思いやりに関する今後の研究への科学的な問いかけ (Scientific Questions for Future Research on Compassion)

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[ Music ]
>> Voiceover: Stanford University.
The Session Four has as its.
Has as its theme Exploring Scientific Questions
for Future Research on Compassion and Altruism.
So we're interested in this session not only to pick
up on perhaps some of the themes that we've already spoken about.
But we're really interested in focusing our attention
on the future ways in which we can ensure the growth
and enrichment of this field of research.
Looking at next steps, particular areas
that might be especially valuable.
We've already had a few indications of that,
especially in this last session.
We have three new guests, hardly guests in this case.
Each one of whom has much to contribute.
The first is James Doty, MD.
Director of the Center for Compassion
and Altruism Research and Education.
CCARE, who is doing all this good work.
He's at Stanford University, and Clinical Professor
of Neurosurgery at the Stanford University School of Medicine.
[ Applause ]
And we have Paul Ekman who is Professor of Psychology,
Emeritus, at the University of California in San Francisco.
And his research on facial expression
and body movement began already in 1954,
continues through a lifetime.
I hate to say the dates, but you're looking well.
His seminal approach to behavior launched.
Hard at work on a compendium I hear.
Dacher Keltner will not be with us this evening, this afternoon.
He has a family emergency.
But we are very fortunate that one of his students,
Emiliana Simon-Thomas, PhD, will be with us.
She's done post-doctoral research with Dacher Keltner
at the University of California,
Berkeley's Social Interaction Laboratory.
And has recently joined CCARE as a Senior Scientist working
on developing a comprehensive standard measure of compassion.
And collaborating on future compassion cultivation
training studies.
So welcome to all three of you.
[ Applause ]
There are going
to no presentations during this session.
It's entirely a free-flowing conversation concerning the
future, and some of the themes that have been announced
through the previous presentations and discussions
that we'd like to go deeper into.
But I'm going to give the floor first to Jim Doty.
>> Dr. Doty: Again, thank you all for your attention today.
And thank you again so much, Your Holiness
for being with us today.
>> Dr. Zajonc: Your mike needs to be louder.
>> Dr. Doty: How's that?
How's that?
Can you hear me?
>> Audience: Yes.
>> Dr. Doty: Can you hear me?
>> Audience: Yes!
>> Dr. Doty: Can you hear me?
>> Audience: Yes!
>> Dr. Doty: Thank you for being here today.
And thank you again, Your Holiness.
In this conversation we've had today, I know a lot
of information has been presented to you
that has spanned the fields of economics.
To the potential implications
of altering the brain utilizing alteration in genes and use
of different wavelengths of light potentially
to turn on and off genes.
To this compassion cultivation training program.
I think all of us would like potentially for you to sit here
and tell us what you think some of the important areas
that have been presented today, your thoughts on those.
And your thoughts on where this work could lead to.
Or perhaps your thoughts
on which directions we should go for the future.
[ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]
>> Dalai Lama: I think broadly this morning,
as I mentioned earlier, even for academic level.
[ Jinpa translating ]
I think modern science.
Modern science mainly comes from the West.
So traditionally in the West
of course the Judeo-Christian religion is
about the [inaudible] taking care about the mind.
So there because [inaudible] faith, does Creator, does God.
The real faith.
>> Jinpa: The foundation....
>> Dalai Lama: That also is an immense benefit to many people
without taking these complications are simply a
single-pointed faith towards God.
It provides inner peace, hope, like that.
Whereas in Asia, in India, mainly India, so different sort
of traditions develop within a country.
So the non-theistic, mainly, [inaudible] & Buddhism.
So it's bound to take care about the mind.
One's own mind is not sufficient to justice, to put faith.
So therefore, in order to tackle the mind you have
to know the mind more in detail.
So a thousand years some kind
of inner science already are developed.
And then through centuries many practitioners,
many scholars have worked on it.
So a lot of development there.
So in the West modern science background,
Judeo-Christian background.
So you see, not my sort of [Tibetan]....
>> Jinpa: Complex analysis of the mind.
>> Dalai Lama: Of city shaping our mind.
So now I think Western science is really now [Tibetan].
>> Jinpa: Reaching.
>> Dalai Lama: Reaching a high level or deeper level.
So I think it is really wonderful
that science is now becoming something
like complete external matters and the internal mind.
Because of both fields, because of the sufficient knowledge.
And this knowledge, if Buddha
or Jesus Christ is there, we can ask them.
But such person is not there,
so we have to carry the research work.
[ Dalai Lama laughs ]
So this research, or this [speaking Tibetan],
I think discussion on.
>> Jinpa: Exploration.
>> Dalai Lama: Exploration.
Of course these different research centers,
like Buddhist center or Hindu centers, also are important.
But mainly in the academic field.
>> Jinpa: Academic centers.
>> Dalai Lama: Academic centers.
That I right from the beginning I always think that's
very important.
So therefore, this program please carry continuously.
And usually I use it telling people in the material field,
in any case there's limitation
if you become a millionaire, a billionaire.
If you get, sorry, you got the 100 million.
A 100 million or 1000 million trillion, or 100 trillion,
1000 trillion, your greed is still not satisfied.
Want more, more, more.
So more anxiety, more jealousy, more suspicion.
So inner peace of mind will not get from external means.
And anyway, someone in the whole world is still discontented.
[Inaudible] en masse.
Then further other glasses [assumed spelling].
And anyway, your life hundred years.
So there's anywhere there is limitation.
Now internal matter the mind is concerned formless not depend
upon [inaudible] sort of thing, so it can develop infinite way.
So those fields which in any way limitation, better to content.
Those fields where no limitation that's not content,
but usually just the opposite.
About spiritual matter or mind, mental matter something
with the mind we're contented, so far.
If the matter is concerned, external matter....
Every year....
[ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]
Research, research, research....
And found some new intent.
So I am very, very happy, you see, like you
and these people really now opening in science world.
Yes, there is certain things which we not yet explore fully.
I think that's very good.
[ Applause ]
>> Dr. Zajonc: I think we might have a question
or two from Emiliana.
>> Emiliana: Yes.
So, Your Holiness, you've learned this morning that we
as a field have realized several methods for trying
to measure compassion, trying
to assess people's experience of compassion.
We use something called self-report.
How are you feeling compassion one to ten?
For you ten.
We look at behavior.
We see whether people give or share.
We look at heroic behavior, like Phil Zimbardo.
My esteemed colleague, Dacher Keltner,
has pioneered a technique of looking
at a cardiovascular response called vagal tone,
and looked at its relationship to compassion.
He's also looked at certain social circumstances
like socioeconomic status that relate to compassion.
We heard from Erika Rosenberg about certain beliefs
that are part of compassion, like a sense of common humanity.
A sense of similarity between yourself and others.
And finally we heard from Brian and Bill Harbaugh this morning,
Brian Knutson, about several patterns of brain activation
that are associated with reinforcing compassion,
with motivating compassion.
One of the missions of CCARE is to, in collaboration
with other centers that are focused on examining compassion,
is to develop a standard validated measurement
of compassion that can be made available to everyone.
So that all of our research can be understood comprehensively
and in an integrated fashion.
Do you have, Your Holiness, any recommendations for aspects
or phenomena that you think are important to the arising
and falling and carryover of the compassionate response
that you think we need to include in our measure?
[ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]
>> Dalai Lama: I don't.
I don't, unless I think I spent [inaudible] months,
months in laboratory.
Then while you are carrying some sort
of experiment I may develop some idea.
But otherwise I have nothing to say.
[ Audience laughing ]
>> Dr. Zajonc: I think you're probably invited
into the laboratory, you know.
>> Emiliana: We have a spot for you.
>> Dalai Lama: Huh?
>> Emiliana: We have a place for you to come and stay
in our laboratory to help us.
[ Dalai Lama laughing ]
>> Dr. Zajonc: Oh, perhaps you'd
like to make a comment or a question.
[ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]
>> Jinpa: His Holiness' point is
that unless he has the opportunity to sit
down with some of you and go through a detailed discussion
of what the specifics.
>> Dalai Lama: On experiment.
Experiment.
>> Jinpa: The experiments.
And what the, what are the kind of points being included as part
of the measurement, he wouldn't be able to just.
>> Emiliana: When we have our measure we'll arrange
that meeting.
[ Jinpa translating ]
>> Dr. Zajonc: Just a comment though.
Just a comment.
This is critically important,
because as this field is evolving, for it to mature
in any way we have to have measures that are validated,
consistent so that we can tell from experiment
to experiment what this means.
Because if every time we write an article we are using one
measure here, one measure there, how are we ever going
to have any consistency?
It's always comparing apples and oranges.
So my feeling is, and I think all of us,
is that one of the critical aspects of the work
that we're doing is actually creating this measure.
[ Applause ]
>> Unknown: Well, just a couple of points before I get
to what I wanted to say.
We've got to have a standard measure.
But scientists are very contentious people,
so it's not an easy matter even if you get a great measure
to convince everyone else that they should use your measure.
So you would have a better chance I believe
of developing an accepted standard measure
if it was developed by a team representing multiple
universities rather than one.
>> Dr. Ekman: Well, first of all.
[ Applause ]
That's an excellent point [inaudible] has actually got a
number of academic institutions.
And in fact all over the country and the world
who are actually signed onto this already.
So that was always the plan.
Because there are some parts of the country
where information only goes out.
It doesn't come in, if you know what I mean.
So we absolutely want this
so that there is buy-in from all parties.
Because if you're a part of this research from the start
and you have ownership,
and right from the beginning there is respect
for your opinion, which is to some extent all
about what we're talking of today.
Then it's much easier for all of us to work together.
[ Applause ]
Let me begin with what I was preparing to say.
First to thank Stanford University.
Actually I was on the staff here 45 years ago
in political science of all things.
But thank you, Stanford.
Thank you, CCARE.
Thank you my dear friend, the Dalai Lama.
What a privilege it's been to get to know you.
A life-changing privilege.
I'm so grateful.
And so is my wife and my children.
[ Audience laughs ]
>> Dr. Zajonc: And your colleagues.
>> Dr. Ekman: Well, you never care much about that.
I wanted to raise a couple of things
that I had not had a chance to talk to you about
and see what you think.
Brian described I think very well compassionate feelings.
As a feeling, the experience of someone else's suffering.
And that's all something when we want to,
we talk about opening the heart, we're opening the heart to that.
And Bill Herbaugh talked about...
he's not interested in the feeling stuff.
It's the action.
Show me the action.
Are you an economist?
Yes. Now we presume, and it's probably often the case,
that the feelings precede the action.
But I've become convinced from another, a number of examples
that I've examined that you can get compassionate action
without it being preceded by compassionate feelings.
So the first question I want to ask you,
is do you agree with that?
But before I get to that.
[ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]
What I would like to suggest is there are multiple paths
to compassion.
Developing compassionate feelings is one path,
but not the only path.
If we look at the Buddhist concept
of world view, that is another.
In Western terms we would say that's attitudes,
values and beliefs.
And that in itself without, and I'm a student of emotion,
take emotion out of the way.
You don't need it.
For this path it's your values, your beliefs
that cause you to act.
And the act is irresistible because that's what you believe
that you must do and should do, and that....
So do.... If that is the case, this is the last part
of this question, then it means that education,
like Linda Darling, offers us a route for that path.
Now I'm really a believer in multiple paths,
so it's not trying to belittle one path versus another.
But to saying do you think there are multiple paths?
And that some people can engage in a life
of compassion not preceded
by having gone the compassionate feeling route?
[ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]
>> Jinpa: Generally the Buddhist understanding does not
presuppose that in order to have compassion.
>> Dalai Lama: Conversely the compassion is something
like sort of a desire to work on suffering of others.
So now here are differences: the suffering,
there are three kinds of suffering.
Usually when we use the word of suffering we just refer
to the first kind of suffering.
So suffering will change, which is a worldly sort
of pleasure or happiness.
This also second level of suffering.
Then third suffering so long negative emotions,
or so long misconception there.
Sooner or later you will suffer.
So these are not on the suffering experience, feeling.
But rather ultimate source of suffering.
So concern to overcome these ultimate sources of suffering.
So the answer [inaudible].
>> Jinpa: So at that level
of compassion then feeling doesn't come in.
It's really more from an understanding and recognition
of the cause of suffering.
And based upon that, a wish for that person to be free
from suffering arises, and so there is no feeling route.
But His Holiness was earlier making the point
that when we even talk about empathy in the Buddhist sense,
it does not necessarily, you know, entail a kind
of emotional resonance.
That, you know, you are not expected
to experience what the other person is experiencing.
But the feeling route might include,
I mean that includes some kind of sense of distress
at the sight of others.
So this is an ordinary level of compassion,
where the compassion is focused,
directed to an evident acute suffering
that you are seeing in front of you.
Whereas, there can be other types of compassion
as he explained, which are more cultivated in the basis
of deep understanding of the causes
and conditions of suffering.
And on that basis
when compassion arises it's a more kind of reasoned product
and does not need to go through the feeling route.
>> Dr. Ekman: Good!
[ Dalai Lama speaking ]
>> Jinpa: So you were saying good is because it, you know,
seems to support your thesis.
>> Dr. Ekman: It supports people I have observed who are doing,
engaging in compassionate behavior.
And I can see from talking with them no evidence that they went
through a feeling route.
It's more an intellectual world.
World view is probably the best way.
>> Dalai Lama: Intellectual world view .
>> Dr. Ekman: Yes.
>> Jinpa: That's a good way of putting it.
>> Dr. Ekman: So let me take this a step further,
just one step further.
You said, when we were off stage,
that compassion is generalized, okay?
Now I think it's conceivable
that compassion can be a trait, a personality trait.
And if it is, where did it come from?
Are there some people who are born with a proclivity
to develop, all things being equal,
a compassionate personality?
You told me years ago, go talk to Richard Moore, you said.
He practices compassion.
I talk about it, is what you said.
I went to see Richard Moore who at 14 was shot
by a policeman and was blinded.
And Richard is total forgiveness.
He didn't have to work for it.
He was compassionate before he was shot.
That was his life.
And you ask Richard how could this be?
He said, It was my mother which.
But three siblings who had the same mother who all spoke
of her being equally loving, they hate this policeman, okay?
[ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]
They hate the policeman who shot Richard.
[ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]
So do you think it would be profitable for us
to investigate people who without training,
without any special preparation, are leading compassionate lives?
Do you think we could learn from them things that would be useful
to developing their clones, if it's another path?
[ Audience laughs ]
[ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]
[ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]
>> Jinpa: It's there could be some,
you know, special benefits.
But His Holiness says he doesn't know.
But he was wondering whether there could be some genetic
level explanation of these differences.
>> Dalai Lama: But of course from the Buddhist viewpoint
and also the many sort of religious traditions
which believe in rebirth, now that's theory now involved here.
That's out [outside] of scientific work.
[ Audience laughs and applauds ]
Dr. Ekman: That's off limits!
[ Dalai Lama laughs ]
>> Dr. Ekman: By the way, you raised the genetic.
That we should look at the family histories.
We should look at the backgrounds
of such people, because they exist.
They, not enough of them exist.
But they're not....
They're not as rare as a Mozart.
>> Dalai Lama: And I think cultural heritage,
culture atmosphere makes differences.
I think generally speaking Tibetan generally speaking more
compassionate, more peaceful, more gentle.
Even some Chinese who visited Tibet they'll also find that.
And of course some tourists also.
So I don't think any differences generally are
at the genetic level I don't think differences.
But that is mainly the generation to generation sort
of way of life of cultural heritage.
That also makes differences.
These do not necessarily come from genes, or genetic level.
Or not necessarily through training.
>> Jinpa: Training.
>> Dalai Lama: But also the way of life.
Also [inaudible] cultural.
>> Jinpa: Cultural atmosphere.
>> Dalai Lama: Like that.
>> Dr. Tsai: Paul, could I respond to that really quickly?
In Dacher's lab a couple
of his graduate students did a really clever study looking
at a variant of an oxytocin gene.
And oxytocin is a neuropeptide that's deeply involved
in maternal nurturing
and supporting breast feeding behaviors, things like that.
There was a significant difference
in this oxytocin gene variant in cooperative
and altruistic behavior as a function
of which variant the different groups possessed.
Where people who've had, were homogenous for AA
of this type were more altruistic.
People that were GG were less altruistic.
People who were AG were unpredictable.
And it seemed to be that there was a greater responsibility
of the environment and life experience in that regard.
And that was just on students again, college students.
>> Dr. Zajonc: Perhaps before we go any further we should thank
all the University undergraduates
who have been the guinea pigs for us along the way.
[ Audience laughs and applauds ]
[ Jinpa translating ]
>> Dr. Goldin: I think one of the interesting things
that has been found in regard to the study of happiness though is
that it does seem to be that people do have, if you will,
a thermometer which can be adjusted.
Now they may only be able to adjust it to a certain point,
and not able to do that whether there are any other methods used
to do that that they're sort of stuck at a max.
But I think key point is, and I believe it will be relevant
to compassion, is that probably no one
in this room except His Holiness has their thermometer
at the highest level.
Our challenge is to get each of our thermometers at least
to the highest level that we possibly can.
In regard actually to the comments that Paul was making,
it's actually interesting.
Because we talked about this cultivation of compassion.
We talk about, as he said himself
when he thanked His Holiness, he commented on my wife
and my child, thank you.
And I think this is an interesting point.
Because our tendency is we want to see the effect on the person.
I suggest that we should do work on examining the impact on those
around you, and I think
that would be a very interesting path to take.
[ Applause ]
[ Jinpa translating ]
What are your thoughts?
[ Audience laughs ]
[ Jinpa translating ]
[ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]
>> Jinpa: You know, with relation to talking
about measurements,
in the Buddhist text there are references
to signs, external signs.
[ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]
So this is in the context of a student seeking
for a qualified teacher.
And advice is given that you should not choose someone
on the basis of how impressive he looks,
or how high the throne he's sitting on is.
But rather whether or not he
or she possesses the necessary qualities
that you are seeking to cultivate.
And that needs to be done on the basis
of a sustained observation of the person.
On the basis of the way in which the person speaks.
The way in which the person carries himself,
the behavior, and so on.
So there is a saying that on the basis of external signs one can,
one needs to infer and the internal qualities.
>> Dalai Lama: But still you cannot measure a
hundred percent.
Almost [Tibetan].
>> Jinpa: Approximately.
>> Dalai Lama: Approximately we say we can judge the inner....
>> Jinpa: A quality.
>> Dalai Lama: Depth of experiences.
And of course knowledge,
more discussion we know the other's knowledge.
But then really experience [speaking Tibetan] long
period examine.
And particularly that person passing through difficult.
>> Jinpa: Challenges
>> Dalai Lama: Challenges sometimes is [speaking Tibetan].
>> Jinpa: And in some cases in fact more kind
of provocation might be helpful to provoke a person to put them
in challenging situations.
>> Dr. Zajonc: I thought were trying to get rid of anger.
[ Audience laughs ]
[ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]
>> Dalai Lama: So there's a story, and you may have heard.
[ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]
>> Jinpa: So there's a story
about a meditator meditating in a cave.
And someone walks by and asks, What are you doing?
And he says, I'm meditating.
And they said, What are you meditating on?
I'm meditating on patience, and so the other person says,
In that case go to hell!
And then the meditator immediately responds,
You go to hell!
[ Audience and Dalai Lama laughs ]
>> Dalai Lama: So without
that provocation we say looks very good meditator.
With provocation, then you see he shows his real nature,
so that's important.
[ Audience laughs and applauds ]
>> Dr. Zajonc: I think Paul you have some comments.
>> Dr. Ekman: Years ago, in Dharamsala
when you asked for....
I remember that you said, Is this just going to be good talk?
Or is something going to happen?
Are we going to do something to try
to change people's emotional laws?
And there, Anne Harrington who was at that meeting,
who you know well and who's on the board of Mind and Life.
I think she's still on the board of Mind and Life.
And this relates to what you said.
Anne said, because we talked about well, what are going
to measure to see whether the training we're going
to develop is going to be of benefit?
And this is relevant to getting a standardized set of measure
of the benefits of compassion training.
Anne said, If you don't measure and show
that it improves the relationships
with their children and their intimate partner,
it's worthless, okay?
Quite extreme.
[ Audience applauds ]
But I think really right on the money.
I shouldn't use a metaphor.
Right, exactly right.
That the important is we change how people deal with each other
in a way that people appreciate.
And that if we can't do that, then what are we doing with,
what does the compassion mean?
It should be.
But it's harder methodology.
It's an old social psychology observational methodology that's
used in marital research and not in much else.
But it really has a place here, and I hope it gets incorporated.
[ Jinpa translating ]
>> Dr. Zajonc: Emiliana, I think you have one more.
>> Emiliana: Yes.
So another thing I thought was important
to think about, Your Holiness.
Is when we have looked at all this evidence
about compassionate responding, and this relates
to what Paul was just talking about,
we've really heard biological evidence about the motivations
and incentives for being compassionate.
And there's been a big focus on the rewards system,
and the extent to which the warm glow or carryover
or blue light will make us more compassionate
or more pro-social.
Incredibly important work.
I'm also wondering what you think about the focusing,
or trying to shift the focus also towards the core caring
dimension of compassion.
The extent to which humans and many
of our predecessor species possess a basic nurturing urge.
A system, a biological system that supports our interest
in the well-being of conspecifics.
It's not something that receives that much attention
in the literature, and it's something
that I'd really love to see worked on.
I wonder what your thoughts are about that.
[ Jinpa translating and Dalai Lama responding ]
[ Silence ]
>> Dalai Lama: I think yesterday also I mentioned
on one occasion the distinction, the level of compassion
with mixture [Tibetan]?
>> Jinpa: Mixed with attachment.
>> Dalai Lama: Mixed with attachment.
That kind of compassion can [Tibetan] towards your friend,
people who.
>> Jinpa: Close to you.
>> Dalai Lama: Who are close or who are nice to you.
That is very much mixed with attachment.
So that kind of compassion is biased, limited compassion.
So that compassion actually obstacle
for unbiased compassion.
So unbiased compassion not mixed with attachment, detached,
can develop a sense of compassion.
That compassion reaches towards your enemy.
And that reach deep.
That is what extends an entire sentient being.
So that also I think.
Well, one time one scientist,
one Killian [assumed spelling] scientist,
physicist at one meeting he actually mentioned.
I mean expressed, he being as a scientist
or physicist he should not attach attachment towards his
own scientific field.
So when he mentioned that I also said oh, that's very important.
I am Buddhist, but I should not develop attachment
towards Buddhism.
Well, so here we say when I develop attachment,
then my mind becomes biased.
So with too much attachment with one's own religions,
then there is a tendency to disrespect other religions.
Your faith towards your own religions is not objective,
too much attachment.
So that's I think very important to make the distinction.
Genuine compassion and compassion
which biological factor and very much mixed with attachment,
this I think we must make the distinction.
So in the future some sort
of experimental research what differences at the brain level
to genuine compassion.
When a person who has some experience, then why is he
or she experiencing that unbiased compassion?
Or another person just kind of level
of compassion towards his or her family member.
That I think also was whorth some experimental research
on what's the differences in the brain.
So usually I have a joke and usually telling people
that t ear is a physical response,
the cause at the emotional level.
And the emotion is painful emotion, painful.
Some pain and very much a sad tear come.
Or joyous, very happy, again sometimes a tear come.
So this poor organ, this eye, no ability to distinction.
The cause level, big differences.
One overjoy, one very sad.
But the response from the body is saying so if this eye,
physical, quite sort of clever, and the tear comes due
to overjoys should come right eye or left eye?
[ Audience laughs ]
Then very sad things can come, then other side.
Then we can say all through physical expression we can check
the emotion.
So therefore, this scientist who tried to explain mind
through brain research, I do not believe.
To some extent, yes, certainly.
But I think at a deeper level I don't think.
Physical level.
Physical level very rough, coarse.
>> Jinpa: Coarse.
>> Dalai Lama: Coarse.
Mind, very subtle.
And within mind of course eye consciousness very, very coarse.
Is coarsely.
>> Jinpa: Coarse, yes.
Coarse level.
>> Dalai Lama: Coarse level, very much within the brain
and eye organs like that.
But then the mental sort of in the mind which comes.
Which comes follow.
>> Jinpa: Which follows after the sensory experience.
>> Dalai Lama: That's mind now.
That also is in many different levels,
again in the state mind and dream state mind.
Deep sleep, the mind there are many differences.
So I think one day I visit
and casually mention talk with David?
>> Jinpa: Richard Davidson.
>> Dalai Lama: Richard Davidson.
The movement of the brain cell very fast.
But slower than light.
Isn't it?
>> Jinpa: Speed.
>> Dalai Lama: Speed.
I think mind I think even faster than light.
So, really difficult.
>> Dr. Zajonc: Thank you Your Holiness.
[ Dalai Lama laughs ]
[ Audience applauds ]
We're coming to our last few minutes.
We have potentially three contributions,
two are scheduled.
But I'd like to begin by seeing if Your Holiness would
like to make any final comments.
Then I will follow with a short integration.
And then Jim will conclude the program.
Do you have anything that you would like to add as a final?
>> Dalai Lama: Nothing more.
[ Audience laughs and applauds ]
[ Dalai Lama laughs ]
Usually. Usually, you see, my nature is
such that whenever something felt here, just express.
No [inaudible] that, this portion I should state now.
This portion I should state later, no such plan.
[ Audience and Dalai Lama laugh ]
>> Dr. Zajonc: You said everything.
I hardly need to say anything more.
But I've been asked to just give a few minutes of a kind
of retrospect on what is we've, what it is we've been through.
Which has been something of a really great
and special nature I think for all of us here.
Especially for those of us of course who are on the stage
or in the living room, as you remember,
to have shared this time with you.
I love that question that you posed, Paul, you know.
Is something going to happen?
Any of us who have had the great privilege to be in dialogue
with Your Holiness over many years, a kind of camaraderie
and friendship as common seekers in the living room context.
But now it's clear that things are happening.
Places like CCARE, University of Wisconsin,
Richie Davidson's laboratory, the project at Emory.
And there are many other smaller initiatives that are picking
up on just this kind of development.
And most of them go back to your good example in talking with us.
Being open-minded in ways which really encouraged us to take
up these collaborations around questions of compassion,
attention, mental imagery.
A whole array of mental subjects.
What that has meant to me is that there's been a kind
of new marriage that's taken place.
You know, science and spirituality, or science
and the inner life, have been at odds
with one another over many years.
And it seems to me that your commitment
to empiricism, to the data.
Your commitment to science, your commitment to reason,
as well as to the values and aspirations of your culture
and tradition, have really set an example
for how science can also work together with these values.
So we are striving for, you could say, a reintegration
of the inner and the outer worlds, of the mental life
and the physical life, in ways that we have not had before.
And that this also holds up the possibility,
as we heard from Linda Darling-Hammond, the possibility
of education in a new way.
And education for children and also
for those college students we keep talking about,
which is more integrated as well.
Which doesn't only educate towards the material well-being
of those individuals, but also for their inner well-being.
That the heart as well as the brain is actually addressed
in a way which is given equal emphasis.
So that their own lives are filled with greater meaning,
purpose, and direction.
And that this could be one of the highest aspirations
of education to provide for our children
and for our young adults.
And I couldn't help but think
of that confidence you have in the mind.
The mind has infinite, unlimited potential.
That whenever we look at a young child or a college student
across the table from us,
we realize that this young mind has an infinite possibility.
It's so encouraging, so expansive.
I also think of your friend and colleague here, Thupten Jinpa,
who has quietly served you and all
of the work that you've done.
But here in Stanford has found a kind of home for his own work.
His work in developing a contemplative curriculum
that really helps in the development of compassion.
It is I think a gift from Tibet to the U.S. and to the world,
for which we thank you.
[ Applause ]
I also am really proud of the good scientists.
You know, the scientists who really apply themselves,
their energy, their enthusiasm, their technique.
All of that.
Even asking the hard questions.
You think you got a result,
examine it a second time, go still deeper.
You know, they also have joined
in this project with full enthusiasm.
And it's great to see the hard work
of talented scientists brought to bear on these great problems
and with great subtlety.
I think of Karl Deisseroth's response
to your question concerning anger.
Because it on the one hand posed,
it gave a scientific response.
A particular region of the brain.
Yes, we understand this.
But is it possible that anger is also righteous?
We have to be careful that it's not,
that we don't take away the motivation
for doing well by somebody else.
Or its use in the arts.
So the subtlety of analysis.
[ Jinpa translating ]
[ Silence ]
Finally, I noticed yesterday you kept waving bye-bye.
And I know we're all getting old.
But I wanted to remind you of a prayer
that I know has a special place
in your heart which goes like this.
So long as space remains, so long as sentient beings remain,
I will remain in order to help, in order to serve,
in order to make my own contribution.
So we hope that this prayer is fulfilled and you will remain
as long as space remains, as long as we,
the sentient being, remain.
But you also will remain and that.
>> Dalai Lama: I don't know, I'm realistic.
[ Everyone laughs ]
Of course, from the Buddhist viewpoint there's life
after life.
>> Dr. Zajonc: Yes, you're right.
I think you have a way.
>> Dalai Lama: Otherwise, you see, if I remain forever,
then the whole galaxy disappear and me,
just a simple person, remains here.
No use.
[ Audience laughs ]
>> Dr. Zajonc: But you know, I think we can enjoin,
we can join you in this, in this prayer
which is really a prayer of service, right?
A prayer which speaks to, which speaks to the possibility
of the human being to have compassion,
as you so beautifully described, not only for one's self
or for the individual across one's self.
But that that compassion can become generalized.
That it becomes one where we all join you in saying,
So long as space remains, so long as sentient being remains,
we, we will remain in order to help, in order to serve,
in order to make our own contributions.
So we join you in that prayer.
>> Dalai Lama: Thank you.
Thank you much.
Thank you.
[ Applause ]
>> Dr. Zajonc: Wait!
Wait! We're not.
>> Dalai Lama: What?
>> Dr. Zajonc: Hold on [inaudible].
>> Dalai Lama: Yes?
>> Dr. Doty: I just want to make a closing comment.
>> Dr. Zajonc: These final words from [inaudible]
to be here [inaudible].
>> Dr. Doty: You guys, you don't have to stay.
[ Audience laughs ]
[ Silence ]
I hope all of you have found this dialogue worthwhile.
I think you did.
[ Applause ]
[ Silence ]
Science and technology have the potential
to profoundly impact the human landscape.
Taking us to its deepest valleys of human suffering,
or to its highest peaks of human potential or transformation.
That which will stop us
from choosing the former is the cultivation of compassion.
The recognition that our family or tribe,
which our evolution to-date as a species has limited our view,
is not just our mother, father, aunt, uncle, sister or brother.
Our home is not just what we can see immediately around us.
Every human is part of one family.
Every part of earth is our home.
I believe that the journey of those of us at CCARE
and those scientists working in this field around the world,
have embarked upon a path that can take us to that far shore
where each of us recognizes that the other is our brother.
And that in fact, the world is his home
where there are no barriers that separate us.
But in fact, profound forces that bind us.
I hope the work which you have gotten but a glimpse
of today gives you a hint of that possibility.
And I believe now that we are at a tipping point.
Where the recognition that love and compassion,
as His Holiness says, are no longer luxuries
if our species is to survive, but necessities.
Your Holiness, I thank you for your inspiration to not just me
and everyone in this room and those watching on the internet.
But to the hundreds of millions of people around the world
who you have inspired to look at others and see themselves.
Thank you.
[ Applause ]
>> Dalai Lama: I think now to the kids.
[ Applause ]
A few of the kids, the main reason why we.
I don't since few of the kids why we gather mainly
for certain academic work.
But that also, you see, creates personal, genuine friendship.
So once we become close friends,
that friendship will remain till our death.
So I appreciate.
>> Dr. Doty: From one friend to another.
>> Dalai Lama: Thank you.
[ Applause ]
[ Dalai Lama laughs ]
[ Applause ]
>> Dr. Doty: May we work together through all lifetimes.
[ Applause ]
[ Dalai Lama inaudible ]
[ Silence ]
[ Dalai Lama laughs ]
>> Unknown: I'll see you in Australia.
>> Dalai Lama: Okay.
[ Applause ]
I have one question.
One question.
Why usually this, you're very colorful.
Why?
>> Unknown: Colors.
[ Dalai Lama laughs ]
[ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]
>> Jinpa: His Holiness is saying that if you were much young
that would be suitable.
[ Everyone laughs ]
>> Unknown: Age is in the mind.
[ Everyone laughs ]
[ Dalai Lama laughs ]
[ Applause ]
[ Silence ]
>> Dalai Lama: Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
[ Applause ]
[ Dalai Lama inaudible ]
[ Applause ]
[ Silence ]
>> Dalai Lama: Thank you.
>> Dr. Tsai: Thank you.
[ Applause ]
[ Silence ]
>> Dalai Lama: So thank you.
[ Applause ]
So thank you.
Thank you once more.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
[ Applause ]
>> Unknown: We will.
>> Dalai Lama: Take care.
Take care.
Thank you.
[ Applause ]
[ Silence ]
>> Voiceover: For more please visit us at stanford.edu.