I have a feeling this is too controversial for people so we might have to change the claim But somebody must want to have an ominous conversation about this Do you think trans women should be able to compete women's sports too controversial even for you son?

しかし、誰かがこのことについて不吉な会話をしたいに違いない トランス女性が女子スポーツに出場できるようにすべきだと思いますか？

This alone is interesting to me.

これだけでも私には興味深い。

Nobody will have a conversation about this interesting I'll give someone else the mic and let them question me about this claim Trans women should be able to compete in women's sports.

私は他の人にマイクを渡して、トランス・ウーマンがウーマンのスポーツで競技できるようになるべきだという主張について質問させる。

You want to have that conversation.

その会話をしたいのだろう。

No too scared Okay, you want to have that conversation?

いや、怖くはない。

Nope too scared too scared Okay Anybody anybody trans women should be able to compete in women's sports be terrifying Trans women should be able to compete in women's sports.

いや、怖すぎる怖すぎる......誰でもいいから、トランス女性が女子スポーツに出場できるようにすべきだ......恐ろしいことだ。

Anybody have it.

誰か持っていないか？

You have an opinion Awesome.

意見があるんだね。

Awesome.

素晴らしい。

Stand on the neutral line right there So the game has only two rules We can do it with one.

ニュートラル・ラインに立つ。

Oh, we got two people.

ああ、2人いる。

Oh, we got three people.

ああ、3人いるよ。

All right.

分かった。

Well, I was wrong I was wrong.

まあ、私が間違っていた......私が間違っていた。

I was wrong.

私は間違っていた。

I didn't think it would come.

来るとは思わなかった。

Okay, stand on neutral.

よし、ニュートラルに立て。

Okay Okay, so this is a very simple game.

オーケー、オーケー、これはとてもシンプルなゲームだ。

We have a Few rules the first rule is you can't stand in between the line Very straightforward The second rule is you can't move until I say move and the reason for that is because we don't want anybody's opinion To affect anybody else's opinion Exactly precisely now, let me go over this Strongly agree agree Slightly agree neutral slightly disagree disagree strongly disagree so I'm gonna ask this question and come back to five and don't move until I get to Go and stand on a line.

私たちにはいくつかのルールがあります。1つ目のルールは、列の間に立ってはいけないということです。2つ目のルールは、私が動くと言うまで動いてはいけないということです。その理由は、誰の意見にも影響を与えたくないからです。

It could not possibly be any simple, but you'd be astonished How many people do not pay attention to the rules?

これ以上簡単なことはないはずだが、ルールに注意を払わない人がいかに多いことか。

Trans women should be able to compete in women's sports five four three two one move Okay, we've got one disagree one strongly agreed to up you're on the line, okay tell us why you agree I Agree because Trans women should be able to be key should be able to compete in women's sports because they are competing underneath their identity that they very solidly aligned with and to deprive them of that is to Kind of say that their identity is not acceptable in society In society or in sports that they're they're not about their identity is not validated.

トランス女性は女子スポーツで競技できるべきだ 5 4 3 2 1 移動 よし、同意しないが1つ、強く同意するが1つあった。

Okay Do you agree with what she said?

では、彼女の発言に同意しますか？

Yes, but that's not specifically why I agree that trans women should be able to compete.

はい、でも、トランス女性が競技に参加できるようになることに私が同意する理由は特にありません。

Okay.

オーケー。

Why do you think I believe?

なぜ私が信じていると思う？

Trans women should be able to compete in sports because there's specific criterion That trans women have to meet in order to be able to compete under the woman category in which sports I'm not an expert on all sports.

トランス女性がスポーツで競技することができるのは、トランス女性が女性のカテゴリーで競技するために満たすべき特定の基準があるからだ。

I'm not an expert either, but I do know for at least the Olympics There are requirements for trans women because when trans women go on test When transform and go on hormones Testosterone drops in them.

私も専門家ではないが、少なくともオリンピックについては知っている。トランス女性が検査を受けてホルモンを投与されると、男性ホルモンが減少するため、トランス女性に条件がある。

So a lot of the natural advantages They might have being born in a man's body are depleted like the strength testosterone gives you and so on and so forth So they have to be below a certain testosterone level They have to be on estrogen for a certain amount of time and even the rule where you have to be below a certain test Percentages have stopped cis women from competing in sports.

だから、テストステロンが与えてくれる力強さなど、男性の体に生まれながらにして持っているかもしれない長所の多くが枯渇してしまう。

So They're very like hard set rules.

だから、それらはとてもハードなルールのようなものなんだ。

There's this woman meaning what this woman?

この女性とはどういう意味ですか？

Women who was born as women Women who were born as women.

女性として生まれた女性たち 女性として生まれた女性たち

Okay, cis women.

じゃあ、シス女性は。

Yes This cis gendered is when you're born in the correct sex.

そう、このシス・ジェンダーというのは、正しい性別で生まれた場合だ。

So like I was born a woman I'm identify as woman still I'm sis if I were to identify as non-binary or anything else.

だから、私が女性として生まれたように、私は女性としてアイデンティティを持っている。

I would not be sis You're gonna ask this question, I know what sis means Well, sis isn't in in the question and what sis might mean to you that doesn't mean that people watching this are gonna know It's just things are a definition things mean things Sis gender means one thing Is it possible that some people could define or perceive the word women to be different?

この質問をするのであれば、私は姉の意味を知っている。

Well, I'm not talking about women I'm talking about the term cisgender Yeah, so I think it's important that we define our terms.

私は女性について話しているのではなく、シスジェンダーという言葉について話しているんだ。

That's why I meant I wanted to define it Yeah, do you think it's unfair for me to ask you to define it?

だから、それを定義したいと言ったんだ。

No I I just don't it sounded like you didn't know what since gender was and I was just wondering if you didn't know that Was why you thought you should ask that question?

いや、そうじゃなくて......性別が何なのか知らないように聞こえたから、もし知らないのなら、なぜその質問をするべきだと思ったのかと思っただけなんだ。

Oh, no I'm actually I'll tell you why there but I'm a legitimate gender studies scholar.

あ、いや、実は......理由はそこで話すけど、私は正当なジェンダー研究の研究者なんだ。

Oh Yeah, thank you.

ああ、ありがとう。

I've I don't mean to brag but I've really I'll published almost anyone in the world in gender studies Thank you, I'll show you my body of literature later, but for now Trans women should be able to compete in women's sports.

自画自賛するつもりはありませんが、私はジェンダー研究において、世界中のほとんどの人を出版してきました。

What do you think about that?

それについてどう思う？

I do not think they should be able to do that.

そんなことはできないはずだ。

Okay, did anything they per se Persuade you think about that for a second, but tell us why I just think the Biological makeup of a man is not the same as women whether they take hormones or not Especially if they've been competing in that sport for years They did it originally as a man or woman and then they switched to female which I played a female sport growing up What did you play lacrosse?

そのスポーツを何年も続けているのであればなおさらだ。

Which is very different.

それはまったく違う。

That's the one with the thing the net Which is very different from male lacrosse So I just think that it comes down to the biological makeup of like the training used for it and everything But I agree with a lot of the stuff that they say I'm not like They shouldn't do it, but I just think it should be so you think and I just want to make sure I get your argument You think that they shouldn't do it because it confers an unfair advantage on the person even if they've met their hormone requirements because as a biological male ages before they transition they have certain intrinsic advantages a Height for example, maybe in basketball or now that doesn't mean all men are tall but on a Gaussian curve It means that more men are tall than women So is that I don't want to mischaracterize.

男子ラクロスとはネットの形が全く違うんだ。だから、トレーニングの仕方とか、そういう生物学的な構造によると思う、ただ、そうあるべきだと思うんだ。あなたの主張をきちんと理解したいんだ。 ホルモンの必要量を満たしていたとしても、その人に不公平なアドバンテージを与えてしまうから、そうすべきではない、とあなたは考えている。

Yes.

そうだ。

That's what I mean.

そういうことだ。

Did that persuade you?

それで納得しましたか？

I would say no because we have talked about like the Hormones and like the genetic makeup of a male body the versus a female body, but there are changes that can Happen whenever Someone starts to transition that can affect their muscle density Just like their overall genetic makeup another genetic makeup, but like their hormones and just how their body functions So, I don't know if that is like completely valid in arguing this what if I could provide you with evidence that even with the hormone replacement therapy That still conferred an advantage on people born as men That it that it wouldn't give it would it would even if they underwent hormone therapy It still was an advantage For the trans woman to participate in sports.

ホルモンの話や、男性の身体と女性の身体の遺伝的な構成について話してきたので、私はノーと言いたいのですが、誰かが移行を開始するたびに、筋肉密度に影響を与える可能性のある変化が起こる可能性があります、ホルモン補充療法を受けたとしても、男性として生まれた人に優位性があるという証拠を提示することができるのであれば、それが完全に有効かどうかはわかりませんが......。

Would you then be for it or against it?

それなら賛成ですか、反対ですか？

I would be open to revising my opinion if there's Evidence presented So you would be open to revise it and would you be open to revising your opinion to go to the agree or the slightly?

もしエビデンスが提示されれば、私は自分の意見を修正する用意がある。

Agree slightly agree, but I don't think I would go any farther than that.

少し同意するが、それ以上踏み込むことはないと思う。

Okay.

オーケー。

Okay So the thing that's keeping you must be some identity factor.

なるほど、だからあなたを引き留めているのは、何かアイデンティティーの要素に違いない。

Yes.

そうだ。

Okay.

オーケー。

So let's talk about that in a second So just to be clear, I don't want to put words in your mouth if you were to be shown evidence to your satisfaction that people born as male who transition who met the requirements of whatever Lacrosse Yeah, and you if you were to be shown that they would still have an unfair event you would be willing to move one Possibly two but not three.

もし、あなたが、男性として生まれ、ラクロスのどのような条件を満たしたとしても、トランジション（移行）した人が、まだ不公平な出来事を抱えているという証拠を満足いくまで見せられたとしたら、あなたは、1人を移動させても構わないと思うだろう。

Is that what you said?

そう言ったのか？

Is that fair to say?

そう言っていいのだろうか？

Okay, if you were to be shown that advantage, would you move?

では、もしそのアドバンテージを見せられたら、あなたは動きますか？

Probably not?

おそらく違うだろう？

Okay, what would it take for you to move?

では、移動するには何が必要ですか？

Nothing, probably I feel very strongly about this because here's the thing even if you were to show me proof that People born as men who transition as women still have an unfair advantage You know, I'd believe that full-heartedly I wouldn't like try to dispute that if I saw like the facts behind that Yeah, however sports inherently have genetic advantaged players like Michael Phelps Michael Phelps with the heart.

いや、たぶん私はこのことを強く感じているんだと思う。たとえあなたが、男性として生まれた人が女性として転身しても、不公平なアドバンテージがあるという証拠を私に示したとしても、私はそれを心から信じるだろう。

Yeah.

そうだね。

Yeah.

そうだね。

Yeah.

そうだね。

He didn't produce like lactic acid.

彼は乳酸のようなものを作らなかった。

He had an abnormally large wingspan He had like webbed toes and webbed feet.

彼は異常に大きな翼幅を持っていた。

No, it's not him competing.

いや、彼が出場しているわけではない。

That's an unfair genetic advantage We don't care about genetic advantages until it's someone transitioning from a man to a woman or a woman to a man I have to call you.

それは不公平な遺伝的優位性だ。男から女へ、あるいは女から男へと移行する人が出てくるまでは、遺伝的優位性など気にしない。

I have to push back on that I have personally never heard anybody concerned about people transitioning to a man Competing in men and men sports of you.

私は個人的に、男性に移行する人について心配している人を聞いたことがない。

No, that's also another problem.

いや、それも問題だ。

Why are we still focus on trans women?

なぜ私たちはまだトランス女性に焦点を当てているのか？

I'm not trans man as well.

私もトランス男性ではない。

Well, I think I think unfair advantage It should be well But that's what I'm saying no one really cares about it being an unfair advantage or we wouldn't like basketball for instance if you're tall and I you could still make it to the NBA if you're like above six seven, but if you're below six foot and Phenomenal, that's a basketball short.

例えば、身長が高くても、170cm以上あればNBAでプレーすることができる。

No, this is football my shirt.

いや、これは僕のシャツなんだ。

This is the Seahawks Okay, I don't know much about sports Yeah, well ask me about gender studies.

シーホークスだよ。スポーツのことはよく知らないんだ。

That's a different thing But let's say well because it's about sports, you know some of the logistics you have are like that are in sports come to play here and like I said a lot of sports is genetic advantage like Being born and having an aptitude for something shouldn't mean you can't do it No one like I said, no one wanted to make themselves not swim in the Olympics So so do you think that there should be one division and we just throw all men and women in the same division?

それはまた別の話だけど、スポーツの話だから、スポーツをやっている人がここでプレーするために持っているようなロジスティクスもあるし、さっきも言ったように、スポーツの多くは遺伝的なアドバンテージがある。

That's not what I said.

そんなことは言っていない。

No, no, but I'm asking you.

いや、いや、でも聞いているんだ。

Is that what is that what you know?

それはあなたが知っていることですか？

Why not I do think there is, you know some pros to having Two separate divisions for men and women.

なぜそうしないのか......男女で2つの部門を設けることには、いくつかの利点があると思うんだ。

But like I said, honestly, I have what are the pros?

でも、正直なところ、長所は何だろう？

Honestly, I haven't given that enough thought to have like a Concrete stance on it that I would want to fully because I haven't done enough research or thought on it that that's fair So you think that there should be two divisions as of right now before I do a lot of like thinking about it Like I said, like I'd haven't put enough thought to it to me to give you a clear firm stance Oh, yeah, so I'm kind of think to think to this myself.

正直なところ、まだ十分な調査や考察をしたわけではないので、具体的なスタンスを決められるほどには考えていないんだ。 だから、僕がいろいろ考える前に、今の時点で2つに分けるべきだと思うんだね。

So the reason and I'm could be totally I'm just trying to figure this out myself So the reason the reason that there are two divisions are because there must be certain Categories of things that different sexes are better at or there wouldn't be divisions in the first place unless it was just like some social convention You're not wrong there So Is it possible to abstract from that and say that that reason is what confers an advantage on somebody?

だから、2つの部門があるのは、男女によって得意なカテゴリーがあるはずだからだ。そうでなければ、社会的な慣習のようなものでない限り、そもそも部門は存在しない。

No, because you can have advantages over someone who's also the same gender as you just as a different gender does Gender is not the only factor that provides an advantage or not.

違う性別の人がそうであるように、同じ性別の人よりも優位に立てることがあるからだ。 性別だけが優位に立てるかどうかの要因ではない。

However, it's definitely one that contributes to an advantage you have right There's a trans swimmer in the Olympics.

オリンピックにトランスジェンダーのスイマーがいる。

She didn't win if if trans women really have a crazy crazy advantage on women Why didn't she do what a sweep mean win everything Sweep like I thought you may give her a mop and like sweep.

もしトランス女性が本当に女性に対してクレイジーでクレイジーなアドバンテージを持っているなら、なぜ彼女は勝利しなかったのだろう。

Oh, why didn't she win all the awards?

ああ、なぜ彼女はすべての賞を受賞しなかったのだろう？

Why didn't she win every race and why didn't she beat them by like seconds?

なぜ彼女はすべてのレースで勝てなかったのか？

Which is what she did get into the Olympics.

それが、彼女がオリンピックに出場した理由だ。

She got into the Olympics.

彼女はオリンピックに出場した。

She didn't win That's because she's a trained swimmer That's because she's been training to swim for as long as everyone else has it's what it makes sense You got into the Olympics.

彼女は勝てなかった。それは彼女が訓練されたスイマーだからだ。それは彼女がみんなと同じように長い間泳ぐためのトレーニングをしてきたからだ。

She's been swimming at that time for her entire career But like I said, she didn't sweep.

でも、言ったように、彼女はスイープしなかった。

She didn't have such a crazy advantage that she was Performing way above the ranks of the other women so even if it were shown that trans Women had distinct advantages That wouldn't be enough to move you to agree.

彼女は、他の女性たちよりもはるかに高い順位にいるような、とんでもないアドバンテージを持っていたわけではないのだから、たとえトランス女性が明確なアドバンテージを持っていることが示されたとしても、あなたが同意するほどにはならないだろう。

Yeah, because like I said this woman could have an advantage on another cis woman So, why should I care if a trans woman has an advantage on a cis woman when a cis woman could also have an advantage on another cis woman Like the fact that the trans doesn't really mean anything to me Like I said having a genetic advantage can and is a part of sports Okay, I think I understand their reasoning but I'm not positive I have a question for them so do you think that there could be like the women's group the man group and then People who are trans have their own category.

だから、トランスの女性がシスの女性より有利かどうかを気にする必要はない。シスの女性もシスの女性より有利かもしれないのに、トランスの女性がシスの女性より有利かどうかを気にする必要はない。

Who's the question for which one either or?

どちらか、あるいはどちらか？

Feel like those groups are just a nail Alienate them even more and just like put them off into a separate category because they don't belong in women or male They they are not being put properly into the groups that they identify with Do I don't know anything about sports as you know from not even knowing what that means there does see see Falcons or whatever But but my question is then don't isn't aren't there rule I thought there rules against like shooting yourself up with steroids aren't there?

そのようなグループはちょうど釘であるように感じる 彼らは女性や男性に属していないため、さらに疎外し、ちょうど別のカテゴリにそれらをオフに置くような 彼らは彼らが識別するグループに適切に配置されていません 私はそれが何を意味するのかさえ知らないことから、あなたが知っているように、スポーツのことは何も知らない ファルコンズや何かを参照してください しかし、私の質問は、その後、私はステロイドで自分自身を撮影するようなルールがあると思ったルールはないのですか？

Yes So when you shoot yourself up with steroids, that must mean you have a competitive advantage.

そう、だからステロイドを打つということは、競争上の優位性があるということなんだ。

So that's why they don't do it, right?

だからやらないんだろ？

That shooting yourself up with steroids gives you a competitor I would assume or say wouldn't be a rule against it.

ステロイドを注射することで競技者になれるのだから、それを禁止するルールはないだろう。

I Yes, there's there is a rule against using stare performance enhancing steroids But I don't think that's on the same level as hormone therapy No, no, that's not where I was going with it.

でも、それはホルモン療法と同じレベルではないと思う。

So no I was going with it It's possible that there are certain things that one can do to yield an event a performance event.

イベントをパフォーマンス・イベントにするためにできることがある。

Yes.

そうだ。

Yes, so You shouldn't the idea be and again, I'm just thinking to this myself Shouldn't the idea be that we want to level the playing field to take out advantages for different people.

そうですね。もう一度言いますが、私自身が考えているのは、さまざまな人にとって有利になるような競争条件を公平にするということではないのでしょうか。

I Think like artificial advantages is what you're trying to say like Oh, oh, I'm sorry.

人工的な長所というのは、あなたが言おうとしていることだと思う。

I thought you were waving to side thought you were waving to somebody.

誰かに手を振っているのかと思った。

Well, first of all Seahawks got a rap Seahawks Their football team from Seattle's in Washington Who's the Know the person who throws the ball the QB.

さて、まずシーホークスがラップになった。 シーホークスとは、ワシントン州シアトル出身のフットボールチーム。

Who's the QB?

QBは誰？

No, but okay to go off her point I Like performance-enhancing drugs are obviously banned and it's because they enhance your performance.

いや、でも彼女の指摘から外れてもいい。 身体強化薬が禁止されているのは明らかだし、それは身体能力を向上させるからだ。

However, however If you have enough money, you can pay a coach to help advance your performance You know what?

しかし、十分な資金があれば、コーチにお金を払って自分のパフォーマンスを向上させることができる。

I mean?

つまり？

Like you there's specific training facilities There's specific programs that all cost money to access and by accessing those with money.

君たちと同じように、特定のトレーニング施設があり、特定のプログラムにアクセスするためにはお金がかかる。

You also gain an advantage so it's not like These hormones so we should get it's not like because these hormones are only band becomes their performance enhancing They're also extremely harmful on people's bodies.

また、アドバンテージも得られるので、これらのホルモンはバンドがパフォーマンスを向上させるだけで、人の体には非常に有害なので、私たちはそれを得るべきではありません。

So we should give if that logic calls we should give all Non-trans women extra coaching to make up for the deficiencies.

だから、その論理で言うなら、トランスしていない女性全員に、不足分を補うための特別なコーチングを与えるべきだ。

No, that's not what I'm saying I'm I'm furthering showing that there's already a discrepancy in sports If you're rich and can pay for equipment training facilities a training coach you're gonna do better than someone who can't and I'm not like the Russians and like the like the Russians in in in Cycling and weightlifting.

いや、私が言っているのはそういうことではなく、スポーツ界ではすでに格差があることをさらに示しているのだ。もしあなたがお金持ちで、トレーニング設備やトレーニングコーチにお金を払えるなら、そうでない人よりも良い結果を残せるだろうし、私はロシア人とは違うし、自転車競技や重量挙げのロシア人とは違う。

Yeah, like most people in the Olympics most people in the Olympics have access to really good trainers and really good training and If everyone in the world was had access to that training I don't think the Olympics would look the same there'd be a lot of different people in there But they don't because because inequities like I said are inherently in sports.

もし世界中のすべての人がそのようなトレーニングを受けることができたとしたら、オリンピックは同じようにはならないと思う。

They're gonna be in sports no matter what Did that convince you?

彼らは何があってもスポーツをするつもりだ。 それで納得したか？

I kind of forgot So so the basically I do the idea is you can't control There are always going to be certain people who have advantages certain people have disadvantages and I don't want to mischaracterize your argument but the idea is that All right.