.
You have to have mixtures of different plants that reinforce one another.
So I began to turn away from commercial agriculture, commercial science. You understand?
I was interested in science but they were owned by corporations.
Scientists made nuclear weapons.
A guy named Albert Einstein wrote a formula and he helped.
And Szilard and Oppenheimer worked on the atom bomb.
And in the Bible there was something useful. It said,
"Cast ye not peril before swine." Do you know what that means? (Interviewer: No.)
Don't give people things that they're not ready to use intelligently.
Technology became a lever of the armed forces and government
where they worked on killing machines. Because they were patriotic.
In Germany, the German scientists, some of them left,
but most of them stayed and made weapons.
In Italy, the Catholic engineers made airplanes against America.
In America the American Catholics made planes.
And the priests used to dip their stick in holy water and bless the airplanes and the war tanks.
Whereas in the Bible it says, "Thou shalt not kill. Love thy enemy. Turn the other cheek."
Interviewer: I always felt the irony in having priests and chaplains in the military was delicious irony.
Jacque: I'm telling you my background, which I think you ought to know. I just didn't come up with these ideas.
The way I was raised, I was forced to encounter those things.
Interviewer: You've seen quite a few things in your 94 years. So, I need to ask,
one of the boogeymen of the whole truth movement is David Rockefeller.
You and he are the same age. What is the secret of your longevity?
Jacque: There is no secret. There is a lot of work to do.
And I don't think in terms of eating to live. I eat.
And I like certain foods and I dislike other food.
But I was an organic vegetarian for years
until I read a book by Chunder Bose, which I never heard of.
Interviewer: Good name, Chunder. Jacque: Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose.
He was from Bose Institute in India.
He went to the science convention in England
and he explained what he was doing and they laughed him out.
He was a plant physiologist.
And years later some British scientists went to his lab
and they found out what he was doing was so...
Because what he was doing was so radical.
He took some living tissue and stretched it across two terminals.
He put a candle underneath it to see if he could register pain.
And he had an oscillo... no oscilloscope in those days,
but he had projected it on the wall by a mirror which moved very slightly.
But on the wall he got the patterns of the oscilloscope. And he said that
copper wire showed the same reaction as living substance.
He had difficulty... What a person means by life and non-life?
He said, "Well, the sun is inorganic but without it
all the plants would die and man eventually would die and all the animals.
And that's inorganic."
He failed to separate the organic with the inorganic.
They're all part of a common chain.
And his book was so different that it changed me. And I saw cancer on rabbits,
vegetarians, trees, dinosaur bones. I began to look into things.
Then I said, "What about the things that are beyond science,
the physical? The metaphysical, the telekinesis?"
Do you know what that is? (Interviewer: Yes.) Moving objects without touching them.
There're so many people that believed in that.
I said, "Jacque, why don't you check that out?"
And I read about a guy named, I forgot his name offhand, but anyway...
(Roxanne: Astoya.) Astoya! And he was from, I think it was from India.
And he said he never used the telephone. He has the power of telepathy.
And he said he never used a telephone in his life. He can always read a human mind.
So I said, "If he can do that, the hell with science. What am I busting my butt for? It takes a long time."
I and about 10 other people brought him from India to America.
And I said, "Sir, if you can read my mind just once,
I will shout it from the highest towers and tell everybody about it."
He says, "Well, I do it all the time."
So I said to him, "If you're going to read my mind,
do you want a full moon? What are your major options?" He said, "No. Anytime."
So I said, "Do you want me to face the East or West?" I wanted to give him the best conditions.
He said, "No. Just think of something."
I said, "What if it's technical?"
He said, "Well, I won't use the terminology you use but I will describe the event."
I said, "That's fair enough." But before that,
I noticed him working with people.
He was talking to a woman about 78 years old
and said, "There was a death in your family, either three months or past three years."
There's always a death in your family when you're 74 years old.
It seemed to me he was working with probability.
You know what I mean? Interviewer: The Astoya guy was working with probability.
Jacque: But that doesn't mean that he can't do that. Interviewer: No. But he can't prove it.
Jacque: So let me tell you what I did.
I pictured a little white mouse, due to my background, eating an elephant,
not getting any larger and walking out of the building.
If there is telepathy, if he gave me that... Interviewer: If he figured that out.
Jacque: I'm convinced. But he didn't give me an answer.
So I felt maybe that didn't work that time. Maybe he could really do that.
I then pictured a carpenter's saw made of metal. Can you picture that?
With two legs and it walks into the forest like this
and a tree looks at the saw, and the tree cuts the saw in half.
That's outside of probability. Do you know what I mean?
If he got that there was telepathy.
He didn't get it. He didn't get anything I thought of.
But he did, when a young girl came over...
There were only six questions or so.
Why don't I have as many dates as my sister?
And he'd give a typical story but he never did any real mind reading.
He did work with probability.
And when the girl leaned forward he was on the right track;
she leaned back he changed the subject.
Then I met another couple that said they do telepathy every day,
and had them come over to my home.
And I said, "Would you mind demonstrating it?" The guy said, "No."
He said, "I want you to go off from your own books,
bring out six or seven or ten movie actors, or ten presidents."
And he said, "Don't even whisper the names. Just point."
And I pointed at [Millard] Fillmore. This was the first time I ever met the guy.
He said, "Now, you call this guy in England, Mr. Truckmore." Do you know this story?
I called Mr. Truckmore in England.
He said, "I see a president with two puffs of hair on the side and his name is [Millard] Fillmore."
Then I pointed to a movie actor. I think it was Gary Grant, if you know who he is.
Anyway, I pointed it out. "Call this guy in New Jersey, Smithson."
I called him. He said, "I see a tall skinny actor,
an Englishman named Gary Grant." Right away.
That was the best I've seen up to then. Here's how it works.
Before I went out to investigate that,
I read everything I could on show business mental telepathy,
hundreds of books at the library, and you can get them at the Magician Society.
You're not qualified as an investigator unless you know something about the field first.
Here's what I found out. He has a friend in England
named Truckmore. If you asked Mr. Smith, he's got a list. Smith means Gary Grant.
Johnson means this actor.
The way he tells these presidents depends on the name you asked for.
Do you understand that, or not?
By the way, I want to tell you, there was a friend of mine who was an engineer and he said,
"There's a Reverend May Taylor in California
that has a church called The Church of the Living Dead." That's the name. I don't...
She goes through the whole audience.
"You had a son killed in an automobile accident on February the 8th."
Right down everybody in the audience.
I went to that church because if that's true,
then my system is limited.
I didn't sign the guest book.
When you enter you can sign the guestbook.
That's what they do with a lot of telepathists, soothsayers.
When you sign the guest book they say have a seat and they go back to see if they got anything on you.
You go to the hall of records in a small town.
"You had a brother killed in an automobile accident on February the 4th."
And they build a record from the hall of records.
So when you come in, they say "Would you sign the guest book?",
the minute you sign it, they go back to see if they have information on you.
I just want to tell you why.
I didn't sign the guestbook and she went over everybody in the church and skipped over me,
but that doesn't mean that she can't do that.
So I asked 10 friends of mine to go to that church and sit
separately but don't sign the guestbook.
I wanted to check around to see if she was real. And she skipped over those 10 people.
What conclusion can I draw? You understand?
Reverend May Taylor made millions.
Okay? And I didn't like what I saw.
Now, the guy that sent me there was sincere, but he didn't know how it was done.
Then two priests came to my seminar,
and they said to me, "Jacque, the trouble with you is you want to work in the material world.
There are things beyond the material world."
There was a woman in Palm Springs, California
that had the power, they said, of telekinesis,
moving things without touching them.
I said, "Call her and ask if I can come there."
And the priests said, "Yes," and they did call. And she said, "Yes".
I said, "Ask her if I could check it out while it's happening.
Because I really want to know if it's true.
I don't come as a skeptic trying to disprove it.
I wanted to know." She said, "Of course."
I went to the hall of records before I went to her house.
Her father was a magician, her husband rather.
He died 10 years ago.
Now, normal people will visit you for a while,
but if your wife dies, a year you're alone. Then they diminish the visits. That was statistical.
I went to meet her. She was very pleasant, very polite.
And she put this big vase on the table
and it started to move with the lights on and everything.
No strings or anything. So I took a fountain pen I had
and I held it near the table and I got a 60 cycle hum.
I peeled the veneer off and she had a bell buzzer upside down with four rubber chalk mounts on it.
The table was highly polished, slightly tilted.
So I said, "Father Dunn, Father Dempsey, come here and look."
And she said to me, "You son of a bitch. Get the hell out of here."
I said, "I'm not your enemy.
But if you tell these kids that are here today
that you have special powers, they don't work on problems.
See, if you pray and hope that it rains...
You have to dig an irrigation ditch if you have a drought to help the plants grow."
So I said to her, "I'm not your enemy.
I understand why you're doing this. Various people come to see you.
You're lonely. And when you do this you win approval and recognition."
So she put her arms around me. We were friends again.
But I did not try to destroy her.
I began to study as much metaphysics as I could: levitation, auras.
So far, I've never found anything.
Except in a book, a religious book.
This guy had a halo and many witnesses to that.
So I got another book called "Anomalies and Curiosities in Medicine."
There are many skin diseases that are luminescent.
Did you ever see luminescent waves?
Interviewer: Yeah, bio-luminescence, in the water.
Jacque: These skin diseases produce the luminescence and they thought they were holy men.
They were just not qualified observers.
A lot of that began to fall away in my background.
Everything in my background became related to,
"Do you have an operational definition for the words you use?"
If I use words, I must have a visual picture of what those words are based on.
And that did away with a lot of bullshit, just getting closer...
I got that from semantics. Then I met semanticists.
And asked them how they would change society. They didn't know.
They had all the words worked out, but they had no operational definitions,
that is to make society better.
Then I got to meet Italian kids in America.
The Italian kids spoke like this,
"Eh. Where ya goin, ah? May me get a ride on your bike?"
Means "May I use your bike?"
And then I met Irish kids and they'd say,
"There is a fine Irish lad, a good fellow from Dublin."
And I noticed how their dialect reflected where they were coming from.
And the Southerners, "I'm gonna git me a nigger and kick his ass."
Reflection, facial movements, everything.
Then I noticed in France, they use their hands,
"Viva la France. Viva la tour Eiffel." The Eiffel Tower.
And how their lips moved, facial expressions, exactly reflecting the culture they came from.
But if they lived in Germany 10 years and came to America,
they spoke with a German American accent.
"Gott im Himmel". Means God in heaven.
And I noticed their facial expressions, language.
And if they came from a certain area of Spain,
with the high people in the court, one of them lisped when he spoke.
And all that Spanish had lisps in it.
Interviewer: Yeah. They all came from...
Jacque: You have to understand the impact of environment.
They say, "How do you know there are no genuine
people that can sense things people can't sense?"
So I would ask them... A person would come to me and says,
"I belong to a new group, well educated. Higher Consciousness."
I said, "What is that?"
"We're people who have evolved far beyond the average person."
So I said, "Are you a member?" The guy says, "Yes."
"Are you a member of the Higher Consciousness?" He said, "Yes."
I said, "Where are your kidneys?"
"I'm not sure."
So I said, "How fast is the blood moving in your veins and arteries?"
"I don't know that."
I said, "What do you mean by higher consciousness?"
If I can't check it out, how do I know what higher consciousness means?
I know what he thinks it means. He doesn't.
So anyway, I went to Trinidad
because I read in a book that they could walk over red hot coals by state of mind.
I said, "Boy, if they could do that?" You put meat on fire, it cooks.
And if you can have a state of mind where you can walk over red hot coals, I want to know about it.
I went to Trinidad because there was an Indian colony.
And I read that they could walk over read hot coals.
I went there and they do burn these coals until they have an ash,
a white ash, an inch and a half thick.
And they don't walk over red hot coals.
They move very fast over the ash. (So I did.) Interviewer: Over the powder ash.
Jacque: I walked over the same thing.
Then another guy came to me with a long needle,
a crochet needle, pulled his skin together and ran it right through his face too.
He says, "I don't feel pain." I had a friend that was a doctor there.
I said, "This guy claims he can control his pulse rate,
make it faster or slower just by thinking."
And the doctor said, "He's doing that."
So I searched under his arm. He had a cork ball.
By pressing on the cork ball it weakened his pulse.
I said, "Here, doc." He said, "Gee, I didn't see that."
I said, "I know that. Here's how it's done." Do you understand?
Before you try to investigate anything, read everything you can.
Get information. Because it's information that's closer to reality.
Interviewer: Let's come back to The Venus Project. First of all,
why did you name it The Venus Project?
Jacque: Oh, because I used to call it Sociocyberneering.
Jacque: Yeah. Which means the application of science and technology
to the betterment of all the world's people and the restoration of the environment.
As long as you have separate nations you're going to have trouble.
Interviewer: Why Venus?
Jacque: Because later on we went looking for land to build an experimental center.
And I found some land in Venus that was not sprayed with poisons, toxic [...] on plants...
Interviewer: Venus, Florida? Jacque: Venus, Florida. Yeah.
Roxanne: Nobody could pronounce the word "Sociocyberneering".
It was before "cyber" became well known and popular.
So we named it The Venus Project. We live in Venus, Florida.
Interviewer: How did you meet Peter Joseph?
Jacque: Well, Peter Joseph ran Zeitgeist film, and a lot of people wrote him.
After the film they said, "Okay. What you say is interesting and informative,
but what do you do about it? How can you change things?" He said he didn't know.
Roxanne sent him a copy of the book I wrote called... It's about a world without money.
Roxanne: "The Best That Money Can't Buy".
Jacque: Yes. It's about the world that doesn't use money.
Roxanne: He found it extremely significant.
He came right out and started filming and a year later he put out Zeitgeist Addendum.
Jacque: He said, from now on he's going to talk about The Venus Project.
Because what he talked about was valid but it didn't offer people any solutions.
And all The Venus Project deals with is "how to" accomplish this, that, surgery, whatever.
I designed thousands of surgical instruments,
electronic and mechanical, safety devices for aircraft.
Interviewer: Why do so many people on the internet worry that there's a connection between
Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World" and The Venus Project?
Jacque: Because they never investigated The Venus Project.
They think that it's machines that I want to use to run everything.
That isn't true. Here's where they get that from.
A pilot, when I was a kid, used to look out at an airplane and said, "I'm about a mile high."
Then some engineer invented Doppler radar.
It goes down to the ground, back up and tells you, "You're 5,400 feet 20 inches off the ground."
No human could do that. So I'd like to substitute that for aviator's decisions as to height.
I don't want the machine to take over. I just know I'd rather use that.
And in San Francisco it gets so foggy, you can't see three feet in front of you.
They found out that with infrared cameras they can photograph the runway.
A pilot using infrared can see the runway if he uses infrared cyberscope.
And that to me became extensional.
Now, you have to understand that word.
Technology to me is extensions of human attributes.
Without a microscope you can't see the way things are.
You can only see the way they are relative to your receptors.
But with the microscope... The first time I saw things under a microscope,
what looked smooth looked like hills and valleys.
So I said, "What's it really like?" And the guy blew it up again and it looked like slivers.
So I said, "Yeah, but what's it really like?"
He said, "That's a stupid question. It depends on your receptors."
With an electron microscope you can see particles floating around each other.
I thought I was looking for truth.
He said, "Man can't see truth. There are radio waves here that you can't see,
billions of bacteria on the table you can't see."
He said, "The search for truth is done by people that are sincere,
but have very little technical knowledge."
My vocabulary began to change and my attitude about a truth seeker.
In order to be a truth seeker you had to know everything. To know that which is true.
It became a ridiculous thing. I met a lot of people and read a lot of articles
about a young lady that was about to get into an airplane. She was about 16.
She said, something came over. She didn't know what.
But she didn't get in that plane and it took off, nosed down
and 150 people died. And she said, "Jesus saved me."
She was going to speak at the Hollywood Presbyterian Church. This was 40 years ago.
So I went there. She was telling the congregation how Jesus saved her,
all the feelings that came over her.
And they all said, "Amen. God bless you."
So I walked right up to the pulpit. I was not a member of that church.
I said, "He didn't want you. He wanted the 150 people."
That was just to show them, that little girl, that she was self-centered.
I waited outside the church to see if it affected anybody.
And they shook my hand. They said, "I'm so sorry.
I used to think that way too." Which is good.
I didn't want anybody...
Like when four of your kids were killed in a car accident
and one wasn't, the mother says, "Jesus saved him."
It's just where he was sitting in the car, in relation to the impact. You know what I mean?
So I began to think why are there car accidents?
Why can't we put a proximity device on car?
So if a guy wanted to run into you, he couldn't.
Because the proximity device would turn on your brakes.
Then, about nine, ten months ago now
there was an experiment in information retention.
And computers at that time could retain 1,000 trillion bits of information per second.
No human can do that.
So I want to put machines in Washington connected to industry,
production, agriculture, to get an overview of our capabilities.
Not to replace people that can do the job better.
And not to control people, only monitor agriculture.
Now, let me just tell you something I'm sure you don't know.
From 3000 miles up in space with infrared cameras
if you photograph the Amazon jungle you'll see all the sick trees as red, in a definite pattern.
The Earth turns under the infrared camera and we get a picture
of the state of disease of plants all over the world.
No human can do that. Those are the areas we wish to automate.
So we have a picture of the Earth
and we have a picture of the ocean, which comes out where it's contaminated in different colors.
And we can see contamination, deaths of the reefs all over the world. No human can do that.
Roxanne: People think that they're going to be taken over by machines because they think of it in terms of this society,
the monetary society, and I'd be scared shitless of machines taken over in this society.
In fact, that's what's happening. No matter how much you don't want machines to do things,
it doesn't make any difference. They're better than people.