字幕表 動画を再生する 英語字幕をプリント I’m so happy all of you are here. You have no idea what a light you all bring to such a dark place, and how horribly, horribly sad we are when you all leave. So if you guys wanna, like, move and find jobs, and, you know? I’ll run support services; I’ll, like, you know, find you a place to live and try to help you find a job and stuff… no? no takers? I wouldn’t come here either, but that’s just me. So, my husband, if you ever get a chance to talk to him, he’ll talk to a small group. He doesn’t do big crowds. To him, this is a big crowd, so… He has an amazing story, and he’s fun to talk to, so if you can get him and get a few of you together, he’ll talk to you; he just can’t do this. He goes mute. Which is weird, ‘cause he’s never mute. But, so, I’ll try and keep it upbeat and happy, ‘cause if I cry it’s ugly. I cry like Lucille Ball. It’s not graceful and pretty, so… I was a fourth-generation Mormon, and I did it all wrong the first time I got married. I didn’t marry a returned missionary, against my family’s wishes; attributed the long road of, uh, not a good marriage to, largely to that; there were some other issues. But that marriage finally ended after twenty years and four children, part because he just wasn’t on board with the LDS path, and part because of some other stuff. So I left, I took my children, and I started over. That’s where I met my present husband, Steve, who was a returned missionary and we dated. My children adored him, and I thought, “okay, cool, I’m gonna do it right this time.” So it was all in order, so we kind of had a whirlwind romance, we get married, we build a house, together we have seven children. And about a year into this, we were now settled, and I have it all lined up. I have the returned missionary, I have the priesthood holder, um… Back a little bit, when I was married previously, I lost a daughter at birth. K? So, she is some somewhere. In my Mormon world, she’s now floating in the great abyss. K? So, I now have my priesthood holder, so we can go to the temple. We’re now going to be sealed, and I’m gonna have my forever family -- which, to a Mormon mom, that’s the ultimate thing. ‘Cause I get to have my kids, and I get to raise my daughter in heaven. The catch: if I don’t, they’re going to give her to a worthy Mormon family to raise in heaven, and I don’t get to. So there’s really not an option here. K? So my, my ducks are all in a row; we’re gonna start temple classes. About this time, my husband gets witnessed to at work, by the man that will eventually, for all sakes and purposes, “ruins my life as I know it.” Ken Gilbert. They’re not here, huh? An amazing holy boldness man, I adore him now; he’s one of my dearest friends, but it, at the time, he, he, he’d ruin my life. He gets with my husband, my husband’s going to get him back into the Mormon church. He is, in turn, going to teach my husband about Jesus. So they start talking, they exchange literature. That’s where my first, my husband first came in contact -- it’s his first “anti-Mormon stuff.” So he… so he sneaks it into my house, literally hides it, and waits for me to leave, so that he can watch it. And that’s kinda where his story begins. It kinda continues in this secretive thing, his degree’s in anthropology and archaeology. So, the DNA versus the… Steve’s. So my husband’s. So, that’s kinda where his, the DNA versus the Book of Mormon was earth-shattering for him. And so he’s studying on his own, and I -- I had questions, K, I wasn’t this perfect little Mormon girl, I had questions, things that didn’t make sense, but I was completely convinced that I’d find the answers within the Mormon church. That it was my lack of understanding, not that the church was wrong. I really thought that it was just me. So, he starts to search, and we’re preparing to do this big path, and the more he searches, the bigger the hole gets. Things start to fall apart. So he’s still talkin’ to Ken, and he starts to come to me with small things. Kind of feeling the waters to see how it would be perceived. Met him with complete resistance and anger, fear. I was afraid and, at first it was like “ha ha, yeah, that’s funny,” but then I started to see a seriousness about him. And that’s kind where it kinda turns really, really ugly. And, it kind of escalates into a situation where I find the anti-Mormon stuff. It was like finding porn in my house. I threw it across my bedroom, I felt completely betrayed. Uh, I felt like he had deceived me, and it was uh, it started the beginning of a year-long civil war within my house. And I do mean a civil war. Mormon women typically aren’t submissive, K? That’s kind of a four-letter word; it kinda means you’re a doormat, because we don’t understand godly submission. It means that the man has complete and utter total power over you, and we’re like, “no he doesn’t.” And so, it was a clash-- it was clash of the titans. It was horrible. And I’d only been in a year, so I’m thinking “I can fix this. It would be another divorce, but I have to get back on the path somehow. I can’t be called out of the grave unless he knows my name. He’s not gonna know my name, unless he goes to this temple to learn my name. I can’t have my family unless I have him sealed to me.” K, so I had to choose now between him -- my marriage -- and my daughter, and my children. As far as I was concerned, he was going to outer darkness; he’s now an apostate. ‘Cause it finally escalated to him, to where he, he denounced the Mormon church. So, he’d walk in a room; I’d walk out. Uh, we have a family cabin that we’d go to, it was like our little place; it’s where we were married. I wouldn’t go there with him anymore. He went alone. It was not good. There was no friendship left. I was fearful; was so close, so close to leaving, I had a plan, and one call to the Mormon church, just one call, they would’ve swooped me and my children up, they would’ve helped me relocate, and they-- they would’ve paid my way. Not only that, his family would’ve helped me, against him. If I would’ve called them and said, “He’s, he’s an apostate; he’s leaving the church,” they would’ve taken my side against him. And so, Satan had the hugest opportunity to destroy my family, completely destroy it. And everyone’s like, “well, what did it? What did it?” It was just a process of things. So during this year-long war, he would, he would give me tidbits. Uh, things that he knew would matter to me. Like, Joseph Smith had thirty-three wives. He knows how I feel about polygamy. He knows how I feel about old man sleeping with young girls, as Susan and I have talked about. It just isn’t okay. So he gave me this tidbits, he’d kind of lure me to a safe place where I would think that he wouldn’t talk to me, and then he’d, like, drop a bombshell on me. Then I’d freak out, and like go and slam doors, and … eventually, I’m going to the Mormon church, K? Every single Sunday. He’s now following me to the Mormon church, in a purple shirt, with a Christian Bible. For those of you who don’t know the Mormon culture, it can’t get much worse, K, it just doesn’t. You wear a white shirt, and a tie, and you don’t bring a Christian Bible. You bring your quad, or your various Mormon… Mormon books. Back to the purple shirt and how that came about: right at the end of where he’s ready to say “I’m not doing this anymore,” uh, he went into priesthood with this purple shirt on, K, and he, he, he still was, hadn’t said no more yet. They gave the lesson that day on “if you, you’re not a godly man unless you wear this white shirt, because it represents your obedience to God, and your willingness to submit to God.” So there he sits in a purple shirt, the only one not in a white shirt out of probably twenty-four men. He meets me in the lobby; he’s furious. He has two fingers in his tie that he’s now ripping off, in the foyer with everyone around; he’s livid. And he said, “This is so stupid, like it matters what color of shirt I have on.” K? I’m, like, dying. And I’m thinking, “Okay, you’re crazy. I’ve had it with you.” I make to the vehicle, I’m gonna leave him. I’m gonna show him. So I’m gonna get into the vehicle, I’m gonna lock the doors, I’m gonna drive home, make him walk. (It’s not that far. It’s like two blocks.) Anyway, I’m makin’ a point here. He knows me. As soon as he sees me hightail it outta there, he thinks “she’s gonna leave me.” So we have this race to the vehicle. Mormons are everywhere, K? I don’t make it. I get in, I shut the door, I hit the thing just as he opens the door. I’m screaming, “Get out! Walk home. I don’t want you near me.” He’s like, “I’m not getting out.” He gets in, shuts the door, he says “let’s go home.” Every morning, we would have the same screaming match in my closet. I would say “please, just stay here. Please don’t go to church with me. Please.” And he said, “you’re my wife. I’m going where you go.” And I said “but you don’t even believe it!” He said “neither do you. You just don’t know it yet.” So, away we’d go, with him in his purple shirt and his big fat Bible that Ken gave him, the guy who ruined my life… so, where we would sit in Gospel Doctrine class-- this is the day that was really good. They wrote “The New Covenant” on the board, and underneath it in parentheses they put “(the Book of Mormon).” He went nuts. He’s flipping through Scripture, he’s pointing, he’s sliding it across to me and he’s pointing. Now everyone’s no longer at who’s teaching; they’re turning around, looking at us. I’m wanting to die. So from that day forward, I said “you can’t do that to me anymore.” I said, “that’s not okay.” He said “okay, you’re right. That probably wasn’t okay.” And he said, “so, when you go, what are you looking for?” And I said “Jesus.” He said, “Okay,” he said, “well do they teach about Jesus?” I’m like, “it’s the ‘Church of Jesus Christ’; are you a moron? Of course they teach me about Jesus.” He said “Do they?” He said “Here,” he said “just, I want you to be just a little bit more observant. If that’s what you’re looking for,” he said, “then from now on, I just want you to just be aware of how much Jesus you’re getting.” I’m like okay, that’s fair. So as I keep going, he lays off on the pointing and the… he doesn’t lay off on the weird-colored shirts and the big fat Bible, but he lays off on the pointing and the antics and the things in the foyer, and stuff of that nature. And, so I went for another three months: there’s no Jesus. There’s no mention of him except for in prayer. That’s it. We touched on everything else -- everything else imaginable -- but there was no Jesus. And so, by this time I’m wearing down, I’m hungry, and I’m empty, and I feel alone, and I’m scared, and I don’t know what I’m gonna do, and my only answer is I have to end this mess, and try to start over again. Somewhere along here he kind of changes his antics, and it’s because God had changed him. I look, in hindsight I look back and it’s because he was becoming a new man. K? I didn’t understand; at the time, I just thought “well, he’s getting it.” He started to approach me with way more love. Instead of dive-bombing me, he was, he was telling me in love when he was saying things like “this is, I love you so much, the last thing I want to do on this earth is hurt you, and the last thing I want you to do is leave me.” And he said “I just, I need to, there’s all this stuff that I know, and I need somebody to talk to.” And I didn’t listen for a long, long time. There was one day when there’d kind of been a truce. We’d agreed to disagree, and tried to stop fighting. For the children. And he’d called me on his way home from Salt Lake, and he said “I’m gonna go fishing at the cabin. Will you please come with me?” He said, “I promise I’ll be good,” he said “I-- just come with me.” And I said “okay, I’ll go with you.” Well, he stopped at a Christian bookstore, and he prayed in the parking lot. He said “God, just give me something to reach her that won’t offend her, that won’t drive her farther away from me, that’ll open her heart,” and so he went in, and he, he picked a book by John Hagee, it was written by him and his wife. There was like, it’s like a two-sided book; you flip it upside-down, she wrote half, he wrote half. So we went up and our thing was, he fishes and I read out loud to him, whatever we’re reading at the time. So, we go down fishing, and he gets it out of his backpack (poor man, he must’ve been scared to death), and he just said “I, I got a book for us to read together.” And he said, “it has nothing to do with Mormonism.” He said “it’s just a Christian book.” And he said, “will you just read it?” He goes, “if you hate it, we don’t have to read it.” I said okay, so we started with her side, and I’m sitting on this rock, and my man dressed in, I don’t know, ragged sandals and yucky shorts and a tank top, and he’s fishing, and she’s describing what a godly man is. And I’m looking as I’m reading, and it’s standing before me. And it doesn’t have on a white shirt, and a pressed tie, and slacks, and shiny black shoes. And it was profound to me, because that’s the first time in a year that I had ever looked at him as being even remotely in God’s realm. K? From that point, he was being led by Satan, he was hanging out with Satan’s friends, he was listening to Satan, and he was as far away from God as, as I felt he could possibly be at that time. I would say that that was, uh, the, the beginning of a new beginning for us. I was subdued that day. I wasn’t angry. I wasn’t happy, but I wasn’t angry. And so, from that, I started to just look at him with new eyes. I started to see him like God saw him. And I started to see him get up every single morning, into Scripture, ‘cause he wanted to. Not only was he into Scripture, but he was studying. And he’d have several things out. And he was actually, uh, comparing what he was learning. It was actually like this really well thought-out process, not just another path to take. ‘Cause before that, I thought he’d taken the high road. I said well isn’t that easy. He’d tried several times to explain grace to me, and I’d tell him “there’s no such thing as a free lunch, Steve. There just isn’t.” It didn’t make any sense to me at all. So I started to soften, I don’t know that I started to listen to him, but some. In here, there were things that I would tell me there’s no evidence, like six hundred years of a civilization of people that there’s no evidence for. The church doesn’t actually come out and say that there’s evidence, but they allude you to believe that there’s evidence. K? So I started to search. Now I’m doing my own thing when he leaves the house. I look and see when he’s gone down the road, now I’m looking. I was a good girl, though. I stayed within the church websites. And the more things I looked up, now my hole starts to get bigger. I validated the stuff with Joseph Smith, I read the quote where he claims to be better than Jesus, that he could keep the church together and not even Jesus could do that, and that he has so many reasons to boast. Even in my most Mormon world, that quote sickened me. It wasn’t okay. My testimony, by this point, of Joseph Smith is now pretty gone. Not that it was ever super strong, K? Joseph Smith was never, I would never sing “Praise to the Man.” Never felt like he was a man that needed to be praised, never really got that. He was just a prophet, like any other prophet. He, but he was a man. So now Joseph Smith’s over here, but I’m still gonna, it’s the Church of Jesus Christ, not the Church of Joseph Smith, so I’m still okay, for all rights and purposes. As I look, my hole starts to get bigger, I’m confused, I’m going to church, there’s no Jesus. I’m becoming more empty, and more lost, and more broken than I’d ever been in my whole, whole life. In hindsight, he was leading me to the desert. He was. He wanted me to famine. He wanted me empty that he could fill me. And that’s exactly what he did. There was one day when he stood between me and the door; I couldn’t get out. And he just said “Tell me what you believe.” I said “it’s none of your business what I believe.” He said “I’m your husband; it is business what you believe.” He said, “If you’re so sure what you believe,” he said, “just tell me.” So I rattled my best, whatever I rattled, it was something to do with Jesus and something something. He just, he started to laugh and he said, “That’s the heart of Christian woman, not a Mormon woman.” If I could’ve hit him with something, I would have. ‘Cause that wasn’t a compliment at the time. And he just said, he said “It is all about Jesus.” He said, “But he’s all you need.” And then he just proceeded to ask me, he said, “will you please just listen to me? Please.” He said, “you’re my wife, you’re my friend. You’re all I’ve got.” He said “I have nobody. I can’t talk to my coworkers, I can’t talk to my family, I can’t talk to my friends.” He said “I can’t talk to our children.” He said, “I have no one.” He said “And it’s your job! You’re supposed, God says you’re supposed to be my friend. And you’re supposed to listen to me.” And I knew he was right. And I said “Okay.” I said, “You get one shot.” So I sat down, I shut my mouth, and I listened. K, if anyone knows my husband, he probably won’t remember your name, and some days he doesn’t remember mine. That’s just him. He recited Scripture like it was before him on a paper. God worked through him; he remembered everything. He remembered everything he’d ever studied, every answer he’d ever found, how he found it, where it was, and every Scripture to back that up. How, how he had came to the knowledge that he could trust the Bible, how he had came to the knowledge that he couldn’t trust the Book of Mormon, K, and it, this was constant talking, took about, probably about half hour.