Name: アメリカの大学はトランプを生き延びられるか？| アメリカの大学はトランプに勝てるのか？ (Will American colleges survive Trump? | The Gray Area)
Uploaded: 2025-07-21T17:20:13.000Z
Duration: 52 min 27 s
Description: VoiceTubeの動画で発音を聞きながら英語表現を覚えよう！学べる英語：

Hey, I'm Sean host of the gray area for the show this week.

今週の司会はグレーゾーンのショーンだ。

様態の副詞

I talked to Michael Roth He's the president of Wesleyan University and the author of a bunch of great books about College we talked about the state of the American University why it's under attack And what he thinks college is actually for in this age.

ウェズリアン大学の学長であり、大学に関する素晴らしい本の著者でもあるマイケル・ロスに、アメリカの大学の現状と、なぜ大学が攻撃を受けているのか、そしてこの時代において大学が実際に何のためにあるのかについて話を聞いた。

I hope you enjoy it Michael Roth welcome to the show glad to be here I have heard you say that being a university president is the best job in the world.

マイケル・ロス、ようこそお越しくださいました。学長は世界最高の仕事だとおっしゃっていますね。

I Got to say man From where I sit it sure doesn't look like the best job in the world right now.

僕の立場から言わせてもらえば、今は世界最高の仕事には見えないよ。

Is this still your official Position it is my position both officially and unofficially People presidents do a lot of whining about how hard it is but we're very well paid as most people know because it's public and I get to be around lots of interesting young people Scholars researchers teachers So, of course there are Challenges, especially now the federal government has stepped into the breach to provide Extraordinary challenges, but despite all the protests of how hard it is a woe is me that you hear from from presidents I I think it's a it's a very cool job I mean, I'm working now talking to you as part of my job, you know, I go to a football game.

これは今でもあなたの公式な立場ですか？公式にも非公式にも私の立場です。社長たちは大変だと愚痴をこぼしますが、ほとんどの人が知っているように、私たちはとても高い給料をもらっています、特に今は、連邦政府が特別な課題を提供するために介入している。しかし、学長たちから耳にするような、大変だ、かわいそうだという抗議にもかかわらず、私は、とてもクールな仕事だと思う。

I'm working Lucky you you get to talk to me.

Yeah higher ed as you know is In a pretty tough place at the moment for a variety of reasons that we will get into You have been out there as much as any university president maybe more than any other defending universities you were Just at a conference in fact and you said very bluntly That the federal government and I'm quoting the federal government is trying to destroy civil society By undermining the legitimacy of colleges and universities.

ええ、ご存知のように高等教育は、これから説明するようなさまざまな理由で、現在かなり厳しい状況にあります。あなたは、他のどの大学の学長よりも、もしかしたら他のどの学長よりも、大学を擁護しているかもしれません。

What do you mean that help people understand?

人々の理解を助けるとはどういう意味ですか？

今、実際に何が起きているのか？

Well, I guess I should start with what what did I mean by civil society and I I see and I'm not alone in this the march of authoritarianism Often characterized by the effort to erase what philosophers or political theorists have called intermediary institutions Be they churches or corporations?

哲学者や政治理論家が仲介機関と呼んできたもの（教会であれ企業であれ）を消し去ろうとする努力によって、権威主義の進撃はしばしば特徴づけられる。

Schools universities entertainment we would say these days Parts of the society that have Legitimacy independent of the government's ideology or power and When you have an authoritarian or would-be authoritarian one of the things they often do maybe always do is Try to either erase those independent sources of legitimacy or as the Nazis say coordinate them, you know, glag shaltum Somehow coordinate all of them in the direction that the leader wants to go in and so I think it's it's extraordinarily clear that the Trump administration is hell-bent on destroying civil society Understood as that arena of our culture and our polity that has sources of legitimacy independent of the ideology of the person in the White House and You see that in the the attack on law firms You see it in the attack on the press I mean, it's it what enormous success of this has been that we got used to that kind of stuff and The war on universities is similar to that, you know, they're not really going after universities that have egregious issues of civil rights violations They're going after the high profile high legitimacy Institutions like Harvard like UVA like the other Ivy League schools with the exception of Dartmouth and and they're doing that because these schools have They have a claim on our allegiance or respect that is not founded in the ideology of Those currently in the White House when you say destroying what do you actually mean?

権威主義者や権威主義者になりそうな人たちがよくやることのひとつは、そうした独立した正統性の源泉を消し去ろうとするか、ナチスが言うようにそれらを調整しようとすることだ、だから、トランプ政権が市民社会の破壊に躍起になっているのは、極めて明らかだと思う。ホワイトハウスにいる人物のイデオロギーとは独立した正統性の源泉を持つ、私たちの文化や政治の場として理解されている、大学への攻撃もそれに似ている、公民権侵害という深刻な問題を抱えた大学を狙うのではなく、ハーバード大学やUVA、ダートマス大学を除く他のアイビーリーグ

I mean, what is the administration actually doing to?

つまり、政権は実際に何をしているのか、ということだ。

stifle or Censor or otherwise disrupt the mission and the independence of Universities across the country.

全国の大学の使命と独立性を抑圧し、検閲し、あるいは妨害する。

Well, they they start with easy thing, right like Trans women athletes.

まあ、トランス女性アスリートのように、簡単なことから始めるんだ。

I think there are 12 in the country in bars NCA varsity sports And that that's that's it.

バーNCAのバーサタイルスポーツは全国で12あると思う。

That's a winning issue for a variety of reasons And so they the White House the White House is going to determine who plays Volleyball Okay, and then they're going to determine how to teach Mideast or Near Eastern Studies Okay They're going to say if you don't teach Near Eastern Studies the way we want you to with appropriate respect for Israel.

ホワイトハウスは、誰がバレーボールをやるかを決め、中東や近東研究をどう教えるかを決める。

Let's say Then you're not going to get money for Alzheimer's research Now again, okay, it's not Harvard But what happens is that everybody in Higher education Starts hedging their bets that is they start moving away from anything that might offend Those in the White House and those beholden to people in the White House And so you have this slide from the university as fostering an oppositional culture Which it has in the United States for a long time at least since the Second World War Towards the universities as Institutions in which people with money power Diplomas and legitimacy that they start trying to anticipate what they should say to not annoy or even to please the President and his friends and that to me is destroying higher education just like it would be destroying journalism If the administration was able to punish Broadcast journalists for editing interviews Make it just impossible to edit an interview without pissing off the president That then you're going to destroy journalism not Ted not in one fell swoop But the news this morning at Paramount has decided to what's in 16 million dollars to settle What everyone knows is a bug everyone knows is a bogus case.

例えば、アルツハイマーの研究費が出ないとしよう、ハーバードではないが、何が起こるかというと、高等教育に携わるすべての人が、ホワイトハウスの人々やホワイトハウスの人々の意に反するようなことから遠ざかり始めるということだ。もし、政権がインタビューを編集した放送ジャーナリストを罰することができたとしたら、大統領を怒らせることなくインタビューを編集することは不可能になる。

It'll mean the journalists just move closer to those in power and that to me will Destroy the independence of this sector and I think that's the point I don't think President Trump really cares what kind of Alzheimer's research is being done at Harvard But he wants to make sure that People at Harvard and then everyone who doesn't have the resources that Harvard has to fight Everyone else lines up and I think that's why you don't see a lot of opposition from colleges universities right now Because everyone has already started lining up Well, you mentioned UVA and I wanted to ask about that because it's it's in the news and for people who don't know the president of UVA Recently resigned or shouldn't say resigned he was Forced out by the Justice Department as a condition to I guess settle the civil rights investigation into the school's diversity or DEI program However, however, you want to put it.

それはジャーナリストが権力者に近づくことを意味し、私にとってはこの分野の独立性を破壊することになります。トランプ大統領はハーバード大学でどのようなアルツハイマー病研究が行われているかは気にしていないと思いますが、彼はハーバード大学の人々、そしてハーバード大学が持っているような戦力を持たないすべての人々が戦うようにしたいのです、UVAのことをおっしゃいましたが、それについてお聞きしたかったのです。UVAのニュースをご存じない方のために説明しますと、最近UVAの学長が辞任しました。辞任と言うべきではないでしょ

I assume you you are in a you're the leader of a university president signal group chat What are your colleagues saying about this How would you characterize what went down there and do you see it as Pretending what might be coming else I do.

あなたは大学の学長信号グループのリーダーだと思いますが、あなたの同僚はこの件についてどのように言っていますか？あそこで起こったことをどのように特徴づけるか、また、他に起こるかもしれないことを装っていると見るか。

I mean it wasn't it Christine Ohm Who said something like?

つまり、クリスティン・オームじゃなかった？

Colleges should be where pay attention Do you know we can do this to you, too?

大学というのは、注意を払うところでなければならない。

And so what happened it at UVA for what I know is only what's in the press Actually, I know Jim Ryan a little bit he was he was dedicated to diversity equity inclusion, by the way the mission statement of the University of Virginia Calls says it's the university is defined by a diverse community.

ところで、バージニア大学のミッション・ステートメントには、「大学は多様なコミュニティによって定義される」と書かれている。

That's actually in their own mission statement and and President Ryan had gotten the governing board to approve Significant expenditures to try to create a more a more diverse community at UVA and that of course is currently running a would run afoul of The president's interpretation of civil rights statutes Keyword there is interpretation Yeah And I my view is that actually the the guys who win the election and have the right to do that You know when Obama and Biden were in power they interpreted the civil rights statutes to say that if you're accused of Sexual assault you don't get to cross-examine the person accusing you And that was an extraordinary step And and they and they threatened schools with severe punishments if they didn't implement those policies in that time But they actually never Punished any school as far as I know.

そして、ライアン学長は、UVAにもっと多様なコミュニティを作ろうと、運営委員会にかなりの支出を承認させた。それは異常な措置で、もしその時期にその政策を実施しなければ、学校に厳しい罰を科すと脅した。

I mean they just they negotiated with them to change the way they handle sexual assault on Campuses, but I do think the Trump administration Has the right to say that anything that smacks of reverse discrimination is a violation of the civil rights statutes and I don't think this is a wise policy myself, but They won the election and we have Wesleyan changed the way we approach this We had a policy where we said we had target of opportunity hires We had an all-white department and you knew of a really great scholar Who was going to add racial or ethnic diversity to your department?

しかし、私はトランプ政権が逆差別のにおいがするものは公民権法違反であると言う権利があると思いますし、私自身はこれが賢明な政策だとは思いませんが、彼らは選挙に勝ち、私たちはウェスレアンのアプローチ方法を変えました。

Or military veteran who was going to be could join the physics department where you and you didn't have many veterans Let's say in that section of the sciences Or any veterans, let's then we would say let's try to hire that person even if it wasn't Their turn so to speak we can't do that anymore and I accept that I mean, I don't again I don't like it, but I don't you don't always get what you want in democracy So that seems to me fine.

退役軍人が物理学科に入ろうとしていた場合、その学科には退役軍人があまりいなかったとしましょう。

But what they did at UVA is To say that the university wasn't moving quickly enough To change its policies to be in accord with this new interpretation of civil rights statutes and They had done many changes as far as I could tell But I it seemed to me and I this is my interpretation I have no inside knowledge of this that they wanted a trophy.

しかし、彼らがUVAで行ったことは、公民権法に関するこの新しい解釈に沿うように方針を変更するために、大学が十分に迅速に動いていなかったということだ。

They wanted Jim Ryan's Resignation as a trophy because that's a warning to other people You put what Ryan's head on a stick and you put it out there and then other presidents say I Don't want to run afoul of this administration and when you say the government has a You think the government has a right to encroach in this way?

彼らはジム・ライアンの辞任をトロフィーにしようとした。

well, I think that their understanding of it is Is it's a reason it's a an interpretation that I find mistaken But it's not incoherent, I mean, I don't I in other words The I think the decision about affirmative action and missions was was wrong I I don't like it, but it's it's there's an argument for it that states very clearly that Discrimination in the current environment Is wrong, even if it is meant to correct historic or historic discrimination or patterns of sociological discrimination systemic We like to say discrimination They say no what matters is individual fairness.

しかし、支離滅裂というわけではなく、つまり、アファーマティブ・アクションやミッションに関する決定は間違っていたと思う、歴史的な差別や社会学的な差別のパターンを是正するためであったとしても、現在の環境における差別は間違っている。

I think that's wrong, but I think that's coherent position that individual fairness trumps everything and That you can't substitute history and sociology for Individual judgment Again, I can't have an argument about why that's wrong in my view and when they would say why it's right in their view I my view is that they brought they won the election.

私はそれは間違っていると思うが、それは個人の公平性がすべてに優先するという首尾一貫した立場であり、歴史や社会学を個人の判断に置き換えることはできないということだ。

They get to enforce the rules that in a coherent way that and stay within the law what we're seeing instead is the use of civil rights legislation to ensure the obedience of Institutions Here, you know because the the new VA was about DEI at Harvard now, it's about protecting Jews Which is I think just a sham a lie But they're using that as a cover to ensure that the institutions conform To the wishes of those in power and that is different Can I ask my car are you feeling any of this at Wesleyan right now?

彼らは、首尾一貫した方法で、法律の範囲内にとどまるルールを実施することができます 私たちが代わりに見ているものは、機関の服従を確保するために公民権法を使用している ここで、あなたは知っている、新しいバージニア州は、ハーバード大学のDEIについてだったので、それはユダヤ人を保護することである 私はただの見せかけの嘘だと思う しかし、彼らは機関が権力者の希望に適合することを保証するための隠れ蓑としてそれを使用している それは異なっている 私の車に聞いてもいいですか あなたは今、ウェスレアンでこのいずれかを感じ

What are you dealing with there on the ground?

現地ではどのような対応をしているのですか？

What are you hearing from students parents?

生徒の保護者からはどのような声が聞かれますか？

Professors has this touched your university.

先生方、このようなことはあなたの大学にもありましたか？

ええ、小さなことではあります。

I think if you have a hospital or Massive PhD programs in the sciences it it hits you very differently then Let's say a liberal arts university like ours where we do have PhD programs in the sciences and we do have federal funding But it's a it's a smaller scale.

例えば、私たちのようなリベラルアーツ大学では、科学分野の博士課程があり、連邦政府からの資金援助もありますが、規模は小さいです。

We're not Immune to this these threats, but they're not They're not existential either So we feel it to some extent for sure I mean we have Pell Grant students and we have grants from the National Endowments and from the NIH and we've had some grants canceled, but I I I we haven't felt it the same way as Some of the schools one reads about in the newspaper As you know a lot of people shrug their shoulders at all of this.

ペル・グラントの学生もいるし、全米寄付金やNIHからの助成金もある。

They think What's the big deal these campuses are full of privileged people with predictably extreme views views that aren't representative of most of the country So who cares to that sort of reaction and it is a common reaction Well, it's been an orchestrated reaction.

このような反応は一般的な反応であり、誰が気にすることでもない。

I think that You know them at UVA the fastest-growing majors.

UVAで最も急成長している専攻を知っていると思う。

I think our computer science and the fast-growing Minor is data science Hardly the stuff of woke lunatics and At Harvard, you know, the the most popular majors are the ones that lead to Wall Street again This is this notion that that Harvard or UVA is filled with people with extreme views who are Unrepresentative of America, they're unrepresentative of America because they're there's they're really smart It's smarter than I am You know, I couldn't get in there.

ハーバード大学では、最も人気のある専攻がウォール街につながる専攻なんだ。ハーバード大学やUVAには、アメリカを代表しないような極端な意見を持つ人たちが集まっているという考え方があるんだ。

I couldn't get have gotten it when I was a Young person that I certainly couldn't get in today.

私がヤングだったころには手に入れることができなかったものだ。

I mean, they're just really smart gifted people and So, of course, there's a lot of resentment to them, which is a reaction that is cultivated by the right these days And it's unfortunate because in a democracy you can also be really proud of people who excel And we are right where we are proud of people who excel even though they do things.

つまり、彼らは本当に賢い才能のある人たちなんだ。だからもちろん、彼らに対する恨みは多い。

We can't do like when I watch I don't know Patrick Mahoney's play quarterback and escape a crazy rush You know, I'm filled with admiration I don't feel like oh he should he should I don't know we should shoot him in the leg or something because he's so good or You know or you know the elite Fighters in the Navy SEALs to say or the Army Rangers We don't look we don't think of them as elitist.

パトリック・マホーニーのクォーターバックのプレーを見て、クレイジーな突進から逃れるようなことはできないんだ。

We just think of them as exceptional but at some of these schools we resent them for having Created an environment where people like those guys can thrive and the rest of us don't have access to it and You know, I think that there's understandable resentment about that.

私たちは彼らのことを特別な存在だと考えているだけで、一部の学校では、彼らのような人たちが活躍できる環境を作り上げたことを恨んでいる。

So I think that the That in a healthy democracy you allow people to experiment with ideas With art with science with Politics there's it's never totally open-ended.

だから、健全な民主主義では、人々がアイデアを実験することを認めているのだと思う。

Of course, there are always some guardrails or on these things and what we're seeing now is a concerted effort to bring those guardrails in so that people have to resemble the those in power right now and that is Unusually in history United States.

もちろん、このようなことには常にガードレールがあるものだが、今私たちが目にしているのは、そのようなガードレールを持ち込もうとする協調的な努力である。

It has happened in other countries but that reduction of a space of experimentation is Not just about Harvard or University of Michigan or your local community college.

他の国でも起こっていることだが、実験の場を減らすということは、ハーバードやミシガン大学、あるいは地元のコミュニティ・カレッジだけの話ではない。

It'll also be about the Newspapers you read it'll be about broadcast television.

それは、あなたが読んでいる新聞や放送テレビについても言えるでしょう。

It'll be about Hollywood It's already about law firms, right which ones get to have access to federal buildings I mean that notion those executive orders that said if you have defended certain people that the president doesn't like your Company will no longer have access to the federal buildings.

つまり、大統領が気に入らない特定の人物を擁護した場合、その企業は連邦政府ビルへの立ち入りができなくなるという大統領令が発令されたのだ。

I mean It's wildly ambitious in its authoritarianism if they get to push around Harvard there certainly will push around push push around Wesleyan and Middlesex Community College and And Rutgers and you know, and etc You use the word orchestrated do you think this is completely manufactured Do you think this is just partisan opportunism or is there something deeper going on here?

つまり、ハーバードを押しのけ、ウェズリアンやミドルセックスコミュニティカレッジ、ラトガースを押しのけるような権威主義は野心的だということだ。

I mean even if some of this Backlash some of this resentment is cynical and and engineered and no doubt a lot of it is How much have universities contributed to it through leadership failures or bad policies?

つまり、このバックラッシュの一部が皮肉で作為的なものであり、その多くがそうであることは間違いないとしても、大学は指導者の失敗や悪い政策によって、どれだけこのような事態を招いたのだろうか？

Yeah, it's a it's a it's a fair question.

ああ、それはもっともな質問だ。

I don't like it as you can imagine because I when when people ask me this question, I say It would be like saying to the Ukrainians hey, come on Hunter Biden Corruption You have them you have problems in the mining industry All of which I mean, there's there's some there's some stuff there.

この質問をされたとき、ウクライナの人たちに『ハンター・バイデン、汚職に手を染めているじゃないか』と言っているようなものだ。

It's not great But when the Russians are attacking, I mean, it's not that's not why they're attacking The Russians are attacking Ukraine because they want to take it over the Trump administration is attacking you colleges universities because they want to take them over not because they they I don't know.

ロシアがウクライナを攻撃しているのは、ウクライナを乗っ取りたいからであって、トランプ政権が大学を攻撃しているのは、大学を乗っ取りたいからではない。

They shouldn't have had encampments or because not enough conservatives are going into physics So, yes universities Have real problems But I don't think that those problems are what has led to the assault on free speech on freedom of association and on The ability of schools to educate students the way they see fit the problems universities Are our political problems and We haven't done a good job in solving them, let me just mention two quick things I'm sorry to go on so long and an answer to your your brief question but let me just mention two things one is the ideological Conformity or the ideological narrowness of the faculty in most colleges and universities Especially at those like mine and then highly selective schools in the Northeast but all over the country University faculty Faculties are Mostly people left of center and that has gotten much worse over time And I think it's about prejudice on the part of the faculty not only prejudice, but that faculty members hire folks who with whom they're comfortable and So they hire people whose political views they're more comfortable with and I think that's a problem I think it should be fixed.

だから、たしかに大学には現実的な問題がある。しかし、その問題が言論の自由や結社の自由に対する攻撃や、学校が学生を自分たちの思うように教育する能力への攻撃につながっているとは思わない、長くなって申し訳ないし、あなたの短い質問に対する答えでもないのだが、簡単に2つだけ言わせてほしい。1つは、ほとんどの大学の教授陣のイデオロギー的な適合性、あるいはイデオロギー的な狭さだ、だから教員は、自分たちが納得しやすい政治的見解を持つ人を採用するのだ。

I think that it could and I think it should be fixed by the faculty itself That is they should being aware of their prejudices They should counteract them as best they can so I think that's a Significant problem and then there's the broader cultural problem.

つまり、教員は自分たちの偏見に気づくべきだし、できる限りそれを打ち消すべきだと思う。

それがアメリカの高等教育なのか？

Has for a good chunk of time now Define its quality on the basis of the number of people that are excluded from it So we prize being highly selective.

そのため、私たちは非常に選別的であることを評価する。

I use that phrase myself a few moments ago.

ついさっき、私もその言葉を使った。

We're a highly selective University What does that mean?

私たちは高度に選抜された大学です。

we don't we reject most people who want to go there and That has that's a very American thing it's not only American, but it's it's you know that you want the thing you can't get access to that's a traditional capitalist bourgeois Fact that lots of people want the thing that they have trouble getting access to and Colleges universities I have said over time have cultivated condescension rather than democratic practices, so That and So in a culture that of grievance and resentment, which is ours in the last at least decade to 15 years Colleges universities are especially vulnerable because we have Prided ourselves on how hard it is to get into our schools rather than These schools that are so extraordinarily wealthy Deciding to educate not another hundred or two hundred people but to educate five times as many students because they can afford to do so but they don't take that step and Then the last thing I'll mention quickly, which is such an obvious thing that colleges and universities do that's dramatically unfair Is that they give preferences to their own?

私たちは、そこに行きたいと思う人のほとんどを拒絶しているのです、少なくともここ10年から15年の間に私たちがそうであったように、大学は特に脆弱である。なぜなら、私たちは、非常に裕福なこれらの学校よりも、私たちの学校に入学することがいかに難しいかを自負してきたからである。

Legacy preferences, which are the Trump administration has not targeted They probably could do it without political cost but legacy preferences that you know You take somebody because their parents went to your school.

レガシー優遇とは、トランプ政権が対象としていないもので、おそらく政治的コストをかけずに実現できるだろう。

I mean, it's so obviously unfair and a highly selective school that it's California's trying to do away with it but in the Northeast It's very much entrenched and it's it's it's a great symbol for people of how the system is rigged against newcomers Support For the show comes from Shopify Starting a business is all about turning your ideas into reality and to see it through you need the right tools tools like Shopify Shopify is a commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and they say 10% of all e-commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started like dr Sean Ellings drillings and fillings and the gray area sole patch die for hip cats who want to look as young as they feel Shopify's design studio lets you build a big beautiful online store that matches your brand style You can also use their AI tools to step up your content creation Plus you can easily create email and social media campaigns to meet your customers wherever they are If you're ready to sell you can be ready for Shopify You can turn your big business idea into reality with Shopify on your side You can sign up for your $1 per month trial period and start selling today at Shopify comm slash Fox Go to Shopify comm slash Fox Shopify comm slash Fox Support for today's show comes from give well You might have read news on some of the massive cuts happening to foreign aid and with everything going on It might be hard to know what's actually happening or even how to help give well doesn't claim to have all the answers but for the past 18 years the nonprofit research organization says they have helped guide more than a 130,000 donors and two and a half billion dollars to highly cost-effective aid They really do terrific work the researchers are analyzing the impact of the cuts to USA ID in real time and Sharing what they're learning through research updates grant write-ups and candid podcast conversations This information is free and for everyone Give well says they have already committed tens of millions of dollars in response to this year's cuts and their researchers are working to forecast find and fund other new cost-effective needs for trusted evidence-backed insights into this evolving situation and Information about how you can help follow along and give well org slash USA ID.

つまりカリフォルニア州ではこの制度を廃止しようとしているが、北東部では、この制度は非常に定着しており、この制度がいかに新参者に不利なものであるかを示す大きなシンボルとなっている。 番組のサポートはShopifyからShopifyは、世界中の何百万ものビジネスを支えるコマースプラットフォームである。マテルやジムシャークのような有名企業から、ショーン・エリングスのドリルや詰め物のような始めたばかりのブランドまで、アメリカでのeコマースの10％を占めていると言われています。Shopifyのデザインスタジオを使え

I Think the basic problem that Elite colleges in particular have right now.

私は、特にエリート大学が今抱えている基本的な問題を考えている。

It's it's not just The sort of prejudice you're talking about in terms of hiring, right?

それは、あなたが言っているような雇用に関する偏見だけではありません。

It's about the content It's about the teaching the material itself, right?

教材そのものを教えることなんだ。

I think people outside of these institutions Increasingly think they are places where ideology has been confused with inquiry where Education has been confused with activism Columbia, for instance has embraced its identity as a protest campus.

これらの教育機関の外の人々は、教育が活動主義と混同され、イデオロギーが探究と混同されている場所だと考えることが増えていると思います コロンビア大学は、例えばプロテスト・キャンパスとしてのアイデンティティを受け入れている。

これはあなたにとって問題ですか？

Or is this just what free speech is and what it ought?

それとも、これが言論の自由であり、あるべき姿なのだろうか？

to look like Well, I I think it is both of those things I think it is a problem when schools define Let's say activism or civic engagement in a very ideologically restricted way.

学校が活動や市民参加をイデオロギー的に制限された方法で定義するのは問題だと思う。

I think it's a moral problem for schools.

学校のモラルの問題だと思う。

I'll give you an example I'm giving a talk at some conference or and a guidance counselor from high school says I'll just tell you if one of my students was applying to Wesleyan and she said her civic engagement was to protecting the rights of the unborn It would be professional malpractice for me to allow her to put that in the application Now, I guess I was naive.

もし私の生徒がウェスレアンに入学を希望していて、その生徒の市民活動が胎児の権利を守ることだと言ったら、それを願書に書くことを許可するのは職業上の不正行為になる。

私はそれにショックを受けた。

私は長い間、大統領を務めてきた。

I've been a faculty member And I said come on Everybody knows that is civic engagement and he said and everybody in my world He said and guidance counselors know that your admissions people won't like it That was to me a slap in the head that I needed because I have no reason to doubt that he was right because all these guidance counselors like shaking their heads and I Think that's that's a that's a way in which the the soft despotism of prejudice in the College University constricts this free speech the realm of contestation and I've been fighting against it now for the last decade or so both as a as a Person who has access to the media and writes articles about such things Give speeches about such things, but but also as a teacher adding more conservative voices into my own classes I teach courses in the history of moral philosophy or Course on the modern and the postmodern and So I I've always privileged the kind of mavericks and and philosophy or political theory, but now I'm also adding to my classes Criticisms of those Voices of those progressive thinkers and Some of times the students are quite surprised by it and They're totally capable of dealing with the issues in other words They may not on their own Gravitate towards conservative critiques of progressivism, but when exposed to them, they're perfectly happy willing able to To deal with a variety of perspectives.

指導カウンセラーは、入試担当者がそれを好まないことを知っているんだ」 それは私にとって必要な平手打ちだった。というのも、ガイダンス・カウンセラーは皆、首をかしげるような顔をしているからだ。それは、大学における偏見という軟弱な専制主義が、言論の自由という争いの領域を狭めているのだと思う、道徳哲学史やモダンとポストモダンの講義を担当している、しかし今は、進歩的な思想家たちの声に対する批判も授業に加えている。学生たちはそれにとても驚くこともあるし、問題に対処する能力も十分にある。言い換えれば、彼らは自分たちだけ

So all that is to say that a school can define a Civic purpose I think that's not intention with its Educational purposes and most schools in the in the United States ever since the 1700s Have had a civic purpose as part of what they do This this I think it's nonsense what some of the presidents these days are saying.

1700年代以降、アメリカのほとんどの学校は、教育目的の一部として市民的な目的を掲げてきた。

Oh, we're just for the pursuit of truth Colleges in America have always been about character and and about civics And so we can embrace that but we can't do it in a parochial way or if because if we do it in a parochial way We're limiting the educational potential of our students to explore ideas that may not be currently fashionable in their generation or Among the faculty and I found at Wesleyan Many faculty members who themselves might be leftists, you know But are perfectly happy to teach a range of material not Satirically or critically but actually because they know it's important even if it's not the where they've come down themselves and if schools do that, I Think they also make better citizens.

ああ、私たちはただ真実を追求したいだけなんだ。アメリカの大学は、常に人格と公民について学んできた。だから、私たちはそれを受け入れることができる。でも、偏狭なやり方ではできないし、もし偏狭なやり方をしてしまったら、生徒の教育の可能性を制限してしまうことになる、しかし、風刺的でも批判的でもなく、実際に重要だとわかっているからこそ、さまざまなことを喜んで教えている。

That is they make people who are more capable of Dealing with disagreement and conflict in the public sphere Do you see some other cultural or institutional or moral harm in too much?

つまり、公共圏における意見の相違や対立に対処する能力を持った人間を作るということだ。 文化的、制度的、道徳的な弊害があると思いますか？

Ideological conformity I do I do especially the humanities and interpretive social sciences.

イデオロギーへの適合......私は特に人文科学と解釈的社会科学をやっている。

I think people don't ask certain questions That conservatives have long asked they will neglect questions around let's say the family as a incubator of social practices that They they won't ask Questions around Inequality that conservatives might ask that that progressives don't don't ask I so I think a lot of things just don't get asked because There there's no one to ask those questions like, you know when I was a graduate student Women were starting to go to graduate school and they were asking questions about women's history and the men are like Women's history was just history, you know, and they said no well actually it's men's history you know, you haven't asked these questions about let's say childbirth or About women's work eventually people said oh my gosh.

保守派が長い間問うてきたような、ある種の問いを人々は問わないと思うんです。例えば、社会的慣習のインキュベーターとしての家族にまつわる問いを、保守派は問わないかもしれない不平等にまつわる問いを、進歩派は問わないんです、私が大学院生だった頃、女性たちが大学院に通い始めて、女性史について質問していたんです。男性たちは、女性史はただの歴史だ、と言っていました。

Those are really interesting questions, too You don't have to be a woman to ask them but you just so happens that men didn't ask them And so I think in some areas Having religious people having people libertarian perspectives having conservatives It really does open up questions that have that are productive and some will say what do you want Nazis?

女性である必要はないけれど、たまたま男性が聞かなかっただけで、宗教的な人たちがいれば、リベタリアン的な人たちがいれば、保守的な人たちがいる。

You don't want flat-earth people in the geography department, but there's a there's a little there's a long way between You know a department that defines itself in let's say Marxist terms or in anti-colonial terms and Nazism there's a lot of other things there that can be asked that don't get asked in some colleges and universities because of ideological conformity Universities would be stronger if they were more intellectually diverse Because we learn more from people with we just with whom we disagree Than from people with whom we agree.

でも、例えばマルクス主義の用語や反植民地主義、ナチズムといった用語で自らを定義するような学部では、イデオロギー的な適合性のために、大学によっては質問されないようなことがたくさんある。

Is that to say that you think the university should be a place where people?

それは、大学は人々が集まる場所であるべきだと考えているということですか？

Sometimes feel uncomfortable and if it is and I think we both believe that it is how do you distinguish productive discomfort?

もしそうだとしたら、私たち2人はそう信じていると思うが、生産的な不快感をどう区別するのか？

from actual harm It's a good question Theoretically, it's I don't find it.

理論的には、私はそうは思わない。

No, I mean, I don't find it that hard actually did it, you know, like But a lot of people seem to I know but I don't believe them I frankly like yesterday my grandson was sitting there He's six years old and he says he finds out that there's a button in the car That somebody pushed by mistake in his seat got very warm, you know a seat warmer.

でも、多くの人がそう思っているようだけど、僕は信じないんだ。昨日、孫がそこに座っていて、6歳なんだけど、車の中にボタンがあって、誰かが間違えて押してしまって、座席がとても暖かくなったんだって。

So he's looking at that button He's thinking what if I push it by mistake?

だから彼はそのボタンを見て、間違って押してしまったらどうしようと考えているんだ。

and he's get starts getting upset because what if my to what if my foot hits it and and the proper answer is like Just calm down basically because he's not really being harmed by that button I've had to say to students and I know not every one of my colleagues don't always agree Well, they'll say I don't feel safe.

もし足がぶつかったらどうするんだ、と彼は動揺し始めるんだ。

I'll say you are safe and They said I don't feel safe as I said, that's really not my problem.

私は、あなたは安全だと言うし、彼らは私が言ったように、私は安全だとは感じないと言った。

My problem is if you're not safe, that's my problem I had a student years ago wanted a band someone from graduation This guy had done some stupid stuff and And he was punished for it.

私の問題は、もし君が安全でないなら、それは私の問題だ。何年か前に、卒業式でバンドをやりたいという生徒がいた。

She said but I don't want him at graduation and if to me that was like He wanted a scalp.

でも、卒業式には来てほしくないわ。

He wanted the trophy of saying I had him banned.

彼は、私が彼を追放したというトロフィーが欲しかったのだ。

I said no, I Guarantee your safety if you don't want to come that's about it's up to you.

私はノーと言った。もしあなたが来たくないのなら、あなたの安全を保証する。

We had a speaker this year who had Controversial Inquiry about trans issues, especially about gender affirming care for young people she hadn't taken a stand on it, but she had explored these issues and the real controversies around them a Group of students came and said we think you should cancel this Because I think you're doing actual harm and I have said Our duty is to protect the vulnerable like trans students and immigrants undocumented people I've said that publicly many times.

今年、トランスの問題、特に若者の性別肯定ケアについて、物議を醸すような質問をしたスピーカーがいた。

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アメリカの大学はトランプを生き延びられるか？| アメリカの大学はトランプに勝てるのか？ (Will American colleges survive Trump? | The Gray Area)

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