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  • Bruno Giussani: Commissioner, thank you for coming to TED.

    (ブルーノ・ジュッサーニ)高等弁務官 TEDにようこそお越し下さいました

  • António Guterres: Pleasure.


  • BG: Let's start with a figure.


  • During 2015, almost one million refugees and migrants arrived in Europe

    2015年 100万人にも及ぶ 難民・移民が欧州に押し寄せました

  • from many different countries,


  • of course, from Syria and Iraq, but also from Afghanistan

    シリア イラクはもとより アフガニスタンや

  • and Bangladesh and Eritrea and elsewhere.


  • And there have been reactions of two different kinds:


  • welcoming parties and border fences.


  • But I want to look at it a little bit

    ここで少し 短期的

  • from the short-term and the long-term perspective.

    長期的な視点に分けて 見ていきたいと思います

  • And the first question is very simple:

    まず ひとつめの問いは 至って単純です

  • Why has the movement of refugees spiked so fast in the last six months?

    なぜ過去6か月で難民の動きが 急に突出したのでしょうか

  • AG: Well, I think, basically, what triggered this huge increase

    (グテーレス)この急増を起こした 基本的な理由は

  • was the Syrian refugee group.


  • There has been an increased movement into Europe from Africa, from Asia,

    アフリカやアジアから欧州への 移民は増加傾向にありましたが

  • but slowly growing, and all of a sudden we had this massive increase

    緩やかな伸びでした それが突然 今年初めに

  • in the first months of this year.


  • Why? I think there are three reasons,

    それはなぜか 3つの理由が考えられます

  • two long-term ones and the trigger.

    長期的理由が2つ そして きっかけの3点です

  • The long-term ones, in relation to Syrians,


  • is that hope is less and less clear for people.

    シリア人の希望が 薄らいできたことにあります

  • I mean, they look at their own country

    つまり 自国に目を向けると

  • and they don't see much hope to go back home,

    帰国してもその先の希望が 見えないのです

  • because there is no political solution,


  • so there is no light at the end of the tunnel.


  • Second, the living conditions

    ふたつ目は 近隣諸国における

  • of the Syrians in the neighboring countries have been deteriorating.

    シリア人の生活環境が 悪化していることです

  • We just had research with the World Bank,


  • and 87 percent of the Syrians in Jordan


  • and 93 percent of the Syrians in Lebanon

    そしてレバノン国内の シリア人の93%が

  • live below the national poverty lines.


  • Only half of the children go to school,


  • which means that people are living very badly.


  • Not only are they refugees, out of home,


  • not only have they suffered what they have suffered,

    またそれぞれの苦労を 強いられてきたのみならず

  • but they are living in very, very dramatic conditions.


  • And then the trigger was when all of a sudden,

    そして3つ目 きっかけとしては

  • international aid decreased.


  • The World Food Programme was forced, for lack of resources,

    世界食糧計画は 資源不足から

  • to cut by 30 percent food support to the Syrian refugees.

    シリア難民への食糧支援の 30%削減を余儀なくされました

  • They're not allowed to work,


  • so they are totally dependent on international support,


  • and they felt, "The world is abandoning us."


  • And that, in my opinion, was the trigger.

    私が思うに そこがきっかけです

  • All of a sudden, there was a rush,

    ある時急に ざっと

  • and people started to move in large numbers


  • and, to be absolutely honest,


  • if I had been in the same situation


  • and I would have been brave enough to do it,


  • I think I would have done the same.


  • BG: But I think what surprised many people is it's not only sudden,

    (ジュッサーニ)人々を驚かせたのは 出来事が急なだけでなく―

  • but it wasn't supposed to be sudden.


  • The war in Syria has been happening for five years.


  • Millions of refugees are in camps and villages and towns around Syria.

    何百万人もの難民が シリア近郊のキャンプや村や町にいます

  • You have yourself warned about the situation

    たとえば あなた自身もこの状況や

  • and about the consequences of a breakdown of Libya, for example,

    リビア崩壊の影響について 警告をされていました

  • and yet Europe looked totally unprepared.

    にもかかわらず 欧州は準備不足に見えました

  • AG: Well, unprepared because divided,

    (グテーレス)そう 分裂状態だからです

  • and when you are divided, you don't want to recognize the reality.

    世の中が分裂していると 現実を見なくなります

  • You prefer to postpone decisions,


  • because you do not have the capacity to make them.


  • And the proof is that even when the spike occurred,

    その証拠に 難民の急増が見られた時でさえ

  • Europe remained divided


  • and was unable to put in place a mechanism to manage the situation.

    この状況に取り組むための制度を 整えられませんでした

  • You talk about one million people.


  • It looks enormous,


  • but the population of the European Union is 550 million people,


  • which means we are talking about one per every 2,000 Europeans.

    [550] 人に対して難民1人の割合です

  • Now, in Lebanon, we have one refugee per three Lebanese.

    それに比べ レバノンでは 3人に対して難民1人の割合です

  • And Lebanon? Struggling, of course, but it's managing.

    うまくいっているか? 苦労しつつも持ちこたえています

  • So, the question is: is this something that could have been managed

    問題は これは対処できることで あったのではないかということです

  • if -- not mentioning the most important thing,


  • which would have been addressing the root causes,


  • but forgetting about root causes for now,


  • looking at the phenomenon as it is --


  • if Europe were able to come together in solidarity

    もし欧州の国々が団結して 入国地点での

  • to create an adequate reception capacity of entry points?

    適切な受け入れ許容数を 設定できていたとしたら?

  • But for that, the countries at entry points need to be massively supported,

    しかし そのためには受け入れ拠点への 多大なる支援が必要です

  • and then screening the people with security checks

    セキュリティチェックや その他のあらゆる手立てで

  • and all the other mechanisms,


  • distributing those that are coming into all European countries,

    入ってくる人々を 各国の受け入れ能力にしたがって

  • according to the possibilities of each country.


  • I mean, if you look at the relocation program


  • that was approved by the Commission, always too little too late,

    いつものごとく 弁務官事務所の承認は少し遅すぎ

  • or by the Council, too little too late --


  • BG: It's already breaking down.


  • AG: My country is supposed to receive four thousand.

    (グテーレス)我が国は 4000人を受け入れるべきです

  • Four thousand in Portugal means nothing.

    ポルトガルにとっては 大した数ではありません

  • So this is perfectly manageable if it is managed,

    やりようによっては 対処できるはずです

  • but in the present circumstances, the pressure is at the point of entry,

    現状で 切迫しているのは 入国地点であり

  • and then, as people move in this chaotic way through the Balkans,

    難民はバルカン諸国をそれぞれに やっとのことで通過し

  • then they come to Germany, Sweden, basically, and Austria.

    ドイツやスウェーデン オーストリアに行き着くのです

  • They are the three countries that are, in the end, receiving the refugees.

    結局のところ 受け入れは この3国が行っているためです

  • The rest of Europe is looking without doing much.

    その他の国は 静観するのみです

  • BG: Let me try to bring up three questions,


  • playing a bit devil's advocate.


  • I'll try to ask them, make them blunt.


  • But I think the questions are very present

    今まさに 欧州で

  • in the minds of many people in Europe right now,


  • The first, of course, is about numbers.


  • You say 550 million versus one million is not much, but realistically,

    5.5億人に対し100万人は 大したことないと でも 現実的に

  • how many people can Europe take?

    欧州は 何人受け入れ可能ですか?

  • AG: Well, that is a question that has no answer,


  • because refugees have the right to be protected.


  • And there is such a thing as international law,


  • so there is no way you can say, "I take 10,000 and that's finished."

    「1万人でおしまい」とは 誰も言えないのです

  • I remind you of one thing:


  • in Turkey, at the beginning of the crisis, I remember one minister saying,

    トルコで この危機の初め頃 ある大臣は

  • "Turkey will be able to receive up to 100,000 people."


  • Turkey has now two million three-hundred thousand


  • or something of the sort, if you count all refugees.

    230万人くらいの規模で 受け入れています

  • So I don't think it's fair to say how many we can take.

    ですので何人と言ってしまうのは 公平でありません

  • What it is fair to say is: how we can we organize ourselves

    公平に話し合うこと それは国際的責任を取るために

  • to assume our international responsibilities?


  • And Europe has not been able to do so,


  • because basically, Europe is divided because there is no solidarity

    連帯意識の欠如が統一を妨げ つまり欧州は

  • in the European project.


  • And it's not only about refugees; there are many other areas.

    難民問題以外の 数々の分野でもそうです

  • And let's be honest, this is the moment in which we need more Europe

    率直に申し上げて 今こそ欧州が

  • instead of less Europe.


  • But as the public less and less believes in European institutions,

    しかし 欧州機関に対する 人々の信頼が薄れていく程に

  • it is also each time more difficult to convince the public

    問題解決のため 欧州がさらに存在感を増すべきという

  • that we need more Europe to solve these problems.


  • BG: We seem to be at the point


  • where the numbers turn into political shifts, particularly domestically.

    数字が 特に国内の政治を動かしています

  • We saw it again this weekend in France,

    今週末は またフランスで

  • but we have seen it over and over in many countries:


  • in Poland and in Denmark and in Switzerland and elsewhere,

    ポーランドやデンマーク スイスなどでも

  • where the mood changes radically because of the numbers,

    数字によって 世情がかなり変わっていますが

  • although they are not very significant in absolute numbers.


  • The Prime Minister of --


  • AG: But, if I may, on these:


  • I mean, what does a European see at home


  • in a village where there are no migrants?


  • What a European sees is, on television,

    目にしているのは テレビで

  • every single day, a few months ago, opening the news every single day,

    数ヶ月前には 毎日毎日 ニュースの冒頭で

  • a crowd coming, uncontrolled,

    大勢の人々が 統制もされず

  • moving from border to border,


  • and the images on television were of hundreds


  • or thousands of people moving.


  • And the idea is that nobody is taking care of it --

    そして このことに対して 誰も何もしていない―

  • this is happening without any kind of management.

    何ら管理体制もないままに 起きていることから

  • And so their idea was, "They are coming to my village."

    さらには「難民が自分の村に やってくる」と考えて

  • So there was this completely false idea that Europe was being invaded

    欧州は侵略され 生活が一変してしまうのだという

  • and our way of life is going to change, and everything will --


  • And the problem is that if this had been properly managed,

    問題なのは きちんと対処していれば

  • if people had been properly received,


  • welcomed, sheltered at point of entry, screened at point of entry,

    歓迎され 入国地点で保護され 入国地点で検問を受け

  • and the moved by plane to different European countries,


  • this would not have scared people.


  • But, unfortunately, we have a lot of people scared,

    残念ながら 多くの人は恐れています

  • just because Europe was not able to do the job properly.

    欧州がきちんと 対処できなかったがためにです

  • BG: But there are villages in Germany


  • with 300 inhabitants and 1,000 refugees.

    村人300人に対し 難民が1000人いる村もあります

  • So, what's your position?


  • How do you imagine these people reacting?


  • AG: If there would be a proper management of the situation


  • and the proper distribution of people all over Europe,

    欧州全体で難民の配分を 分担していれば

  • you would always have the percentage that I mentioned:

    先に述べた通り つまりは

  • one per each 2,000.


  • It is because things are not properly managed


  • that in the end we have situations


  • that are totally impossible to live with, and of course if you have a village --

    とても受け入れられないような状況に 陥っています

  • in Lebanon, there are many villages

    レバノンの多くの村では シリア人が

  • that have more Syrians than Lebanese; Lebanon has been living with that.

    レバノン人よりも多いところもありますが なんとかやっています

  • I'm not asking for the same to happen in Europe,

    私は難民がすべての村の 人口を上回るという

  • for all European villages to have more refugees than inhabitants.

    同じ状況を欧州に 望んでいるわけではありません

  • What I am asking is for Europe to do the job properly,

    きちんと対処するよう 欧州に要請しているだけで

  • and to be able to organize itself to receive people


  • as other countries in the world were forced to do in the past.

    受け入れのために体制を 整えてほしいだけなのです

  • BG: So, if you look at the global situation not only at Europe --


  • (Applause)


  • BG: Yes!


  • (Applause)


  • BG: If you look at the global situation, so, not only at Europe,

    (ジュッサーニ)世界の状況を見ると 欧州だけでなく

  • I know you can make a long list of countries


  • that are not really stepping up,


  • but I'm more interested in the other part --


  • is there somebody who's doing the right thing?

    正しい事をしている人が いるのかという点です

  • AG: Well, 86 percent of the refugees in the world


  • are in the developing world.


  • And if you look at countries like Ethiopia --

    国としてエチオピアを 例に見ると―

  • Ethiopia has received more than 600,000 refugees.

    60万人以上の難民を エチオピアは受け入れており

  • All the borders in Ethiopia are open.


  • And they have, as a policy,


  • they call the "people to people" policy that every refugee should be received.

    全ての難民を受け入れるとする 「人から人へ」というものがあります

  • And they have South Sudanese,


  • they have Sudanese, they have Somalis.


  • They have all the neighbors.


  • They have Eritreans.


  • And, in general,


  • African countries are extremely welcoming of refugees coming,

    アフリカ諸国は難民を 大いに歓迎しています

  • and I would say that in the Middle East


  • and in Asia, we have seen a tendency for borders to be open.


  • Now we see some problems with the Syrian situation,

    シリアの状況が 安全保障危機に転化したために

  • as the Syrian situation evolved into also a major security crisis,


  • but the truth is that for a large period,

    実を言うと 長い間

  • all borders in the Middle East were open.


  • The truth is that for Afghans,

    アフガン人に対して 当時は

  • the borders of Pakistan and Iran were open for, at the time,


  • six million Afghans that came.


  • So I would say that even today, the trend in the developing world


  • has been for borders to be open.


  • The trend in the developed world is for these questions to become

    先進国の傾向はといえば こうした問題が

  • more and more complex,


  • especially when there is, in the public opinion,

    一方では 難民の保護について

  • a mixture of discussions between refugee protections on one side

    そして私に言わせれば誤った見解ですが もう一方では安全保障問題について

  • and security questions -- in my opinion, misinterpreted -- on the other side.

    世論がごちゃ混ぜの議論を する場合は特にそうです

  • BG: We'll come back to that too,


  • but you mentioned the cutting of funding and the vouchers

    世界食糧計画による 助成や補助の削減について

  • from the World Food Programme.


  • That reflects the general underfunding of the organizations


  • working on these issues.


  • Now that the world seems to have woken up,


  • are you getting more funding and more support,


  • or it's still the same?


  • AG: We are getting more support.


  • I would say that we are coming close to the levels of last year.


  • We were much worse during the summer.


  • But that is clearly insufficient to address the needs of the people

    ですが 人々のニーズや 人々を支援している国々の

  • and address the needs of the countries


  • that are supporting the people.


  • And here we have a basic review of the criteria, the objectives,

    ここにきて必要とされている 開発協力の基準や目的 優先順位について

  • the priorities of development cooperation that is required.


  • For instance, Lebanon and Jordan are middle-income countries.

    例えば レバノンやヨルダンは中所得国です

  • Because they are middle-income countries,

    中所得国であるために 世界銀行からの

  • they cannot receive soft loans or grants from the World Bank.


  • Now, today this doesn't make any sense,

    今時 そんな理屈は通りません

  • because they are providing a global public good.


  • They have millions of refugees there,


  • and to be honest, they are pillars of stability in the region,

    正直 この2国は困難にもかかわらず

  • with all the difficulties they face,


  • and the first line of defense of our collective security.

    世界全体の安全保障の 第一線となってくれています

  • So it doesn't make sense

    なので この2国が

  • that these countries are not a first priority


  • in development cooperation policies.


  • And they are not.


  • And not only do the refugees live in very dramatic circumstances

    それらの国々では 不安定な状況下で難民が

  • inside those countries,


  • but the local communities themselves are suffering,


  • because salaries went down