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  • [ Music ]

  • >> Voiceover: Stanford University.

  • The Session Four has as its.

  • Has as its theme Exploring Scientific Questions

  • for Future Research on Compassion and Altruism.

  • So we're interested in this session not only to pick

  • up on perhaps some of the themes that we've already spoken about.

  • But we're really interested in focusing our attention

  • on the future ways in which we can ensure the growth

  • and enrichment of this field of research.

  • Looking at next steps, particular areas

  • that might be especially valuable.

  • We've already had a few indications of that,

  • especially in this last session.

  • We have three new guests, hardly guests in this case.

  • Each one of whom has much to contribute.

  • The first is James Doty, MD.

  • Director of the Center for Compassion

  • and Altruism Research and Education.

  • CCARE, who is doing all this good work.

  • He's at Stanford University, and Clinical Professor

  • of Neurosurgery at the Stanford University School of Medicine.

  • [ Applause ]

  • And we have Paul Ekman who is Professor of Psychology,

  • Emeritus, at the University of California in San Francisco.

  • And his research on facial expression

  • and body movement began already in 1954,

  • continues through a lifetime.

  • I hate to say the dates, but you're looking well.

  • His seminal approach to behavior launched.

  • Hard at work on a compendium I hear.

  • Dacher Keltner will not be with us this evening, this afternoon.

  • He has a family emergency.

  • But we are very fortunate that one of his students,

  • Emiliana Simon-Thomas, PhD, will be with us.

  • She's done post-doctoral research with Dacher Keltner

  • at the University of California,

  • Berkeley's Social Interaction Laboratory.

  • And has recently joined CCARE as a Senior Scientist working

  • on developing a comprehensive standard measure of compassion.

  • And collaborating on future compassion cultivation

  • training studies.

  • So welcome to all three of you.

  • [ Applause ]

  • There are going

  • to no presentations during this session.

  • It's entirely a free-flowing conversation concerning the

  • future, and some of the themes that have been announced

  • through the previous presentations and discussions

  • that we'd like to go deeper into.

  • But I'm going to give the floor first to Jim Doty.

  • >> Dr. Doty: Again, thank you all for your attention today.

  • And thank you again so much, Your Holiness

  • for being with us today.

  • >> Dr. Zajonc: Your mike needs to be louder.

  • >> Dr. Doty: How's that?

  • How's that?

  • Can you hear me?

  • >> Audience: Yes.

  • >> Dr. Doty: Can you hear me?

  • >> Audience: Yes!

  • >> Dr. Doty: Can you hear me?

  • >> Audience: Yes!

  • >> Dr. Doty: Thank you for being here today.

  • And thank you again, Your Holiness.

  • In this conversation we've had today, I know a lot

  • of information has been presented to you

  • that has spanned the fields of economics.

  • To the potential implications

  • of altering the brain utilizing alteration in genes and use

  • of different wavelengths of light potentially

  • to turn on and off genes.

  • To this compassion cultivation training program.

  • I think all of us would like potentially for you to sit here

  • and tell us what you think some of the important areas

  • that have been presented today, your thoughts on those.

  • And your thoughts on where this work could lead to.

  • Or perhaps your thoughts

  • on which directions we should go for the future.

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]

  • >> Dalai Lama: I think broadly this morning,

  • as I mentioned earlier, even for academic level.

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • I think modern science.

  • Modern science mainly comes from the West.

  • So traditionally in the West

  • of course the Judeo-Christian religion is

  • about the [inaudible] taking care about the mind.

  • So there because [inaudible] faith, does Creator, does God.

  • The real faith.

  • >> Jinpa: The foundation....

  • >> Dalai Lama: That also is an immense benefit to many people

  • without taking these complications are simply a

  • single-pointed faith towards God.

  • It provides inner peace, hope, like that.

  • Whereas in Asia, in India, mainly India, so different sort

  • of traditions develop within a country.

  • So the non-theistic, mainly, [inaudible] & Buddhism.

  • So it's bound to take care about the mind.

  • One's own mind is not sufficient to justice, to put faith.

  • So therefore, in order to tackle the mind you have

  • to know the mind more in detail.

  • So a thousand years some kind

  • of inner science already are developed.

  • And then through centuries many practitioners,

  • many scholars have worked on it.

  • So a lot of development there.

  • So in the West modern science background,

  • Judeo-Christian background.

  • So you see, not my sort of [Tibetan]....

  • >> Jinpa: Complex analysis of the mind.

  • >> Dalai Lama: Of city shaping our mind.

  • So now I think Western science is really now [Tibetan].

  • >> Jinpa: Reaching.

  • >> Dalai Lama: Reaching a high level or deeper level.

  • So I think it is really wonderful

  • that science is now becoming something

  • like complete external matters and the internal mind.

  • Because of both fields, because of the sufficient knowledge.

  • And this knowledge, if Buddha

  • or Jesus Christ is there, we can ask them.

  • But such person is not there,

  • so we have to carry the research work.

  • [ Dalai Lama laughs ]

  • So this research, or this [speaking Tibetan],

  • I think discussion on.

  • >> Jinpa: Exploration.

  • >> Dalai Lama: Exploration.

  • Of course these different research centers,

  • like Buddhist center or Hindu centers, also are important.

  • But mainly in the academic field.

  • >> Jinpa: Academic centers.

  • >> Dalai Lama: Academic centers.

  • That I right from the beginning I always think that's

  • very important.

  • So therefore, this program please carry continuously.

  • And usually I use it telling people in the material field,

  • in any case there's limitation

  • if you become a millionaire, a billionaire.

  • If you get, sorry, you got the 100 million.

  • A 100 million or 1000 million trillion, or 100 trillion,

  • 1000 trillion, your greed is still not satisfied.

  • Want more, more, more.

  • So more anxiety, more jealousy, more suspicion.

  • So inner peace of mind will not get from external means.

  • And anyway, someone in the whole world is still discontented.

  • [Inaudible] en masse.

  • Then further other glasses [assumed spelling].

  • And anyway, your life hundred years.

  • So there's anywhere there is limitation.

  • Now internal matter the mind is concerned formless not depend

  • upon [inaudible] sort of thing, so it can develop infinite way.

  • So those fields which in any way limitation, better to content.

  • Those fields where no limitation that's not content,

  • but usually just the opposite.

  • About spiritual matter or mind, mental matter something

  • with the mind we're contented, so far.

  • If the matter is concerned, external matter....

  • Every year....

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]

  • Research, research, research....

  • And found some new intent.

  • So I am very, very happy, you see, like you

  • and these people really now opening in science world.

  • Yes, there is certain things which we not yet explore fully.

  • I think that's very good.

  • [ Applause ]

  • >> Dr. Zajonc: I think we might have a question

  • or two from Emiliana.

  • >> Emiliana: Yes.

  • So, Your Holiness, you've learned this morning that we

  • as a field have realized several methods for trying

  • to measure compassion, trying

  • to assess people's experience of compassion.

  • We use something called self-report.

  • How are you feeling compassion one to ten?

  • For you ten.

  • We look at behavior.

  • We see whether people give or share.

  • We look at heroic behavior, like Phil Zimbardo.

  • My esteemed colleague, Dacher Keltner,

  • has pioneered a technique of looking

  • at a cardiovascular response called vagal tone,

  • and looked at its relationship to compassion.

  • He's also looked at certain social circumstances

  • like socioeconomic status that relate to compassion.

  • We heard from Erika Rosenberg about certain beliefs

  • that are part of compassion, like a sense of common humanity.

  • A sense of similarity between yourself and others.

  • And finally we heard from Brian and Bill Harbaugh this morning,

  • Brian Knutson, about several patterns of brain activation

  • that are associated with reinforcing compassion,

  • with motivating compassion.

  • One of the missions of CCARE is to, in collaboration

  • with other centers that are focused on examining compassion,

  • is to develop a standard validated measurement

  • of compassion that can be made available to everyone.

  • So that all of our research can be understood comprehensively

  • and in an integrated fashion.

  • Do you have, Your Holiness, any recommendations for aspects

  • or phenomena that you think are important to the arising

  • and falling and carryover of the compassionate response

  • that you think we need to include in our measure?

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]

  • >> Dalai Lama: I don't.

  • I don't, unless I think I spent [inaudible] months,

  • months in laboratory.

  • Then while you are carrying some sort

  • of experiment I may develop some idea.

  • But otherwise I have nothing to say.

  • [ Audience laughing ]

  • >> Dr. Zajonc: I think you're probably invited

  • into the laboratory, you know.

  • >> Emiliana: We have a spot for you.

  • >> Dalai Lama: Huh?

  • >> Emiliana: We have a place for you to come and stay

  • in our laboratory to help us.

  • [ Dalai Lama laughing ]

  • >> Dr. Zajonc: Oh, perhaps you'd

  • like to make a comment or a question.

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]

  • >> Jinpa: His Holiness' point is

  • that unless he has the opportunity to sit

  • down with some of you and go through a detailed discussion

  • of what the specifics.

  • >> Dalai Lama: On experiment.

  • Experiment.

  • >> Jinpa: The experiments.

  • And what the, what are the kind of points being included as part

  • of the measurement, he wouldn't be able to just.

  • >> Emiliana: When we have our measure we'll arrange

  • that meeting.

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • >> Dr. Zajonc: Just a comment though.

  • Just a comment.

  • This is critically important,

  • because as this field is evolving, for it to mature

  • in any way we have to have measures that are validated,

  • consistent so that we can tell from experiment

  • to experiment what this means.

  • Because if every time we write an article we are using one

  • measure here, one measure there, how are we ever going

  • to have any consistency?

  • It's always comparing apples and oranges.

  • So my feeling is, and I think all of us,

  • is that one of the critical aspects of the work

  • that we're doing is actually creating this measure.

  • [ Applause ]

  • >> Unknown: Well, just a couple of points before I get

  • to what I wanted to say.

  • We've got to have a standard measure.

  • But scientists are very contentious people,

  • so it's not an easy matter even if you get a great measure

  • to convince everyone else that they should use your measure.

  • So you would have a better chance I believe

  • of developing an accepted standard measure

  • if it was developed by a team representing multiple

  • universities rather than one.

  • >> Dr. Ekman: Well, first of all.

  • [ Applause ]

  • That's an excellent point [inaudible] has actually got a

  • number of academic institutions.

  • And in fact all over the country and the world

  • who are actually signed onto this already.

  • So that was always the plan.

  • Because there are some parts of the country

  • where information only goes out.

  • It doesn't come in, if you know what I mean.

  • So we absolutely want this

  • so that there is buy-in from all parties.

  • Because if you're a part of this research from the start

  • and you have ownership,

  • and right from the beginning there is respect

  • for your opinion, which is to some extent all

  • about what we're talking of today.

  • Then it's much easier for all of us to work together.

  • [ Applause ]

  • Let me begin with what I was preparing to say.

  • First to thank Stanford University.

  • Actually I was on the staff here 45 years ago

  • in political science of all things.

  • But thank you, Stanford.

  • Thank you, CCARE.

  • Thank you my dear friend, the Dalai Lama.

  • What a privilege it's been to get to know you.

  • A life-changing privilege.

  • I'm so grateful.

  • And so is my wife and my children.

  • [ Audience laughs ]

  • >> Dr. Zajonc: And your colleagues.

  • >> Dr. Ekman: Well, you never care much about that.

  • I wanted to raise a couple of things

  • that I had not had a chance to talk to you about

  • and see what you think.

  • Brian described I think very well compassionate feelings.

  • As a feeling, the experience of someone else's suffering.

  • And that's all something when we want to,

  • we talk about opening the heart, we're opening the heart to that.

  • And Bill Herbaugh talked about...

  • he's not interested in the feeling stuff.

  • It's the action.

  • Show me the action.

  • Are you an economist?

  • Yes. Now we presume, and it's probably often the case,

  • that the feelings precede the action.

  • But I've become convinced from another, a number of examples

  • that I've examined that you can get compassionate action

  • without it being preceded by compassionate feelings.

  • So the first question I want to ask you,

  • is do you agree with that?

  • But before I get to that.

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]

  • What I would like to suggest is there are multiple paths

  • to compassion.

  • Developing compassionate feelings is one path,

  • but not the only path.

  • If we look at the Buddhist concept

  • of world view, that is another.

  • In Western terms we would say that's attitudes,

  • values and beliefs.

  • And that in itself without, and I'm a student of emotion,

  • take emotion out of the way.

  • You don't need it.

  • For this path it's your values, your beliefs

  • that cause you to act.

  • And the act is irresistible because that's what you believe

  • that you must do and should do, and that....

  • So do.... If that is the case, this is the last part

  • of this question, then it means that education,

  • like Linda Darling, offers us a route for that path.

  • Now I'm really a believer in multiple paths,

  • so it's not trying to belittle one path versus another.

  • But to saying do you think there are multiple paths?

  • And that some people can engage in a life

  • of compassion not preceded

  • by having gone the compassionate feeling route?

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]

  • >> Jinpa: Generally the Buddhist understanding does not

  • presuppose that in order to have compassion.

  • >> Dalai Lama: Conversely the compassion is something

  • like sort of a desire to work on suffering of others.

  • So now here are differences: the suffering,

  • there are three kinds of suffering.

  • Usually when we use the word of suffering we just refer

  • to the first kind of suffering.

  • So suffering will change, which is a worldly sort

  • of pleasure or happiness.

  • This also second level of suffering.

  • Then third suffering so long negative emotions,

  • or so long misconception there.

  • Sooner or later you will suffer.

  • So these are not on the suffering experience, feeling.

  • But rather ultimate source of suffering.

  • So concern to overcome these ultimate sources of suffering.

  • So the answer [inaudible].

  • >> Jinpa: So at that level

  • of compassion then feeling doesn't come in.

  • It's really more from an understanding and recognition

  • of the cause of suffering.

  • And based upon that, a wish for that person to be free

  • from suffering arises, and so there is no feeling route.

  • But His Holiness was earlier making the point

  • that when we even talk about empathy in the Buddhist sense,

  • it does not necessarily, you know, entail a kind

  • of emotional resonance.

  • That, you know, you are not expected

  • to experience what the other person is experiencing.

  • But the feeling route might include,

  • I mean that includes some kind of sense of distress

  • at the sight of others.

  • So this is an ordinary level of compassion,

  • where the compassion is focused,

  • directed to an evident acute suffering

  • that you are seeing in front of you.

  • Whereas, there can be other types of compassion

  • as he explained, which are more cultivated in the basis

  • of deep understanding of the causes

  • and conditions of suffering.

  • And on that basis

  • when compassion arises it's a more kind of reasoned product

  • and does not need to go through the feeling route.

  • >> Dr. Ekman: Good!

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking ]

  • >> Jinpa: So you were saying good is because it, you know,

  • seems to support your thesis.

  • >> Dr. Ekman: It supports people I have observed who are doing,

  • engaging in compassionate behavior.

  • And I can see from talking with them no evidence that they went

  • through a feeling route.

  • It's more an intellectual world.

  • World view is probably the best way.

  • >> Dalai Lama: Intellectual world view .

  • >> Dr. Ekman: Yes.

  • >> Jinpa: That's a good way of putting it.

  • >> Dr. Ekman: So let me take this a step further,

  • just one step further.

  • You said, when we were off stage,

  • that compassion is generalized, okay?

  • Now I think it's conceivable

  • that compassion can be a trait, a personality trait.

  • And if it is, where did it come from?

  • Are there some people who are born with a proclivity

  • to develop, all things being equal,

  • a compassionate personality?

  • You told me years ago, go talk to Richard Moore, you said.

  • He practices compassion.

  • I talk about it, is what you said.

  • I went to see Richard Moore who at 14 was shot

  • by a policeman and was blinded.

  • And Richard is total forgiveness.

  • He didn't have to work for it.

  • He was compassionate before he was shot.

  • That was his life.

  • And you ask Richard how could this be?

  • He said, It was my mother which.

  • But three siblings who had the same mother who all spoke

  • of her being equally loving, they hate this policeman, okay?

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]

  • They hate the policeman who shot Richard.

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]

  • So do you think it would be profitable for us

  • to investigate people who without training,

  • without any special preparation, are leading compassionate lives?

  • Do you think we could learn from them things that would be useful

  • to developing their clones, if it's another path?

  • [ Audience laughs ]

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]

  • >> Jinpa: It's there could be some,

  • you know, special benefits.

  • But His Holiness says he doesn't know.

  • But he was wondering whether there could be some genetic

  • level explanation of these differences.

  • >> Dalai Lama: But of course from the Buddhist viewpoint

  • and also the many sort of religious traditions

  • which believe in rebirth, now that's theory now involved here.

  • That's out [outside] of scientific work.

  • [ Audience laughs and applauds ]

  • Dr. Ekman: That's off limits!

  • [ Dalai Lama laughs ]

  • >> Dr. Ekman: By the way, you raised the genetic.

  • That we should look at the family histories.

  • We should look at the backgrounds

  • of such people, because they exist.

  • They, not enough of them exist.

  • But they're not....

  • They're not as rare as a Mozart.

  • >> Dalai Lama: And I think cultural heritage,

  • culture atmosphere makes differences.

  • I think generally speaking Tibetan generally speaking more

  • compassionate, more peaceful, more gentle.

  • Even some Chinese who visited Tibet they'll also find that.

  • And of course some tourists also.

  • So I don't think any differences generally are

  • at the genetic level I don't think differences.

  • But that is mainly the generation to generation sort

  • of way of life of cultural heritage.

  • That also makes differences.

  • These do not necessarily come from genes, or genetic level.

  • Or not necessarily through training.

  • >> Jinpa: Training.

  • >> Dalai Lama: But also the way of life.

  • Also [inaudible] cultural.

  • >> Jinpa: Cultural atmosphere.

  • >> Dalai Lama: Like that.

  • >> Dr. Tsai: Paul, could I respond to that really quickly?

  • In Dacher's lab a couple

  • of his graduate students did a really clever study looking

  • at a variant of an oxytocin gene.

  • And oxytocin is a neuropeptide that's deeply involved

  • in maternal nurturing

  • and supporting breast feeding behaviors, things like that.

  • There was a significant difference

  • in this oxytocin gene variant in cooperative

  • and altruistic behavior as a function

  • of which variant the different groups possessed.

  • Where people who've had, were homogenous for AA

  • of this type were more altruistic.

  • People that were GG were less altruistic.

  • People who were AG were unpredictable.

  • And it seemed to be that there was a greater responsibility

  • of the environment and life experience in that regard.

  • And that was just on students again, college students.

  • >> Dr. Zajonc: Perhaps before we go any further we should thank

  • all the University undergraduates

  • who have been the guinea pigs for us along the way.

  • [ Audience laughs and applauds ]

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • >> Dr. Goldin: I think one of the interesting things

  • that has been found in regard to the study of happiness though is

  • that it does seem to be that people do have, if you will,

  • a thermometer which can be adjusted.

  • Now they may only be able to adjust it to a certain point,

  • and not able to do that whether there are any other methods used

  • to do that that they're sort of stuck at a max.

  • But I think key point is, and I believe it will be relevant

  • to compassion, is that probably no one

  • in this room except His Holiness has their thermometer

  • at the highest level.

  • Our challenge is to get each of our thermometers at least

  • to the highest level that we possibly can.

  • In regard actually to the comments that Paul was making,

  • it's actually interesting.

  • Because we talked about this cultivation of compassion.

  • We talk about, as he said himself

  • when he thanked His Holiness, he commented on my wife

  • and my child, thank you.

  • And I think this is an interesting point.

  • Because our tendency is we want to see the effect on the person.

  • I suggest that we should do work on examining the impact on those

  • around you, and I think

  • that would be a very interesting path to take.

  • [ Applause ]

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • What are your thoughts?

  • [ Audience laughs ]

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]

  • >> Jinpa: You know, with relation to talking

  • about measurements,

  • in the Buddhist text there are references

  • to signs, external signs.

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]

  • So this is in the context of a student seeking

  • for a qualified teacher.

  • And advice is given that you should not choose someone

  • on the basis of how impressive he looks,

  • or how high the throne he's sitting on is.

  • But rather whether or not he

  • or she possesses the necessary qualities

  • that you are seeking to cultivate.

  • And that needs to be done on the basis

  • of a sustained observation of the person.

  • On the basis of the way in which the person speaks.

  • The way in which the person carries himself,

  • the behavior, and so on.

  • So there is a saying that on the basis of external signs one can,

  • one needs to infer and the internal qualities.

  • >> Dalai Lama: But still you cannot measure a

  • hundred percent.

  • Almost [Tibetan].

  • >> Jinpa: Approximately.

  • >> Dalai Lama: Approximately we say we can judge the inner....

  • >> Jinpa: A quality.

  • >> Dalai Lama: Depth of experiences.

  • And of course knowledge,

  • more discussion we know the other's knowledge.

  • But then really experience [speaking Tibetan] long

  • period examine.

  • And particularly that person passing through difficult.

  • >> Jinpa: Challenges

  • >> Dalai Lama: Challenges sometimes is [speaking Tibetan].

  • >> Jinpa: And in some cases in fact more kind

  • of provocation might be helpful to provoke a person to put them

  • in challenging situations.

  • >> Dr. Zajonc: I thought were trying to get rid of anger.

  • [ Audience laughs ]

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]

  • >> Dalai Lama: So there's a story, and you may have heard.

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]

  • >> Jinpa: So there's a story

  • about a meditator meditating in a cave.

  • And someone walks by and asks, What are you doing?

  • And he says, I'm meditating.

  • And they said, What are you meditating on?

  • I'm meditating on patience, and so the other person says,

  • In that case go to hell!

  • And then the meditator immediately responds,

  • You go to hell!

  • [ Audience and Dalai Lama laughs ]

  • >> Dalai Lama: So without

  • that provocation we say looks very good meditator.

  • With provocation, then you see he shows his real nature,

  • so that's important.

  • [ Audience laughs and applauds ]

  • >> Dr. Zajonc: I think Paul you have some comments.

  • >> Dr. Ekman: Years ago, in Dharamsala

  • when you asked for....

  • I remember that you said, Is this just going to be good talk?

  • Or is something going to happen?

  • Are we going to do something to try

  • to change people's emotional laws?

  • And there, Anne Harrington who was at that meeting,

  • who you know well and who's on the board of Mind and Life.

  • I think she's still on the board of Mind and Life.

  • And this relates to what you said.

  • Anne said, because we talked about well, what are going

  • to measure to see whether the training we're going

  • to develop is going to be of benefit?

  • And this is relevant to getting a standardized set of measure

  • of the benefits of compassion training.

  • Anne said, If you don't measure and show

  • that it improves the relationships

  • with their children and their intimate partner,

  • it's worthless, okay?

  • Quite extreme.

  • [ Audience applauds ]

  • But I think really right on the money.

  • I shouldn't use a metaphor.

  • Right, exactly right.

  • That the important is we change how people deal with each other

  • in a way that people appreciate.

  • And that if we can't do that, then what are we doing with,

  • what does the compassion mean?

  • It should be.

  • But it's harder methodology.

  • It's an old social psychology observational methodology that's

  • used in marital research and not in much else.

  • But it really has a place here, and I hope it gets incorporated.

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • >> Dr. Zajonc: Emiliana, I think you have one more.

  • >> Emiliana: Yes.

  • So another thing I thought was important

  • to think about, Your Holiness.

  • Is when we have looked at all this evidence

  • about compassionate responding, and this relates

  • to what Paul was just talking about,

  • we've really heard biological evidence about the motivations

  • and incentives for being compassionate.

  • And there's been a big focus on the rewards system,

  • and the extent to which the warm glow or carryover

  • or blue light will make us more compassionate

  • or more pro-social.

  • Incredibly important work.

  • I'm also wondering what you think about the focusing,

  • or trying to shift the focus also towards the core caring

  • dimension of compassion.

  • The extent to which humans and many

  • of our predecessor species possess a basic nurturing urge.

  • A system, a biological system that supports our interest

  • in the well-being of conspecifics.

  • It's not something that receives that much attention

  • in the literature, and it's something

  • that I'd really love to see worked on.

  • I wonder what your thoughts are about that.

  • [ Jinpa translating and Dalai Lama responding ]

  • [ Silence ]

  • >> Dalai Lama: I think yesterday also I mentioned

  • on one occasion the distinction, the level of compassion

  • with mixture [Tibetan]?

  • >> Jinpa: Mixed with attachment.

  • >> Dalai Lama: Mixed with attachment.

  • That kind of compassion can [Tibetan] towards your friend,

  • people who.

  • >> Jinpa: Close to you.

  • >> Dalai Lama: Who are close or who are nice to you.

  • That is very much mixed with attachment.

  • So that kind of compassion is biased, limited compassion.

  • So that compassion actually obstacle

  • for unbiased compassion.

  • So unbiased compassion not mixed with attachment, detached,

  • can develop a sense of compassion.

  • That compassion reaches towards your enemy.

  • And that reach deep.

  • That is what extends an entire sentient being.

  • So that also I think.

  • Well, one time one scientist,

  • one Killian [assumed spelling] scientist,

  • physicist at one meeting he actually mentioned.

  • I mean expressed, he being as a scientist

  • or physicist he should not attach attachment towards his

  • own scientific field.

  • So when he mentioned that I also said oh, that's very important.

  • I am Buddhist, but I should not develop attachment

  • towards Buddhism.

  • Well, so here we say when I develop attachment,

  • then my mind becomes biased.

  • So with too much attachment with one's own religions,

  • then there is a tendency to disrespect other religions.

  • Your faith towards your own religions is not objective,

  • too much attachment.

  • So that's I think very important to make the distinction.

  • Genuine compassion and compassion

  • which biological factor and very much mixed with attachment,

  • this I think we must make the distinction.

  • So in the future some sort

  • of experimental research what differences at the brain level

  • to genuine compassion.

  • When a person who has some experience, then why is he

  • or she experiencing that unbiased compassion?

  • Or another person just kind of level

  • of compassion towards his or her family member.

  • That I think also was whorth some experimental research

  • on what's the differences in the brain.

  • So usually I have a joke and usually telling people

  • that t ear is a physical response,

  • the cause at the emotional level.

  • And the emotion is painful emotion, painful.

  • Some pain and very much a sad tear come.

  • Or joyous, very happy, again sometimes a tear come.

  • So this poor organ, this eye, no ability to distinction.

  • The cause level, big differences.

  • One overjoy, one very sad.

  • But the response from the body is saying so if this eye,

  • physical, quite sort of clever, and the tear comes due

  • to overjoys should come right eye or left eye?

  • [ Audience laughs ]

  • Then very sad things can come, then other side.

  • Then we can say all through physical expression we can check

  • the emotion.

  • So therefore, this scientist who tried to explain mind

  • through brain research, I do not believe.

  • To some extent, yes, certainly.

  • But I think at a deeper level I don't think.

  • Physical level.

  • Physical level very rough, coarse.

  • >> Jinpa: Coarse.

  • >> Dalai Lama: Coarse.

  • Mind, very subtle.

  • And within mind of course eye consciousness very, very coarse.

  • Is coarsely.

  • >> Jinpa: Coarse, yes.

  • Coarse level.

  • >> Dalai Lama: Coarse level, very much within the brain

  • and eye organs like that.

  • But then the mental sort of in the mind which comes.

  • Which comes follow.

  • >> Jinpa: Which follows after the sensory experience.

  • >> Dalai Lama: That's mind now.

  • That also is in many different levels,

  • again in the state mind and dream state mind.

  • Deep sleep, the mind there are many differences.

  • So I think one day I visit

  • and casually mention talk with David?

  • >> Jinpa: Richard Davidson.

  • >> Dalai Lama: Richard Davidson.

  • The movement of the brain cell very fast.

  • But slower than light.

  • Isn't it?

  • >> Jinpa: Speed.

  • >> Dalai Lama: Speed.

  • I think mind I think even faster than light.

  • So, really difficult.

  • >> Dr. Zajonc: Thank you Your Holiness.

  • [ Dalai Lama laughs ]

  • [ Audience applauds ]

  • We're coming to our last few minutes.

  • We have potentially three contributions,

  • two are scheduled.

  • But I'd like to begin by seeing if Your Holiness would

  • like to make any final comments.

  • Then I will follow with a short integration.

  • And then Jim will conclude the program.

  • Do you have anything that you would like to add as a final?

  • >> Dalai Lama: Nothing more.

  • [ Audience laughs and applauds ]

  • [ Dalai Lama laughs ]

  • Usually. Usually, you see, my nature is

  • such that whenever something felt here, just express.

  • No [inaudible] that, this portion I should state now.

  • This portion I should state later, no such plan.

  • [ Audience and Dalai Lama laugh ]

  • >> Dr. Zajonc: You said everything.

  • I hardly need to say anything more.

  • But I've been asked to just give a few minutes of a kind

  • of retrospect on what is we've, what it is we've been through.

  • Which has been something of a really great

  • and special nature I think for all of us here.

  • Especially for those of us of course who are on the stage

  • or in the living room, as you remember,

  • to have shared this time with you.

  • I love that question that you posed, Paul, you know.

  • Is something going to happen?

  • Any of us who have had the great privilege to be in dialogue

  • with Your Holiness over many years, a kind of camaraderie

  • and friendship as common seekers in the living room context.

  • But now it's clear that things are happening.

  • Places like CCARE, University of Wisconsin,

  • Richie Davidson's laboratory, the project at Emory.

  • And there are many other smaller initiatives that are picking

  • up on just this kind of development.

  • And most of them go back to your good example in talking with us.

  • Being open-minded in ways which really encouraged us to take

  • up these collaborations around questions of compassion,

  • attention, mental imagery.

  • A whole array of mental subjects.

  • What that has meant to me is that there's been a kind

  • of new marriage that's taken place.

  • You know, science and spirituality, or science

  • and the inner life, have been at odds

  • with one another over many years.

  • And it seems to me that your commitment

  • to empiricism, to the data.

  • Your commitment to science, your commitment to reason,

  • as well as to the values and aspirations of your culture

  • and tradition, have really set an example

  • for how science can also work together with these values.

  • So we are striving for, you could say, a reintegration

  • of the inner and the outer worlds, of the mental life

  • and the physical life, in ways that we have not had before.

  • And that this also holds up the possibility,

  • as we heard from Linda Darling-Hammond, the possibility

  • of education in a new way.

  • And education for children and also

  • for those college students we keep talking about,

  • which is more integrated as well.

  • Which doesn't only educate towards the material well-being

  • of those individuals, but also for their inner well-being.

  • That the heart as well as the brain is actually addressed

  • in a way which is given equal emphasis.

  • So that their own lives are filled with greater meaning,

  • purpose, and direction.

  • And that this could be one of the highest aspirations

  • of education to provide for our children

  • and for our young adults.

  • And I couldn't help but think

  • of that confidence you have in the mind.

  • The mind has infinite, unlimited potential.

  • That whenever we look at a young child or a college student

  • across the table from us,

  • we realize that this young mind has an infinite possibility.

  • It's so encouraging, so expansive.

  • I also think of your friend and colleague here, Thupten Jinpa,

  • who has quietly served you and all

  • of the work that you've done.

  • But here in Stanford has found a kind of home for his own work.

  • His work in developing a contemplative curriculum

  • that really helps in the development of compassion.

  • It is I think a gift from Tibet to the U.S. and to the world,

  • for which we thank you.

  • [ Applause ]

  • I also am really proud of the good scientists.

  • You know, the scientists who really apply themselves,

  • their energy, their enthusiasm, their technique.

  • All of that.

  • Even asking the hard questions.

  • You think you got a result,

  • examine it a second time, go still deeper.

  • You know, they also have joined

  • in this project with full enthusiasm.

  • And it's great to see the hard work

  • of talented scientists brought to bear on these great problems

  • and with great subtlety.

  • I think of Karl Deisseroth's response

  • to your question concerning anger.

  • Because it on the one hand posed,

  • it gave a scientific response.

  • A particular region of the brain.

  • Yes, we understand this.

  • But is it possible that anger is also righteous?

  • We have to be careful that it's not,

  • that we don't take away the motivation

  • for doing well by somebody else.

  • Or its use in the arts.

  • So the subtlety of analysis.

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • [ Silence ]

  • Finally, I noticed yesterday you kept waving bye-bye.

  • And I know we're all getting old.

  • But I wanted to remind you of a prayer

  • that I know has a special place

  • in your heart which goes like this.

  • So long as space remains, so long as sentient beings remain,

  • I will remain in order to help, in order to serve,

  • in order to make my own contribution.

  • So we hope that this prayer is fulfilled and you will remain

  • as long as space remains, as long as we,

  • the sentient being, remain.

  • But you also will remain and that.

  • >> Dalai Lama: I don't know, I'm realistic.

  • [ Everyone laughs ]

  • Of course, from the Buddhist viewpoint there's life

  • after life.

  • >> Dr. Zajonc: Yes, you're right.

  • I think you have a way.

  • >> Dalai Lama: Otherwise, you see, if I remain forever,

  • then the whole galaxy disappear and me,

  • just a simple person, remains here.

  • No use.

  • [ Audience laughs ]

  • >> Dr. Zajonc: But you know, I think we can enjoin,

  • we can join you in this, in this prayer

  • which is really a prayer of service, right?

  • A prayer which speaks to, which speaks to the possibility

  • of the human being to have compassion,

  • as you so beautifully described, not only for one's self

  • or for the individual across one's self.

  • But that that compassion can become generalized.

  • That it becomes one where we all join you in saying,

  • So long as space remains, so long as sentient being remains,

  • we, we will remain in order to help, in order to serve,

  • in order to make our own contributions.

  • So we join you in that prayer.

  • >> Dalai Lama: Thank you.

  • Thank you much.

  • Thank you.

  • [ Applause ]

  • >> Dr. Zajonc: Wait!

  • Wait! We're not.

  • >> Dalai Lama: What?

  • >> Dr. Zajonc: Hold on [inaudible].

  • >> Dalai Lama: Yes?

  • >> Dr. Doty: I just want to make a closing comment.

  • >> Dr. Zajonc: These final words from [inaudible]

  • to be here [inaudible].

  • >> Dr. Doty: You guys, you don't have to stay.

  • [ Audience laughs ]

  • [ Silence ]

  • I hope all of you have found this dialogue worthwhile.

  • I think you did.

  • [ Applause ]

  • [ Silence ]

  • Science and technology have the potential

  • to profoundly impact the human landscape.

  • Taking us to its deepest valleys of human suffering,

  • or to its highest peaks of human potential or transformation.

  • That which will stop us

  • from choosing the former is the cultivation of compassion.

  • The recognition that our family or tribe,

  • which our evolution to-date as a species has limited our view,

  • is not just our mother, father, aunt, uncle, sister or brother.

  • Our home is not just what we can see immediately around us.

  • Every human is part of one family.

  • Every part of earth is our home.

  • I believe that the journey of those of us at CCARE

  • and those scientists working in this field around the world,

  • have embarked upon a path that can take us to that far shore

  • where each of us recognizes that the other is our brother.

  • And that in fact, the world is his home

  • where there are no barriers that separate us.

  • But in fact, profound forces that bind us.

  • I hope the work which you have gotten but a glimpse

  • of today gives you a hint of that possibility.

  • And I believe now that we are at a tipping point.

  • Where the recognition that love and compassion,

  • as His Holiness says, are no longer luxuries

  • if our species is to survive, but necessities.

  • Your Holiness, I thank you for your inspiration to not just me

  • and everyone in this room and those watching on the internet.

  • But to the hundreds of millions of people around the world

  • who you have inspired to look at others and see themselves.

  • Thank you.

  • [ Applause ]

  • >> Dalai Lama: I think now to the kids.

  • [ Applause ]

  • A few of the kids, the main reason why we.

  • I don't since few of the kids why we gather mainly

  • for certain academic work.

  • But that also, you see, creates personal, genuine friendship.

  • So once we become close friends,

  • that friendship will remain till our death.

  • So I appreciate.

  • >> Dr. Doty: From one friend to another.

  • >> Dalai Lama: Thank you.

  • [ Applause ]

  • [ Dalai Lama laughs ]

  • [ Applause ]

  • >> Dr. Doty: May we work together through all lifetimes.

  • [ Applause ]

  • [ Dalai Lama inaudible ]

  • [ Silence ]

  • [ Dalai Lama laughs ]

  • >> Unknown: I'll see you in Australia.

  • >> Dalai Lama: Okay.

  • [ Applause ]

  • I have one question.

  • One question.

  • Why usually this, you're very colorful.

  • Why?

  • >> Unknown: Colors.

  • [ Dalai Lama laughs ]

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]

  • >> Jinpa: His Holiness is saying that if you were much young

  • that would be suitable.

  • [ Everyone laughs ]

  • >> Unknown: Age is in the mind.

  • [ Everyone laughs ]

  • [ Dalai Lama laughs ]

  • [ Applause ]

  • [ Silence ]

  • >> Dalai Lama: Thank you.

  • Thank you.

  • Thank you.

  • [ Applause ]

  • [ Dalai Lama inaudible ]

  • [ Applause ]

  • [ Silence ]

  • >> Dalai Lama: Thank you.

  • >> Dr. Tsai: Thank you.

  • [ Applause ]

  • [ Silence ]

  • >> Dalai Lama: So thank you.

  • [ Applause ]

  • So thank you.

  • Thank you once more.

  • Thank you.

  • Thank you.

  • Thank you.

  • Thank you.

  • [ Applause ]

  • >> Unknown: We will.

  • >> Dalai Lama: Take care.

  • Take care.

  • Thank you.

  • [ Applause ]

  • [ Silence ]

  • >> Voiceover: For more please visit us at stanford.edu.

[ Music ]

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思いやりに関する今後の研究への科学的な問いかけ (Scientific Questions for Future Research on Compassion)

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    李承 に公開 2021 年 01 月 14 日
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