At the time of our taping, today's guest was

nominated to be a new member of

Board of Directors of the Corporation for

National and Community Service.

So I first want to congratulate Eric Liu.

And in addition, the Aspen Institute has named him

Leader for a new Program on American Citizenship & Identity.

A former advisor and speech writer to

President Clinton and author of the recently published

A Chinaman's Chance, Eric Liu is CEO of Citizen University.

He founded the Seattle-based organization

to cultivate the values, knowledge,

and skills of effective citizenship.

Liu's Aspen project has a three prong mission ...

(1) to articulate an ethical framework for American civic identity,

(2) to propose public policy for societal cohesion, and

(3) to teach leaders to build coalitions that overcome divides.

While innovative programs have emerged,

like Liu's work and former Justice Sandra Day O'Connor's iCivics program,

in our schools there's decreased emphasis on the

importance of good citizenship.

Liu embarks on his work with the Aspen Institute

to reinvigorate the civic core of America,

as the nation continues to be plagued by stunning

apathy and illiteracy.

But I do want to ask Eric Liu to explain,

how we avoid our civic demise?

Thank you for being here, Eric.

LIU: Alexander, thank you for having me.

HEFFNER: How do we avoid that?

LIU: (Laugh) You know we avoid it by not treating

it as a thing that's happening outside us.

One, one of my core precepts of citizenship,

of, of life really, is, is the idea that society

becomes how you behave. Right.

And in some ways this, you know,

on the one hand it seems sort of like a common

place, common sense thing to say,

but if you actually sit with it and think about it

for a moment ... it runs quite contrary to a lot of

the messages we get in American life.

The dominant messages we get in American life are essentially

a) every man for himself,

b) I, I should be able to do whatever the heck

I want as long as I'm not actively harming somebody else.

Don't, don't tread on me, right ... that,

that's the main message.

And "Don't tread on me" is,

of course, you know, part of the big bang

of American creation.

But it's not really a guide for how to live in community. Right.

It's not really a guide for how to be a grown up,

pro-social human in, in a society.

And so I think when you think about society

becomes how you behave ... if you choose to be

engaged or disengaged, if you choose to be civil or

uncivil, if you choose to be compassionate or not

compassionate, courteous or not courteous,

it's not just about you ... it's not just that,

you know, if ... okay I'm going to be selfish today.

And someone else's altruism will cancel out

my selfishness, it will all work out just fine. No.

If you choose to be selfish,

it is as contagious as a virus.

Your selfishness affects, gives permission to people

all around, it changes norms and mores around you

in ways that are completely viral, right?

And so when it comes to something like this,

about apathy and civic decline,

we can't treat this as kind of exogenous to us. Right?

It, it's part of us.

And so if we want to change that,

if we want a politics that is more responsive,

if we want a civic life where people show up more

for each other, guess what ... we got to do that,

each one of us. Right?

And I think that's the ... there's a great billboard

that I once saw that captures this,

this ethic, Alexander, it was on a,

the side of a really congested highway ...

it might have been I-5, you know,

out West where I'm from ... and you know,

traffic was basically a parking lot,

nothing was moving.

And this billboard said, "You're not stuck in

traffic ... you are traffic" ... right ... and,

and that to me encapsulates the spirit of ...

you're not separate from the problem if there is a

problem, you are part of the problem and either you

are actively working to solve it,

or to, to move it in the other direction ...

or you are contributing to it.

And so when it comes to civic decline or voting,

for instance, there is no such thing as not participating. Right?

Not participating is participating in a

noxious, harmful direction.

HEFFNER: But to what extent can this idea of

rugged individualism comport with crafting

a civic identity?

LIU: You know, I think the,

(coughs) the history of the United States is a

history of melding exactly those two things.

You know we aren't ...

HEFFNER: But they're in conflict right now.

LIU: They're, they're in tension ...

they're in tension.

You know America is a set of constant,

continuing tensions and arguments. Right?

A tension between one notion of liberty ...

which is "Don't tread on me" and the idea of equality. Right?

There's all ... there's an inherent tension there.

There's a tension between rugged individualism

and "we're all in it together." Right?

But these things I don't think of as mutually exclusive.

What American life is all about is trying to figure

out at different times the tug and the pull between

those things and whether we've gone too far in one

direction or another.

But when you think ... again,

about the Founding generation and,

and we, today, in the, you know,

in the 21st century like to think about the

founders and that whole cohort as these radical

individualists, as if each of them was just an

atomistic, you know, libertarian paragon.

No, that entire Colonial generation was steeped in

a deep sense of communitarianism,

in a deep sense of relationship and obligation,

in a deep sense that every right that you

might have or exercise or claim,

was bound up with a big set of responsibilities, too. Right?

And somehow, over ... particularly the last few

decades in American life, the responsibilities half

of that equation has, has fallen away and it's just

"rights, rights, rights".

HEFFNER: You identify an important word in our

political lexicon, communitarianism as

opposed to collectivism which has been demonized by the Right.

So how do you strife for that concept

in an apolitical way?

And how are you going to carry that forward in your

Aspen Institute work?

LIU: Well, again, this is, this not a word that

either I have coined or an idea that I have invented.

Communitarianism is how Plymouth Colony got built.

Communitarianism is how barns got raised

across the American West.

Communitarianism is how the,

the men who landed on Normandy Beach ... ah,

on Omaha Beach in Normandy ... managed to turn the tide

of history on D-Day.

Communitarianism is how people of all races and

classes and backgrounds came together during the

Civil Rights Movement to redeem the creed

of the United States. Right?

So, this is not some foreign Communistic,

you know, un-American Socialist thing.

This is how, essentially, every time this country

has made progress, it's because we've taken a big

old dose of a spirit of community.

And a big old dose of remembering that when we ...

that we're better together.

HEFFNER: Well, that's, that's a great campaign

mantra, but unfortunately in our politics

and in our schools, I might add, there is an absence

of that leadership, that direction

towards communitarianism.

LIU: This new program that,

that I've launched at the Aspen Institute on

Citizenship and American identity is really meant

to address that question on a few different levels.

So, it's not so much about classroom activity,

although I'm very interested in things like

what you mentioned at the outset,

iCivics.org, the, the online platform that

Justice O'Connor has created in retirement from

the Supreme Court where the middle school kids can

play, essentially video games to learn different

aspects of civics.

All that is great.

What we're going to focus on at Aspen is how we

change the culture. Right.

Aspen, the Aspen Institute is a,

is an incredible platform and hub of leaders from

every sector in the United States and around the world.

My, my focus is here on the U.S.

You know, leaders from media and the arts,

leaders from politics, leaders from business,

leaders from philanthropy. Right.

And, you know, your question of how do we form

a norm, basically, you know my theory of action

is basically simultaneously,

you know, from the top and from the middle out. Right.

From the top ... it does ... leadership does matter.

Making sure that we cultivate new cohorts

of leaders across different sectors who speak

this language of community.

Who are grounded in the ethics and the values that

are inherent in different parts of the American creed. Right.

Who, who recognize that the history of this

country is, is one that properly told is about

this interplay of community and individual liberty. Right.

And that's just ... as you say,

it's a language that is essentially abandoned in

how we form leaders in every sector today,

not just in our schools, but in our adult institutions.

And so part of what we want to do is basically

to be convening leaders across all different

sectors and giving, giving them permission in way

that modern life doesn't give them to do a big,

deep dive ethically, morally,

historically on what the content of our citizenship

is here in the United States. Right?

And to remind themselves, and to be reminded by others

of, of this dimension of communitarianism.

The other piece though that's more "middle out"

is really finding ways to reach Americans where they are. Right.

And, and sometimes, you know,

the realty of our times, one of the reasons why

I wanted to launch this program at Aspen is ...

it's not just as you allude to that there's a gradual

decline in civil knowledge in this country,

but it comes at a moment where we are experiencing

some of the most radical, severe,

income inequality, wealth concentration and,

and essentially just social fragmentation in

this country than we've seen in a good long time.

And it becomes more necessary than ever for us

to figure out what's the new story of us? Right.

And so a big part of what we're going to do in this

Aspen Program on Citizenship and American

identity is going to different parts of the

country and essentially asking folks

"What is the story you tell of America?"

How do you define America?

How do you define American?

And ... this is a moment where people need,

again, to be both given permission and a little

prodding to do that reflection because the

answer, the story is not the same story that you

might have given two, three, four decades ago.

There was a time when to be American was to be White,

to become American was to quote

"become White, to try to become White" and,

and that was the end of the story.