Villain Therapy: Gollum, Smeagol, and Dissociative Identity Disorder（Villain Therapy: Gollum, Smeagol, and Dissociative Identity Disorder）

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Jonathan: None of the evil awful things Smeagol does are mental illness.
That's greed, that's corruption, that's human flaws and frailties that we all have.
Gollum: Precious!
People with dissociative identity disorder, the reason they have it is they've been through hell.
They deserve compassion. They deserve understanding. Not judgment, not 'stop putting on an act'.
Smeagol: What did you call me?
Jonathan: Understanding leads to compassion and compassion leads to healing,
when you have a united support of people who believe in you, that healing is within your reach.
Smeagol: And never come back.
Jonathan: But if it loses, then we eats it.
Internet... Gollums?: If the Baggins loses we eats it whole.
Jonathan: Welcome to Cinema Therapy.
I'm Jonathan Decker, licensed therapist and I love movies.
Alan: And I'm a little lad who loves berries and cream.
Jonathan: This is Alan Seawright, who literally just saw that for the first time.
Alan: I've never seen berries and cream.
Jonathan: We just showed it to him.
A little lad: I'm a little lad who loves berries...
and creeeeaaaaam!
Jonathan: So today we're going to be talking about Smeagol / Gollum from the Lord of the Rings
Alan: My favorite villain of all time.
Jonathan: So to be clear, there is no correlation between mental illness and violent, villainous behaviors.
In fact, if you suffer with mental illness, you are 10 times more likely to be a victim of violence. Alan: Correct.
Jonathan: In your face, bigots.
Alan: You're dumb and we hate you.
Bigots, not everyone else.
They boldly went: Oooohhhhhhh...
There are aspects of Smeagol's personality that could be broken down or described as mental illness,
but none of the evil awful things he does are mental illness. Alan: No.
Jonathan: That's greed. That's corruption. That's human flaws and frailties that we all have
Alan: Amplified by the power of the ring.
Jonathan: People watch these films and they see how he goes back and forth
and they ask, Well, is this some form of psychosis? Does he have multiple personality disorder?
So what would a therapist say about this and how we break down the character?
First of all, it's not multiple personality disorder. Alan: Oh, okay.
Jonathan: So what is it? I will tell you, let's watch.
So there's Deagol. He was fishing. Fish dragged him into the water, somehow. Big fish.
Alan: Found the ring
Jonathan: And found the ring, and Smeagol here sees it for the first time.
Smeagol: Give us that, Deagol, my love.
Deagol: Why?
Smeagol: Because, [it's my birthday]
Alan: So, one thing that Peter Jackson does to really good effect here, but a lot in the films,
is he does a lot of close ups that are very close and he puts the camera in really close and uses a wide lens
which tends to stretch out the face. Just... it makes things a little bit uncomfortable. Jonathan: Yeah.
Alan: Comes from his time as a horror director, I think. Jonathan: Yeah.
Alan: Since this is kind of a horror movie scene.
Smeagol: Uuugh!
Deagol: Aaaaaaaaah!
Jonathan: So there's obvious supernatural influence here with the ring,
but it's meant to be symbolic of all of our potential for corruption,
all of our potential for greed,
for abandoning our morality in favor of selfishness, in favor of...
It is serious... you get the horror movie vibes in the scene.
Alan: Yeah, very much so. And that's really influenced by the...
the score just being this one lone voice representing the call of the ring. And then that heartbeat.
Jonathan: Which is Deagol's, right? Because it slows down and stops.
Alan: Yeah, it slows down and stops
Jonathan: I remember being in the movie theater being deeply uncomfortable, but that was the point.
I mean, thematically, it's about... The influence of evil. And horror directors,
you think they they spend so much time in the dark that they wouldn't be able to do light very well,
but there's so much beauty and hope in these films to contrast it. I mean, Peter Jackson's just...
Alan: He's just a master of filmmaking.
[whisper]
Jonathan: What was that whisper?
[whisper again]
Alan: It was something in the Black Speech.
Smeagol: My Precious.
Jonathan: So one thing we're doing with this episode, because the films give you Gollum out of order.
Like, his story, Smeagol's story.
Alan: Yeah, we're kind of putting it a little bit more in order.
Gollum: Murderer they called us.
They cursed us, and drove us away
Alan: So he's blaming other people for...
Smeagol: Gollum, Gollum...
Alan: He's miserable and sick, and...
Gollum: And we wept, Precious
Alan: ...can't die because he's holding the ring.
Gollum: [We wept to] be so alone.
Jonathan: Well, he weeps for being alone. He also weeps for what he did to his friend. Alan: Yeah.
Gollum: [...] was to catch fish [...]
Jonathan: I mean, the fact is, he started this as somebody who enjoyed fishing with his buddy.
Gollum: So juicy sweet!
Jonathan: He was just... This little song.
Alan: Oh, so gross...
Jonathan: Can we talk about the transition from Andy Serkis to practical makeup to...
Alan: Yeah. So we started with basically just Andy Serkis in a wig.
And we've gone through multiple different makeups now, including this one, which is very extreme.
You can see it stretching his face out.
And I love that in this shot, they actually take...
This starts with Andy Serkis in a makeup.
Jonathan: Yeah.
Alan: Blinks. He opens his eyes and they're unnaturally large, and they've gone to a full CG Gollum.
Truly groundbreaking stuff.
And I know where the seams are, and I cannot see them. And that's just... Jonathan: Yeah.
Alan: It's just a - mastery of the craft and b - a huge amount of work. Jonathan: Yeah.
Alan: Like, they just did it over and over and over again until it was perfect.
The thing that you don't hear about is, you know, everybody like, Oh, they can just fix that with CG.
And when... when people say, Oh, that's just CGI and it's lame.
Computers aren't making the thing. It's called computer generated imagery, which is not right.
It's artist generated imagery. It's just the artist... their tool is a computer instead of...
Jonathan: Yeah, no-one says paint generated imagery or rock generated imagery
Alan: Yeah. Canvas generated imagery is not what it is.
So they're artists doing it. And when they do stuff like that, and it's that perfect,
people who knew nothing about filmmaking came out of that movie and were like, So Gollum was CG?
Because there's never been a CG character before that looked real. And he just looks real. Jonathan: Yeah.
Alan: You watch it and it's like, Yeah, they just filmed that with a camera.
Jonathan: As much as you hate Jar Jar, they did a pretty good job.
Alan: Jar Jar is very good,
Jonathan: Especially for being, like, the first.
Alan: There are some design issues that make him a little less believable,
but, I mean, the work on him is stellar. Jonathan: Yeah.
Alan: I do not fault the artists at all. They did great work.
The actor was acting his guts out.
Jonathan: And he did exactly what he was asked to do.
Alan: Yeah, he didn't have a good script to work from, but he worked his guts out and then the artist did amazing work.
This though... Phenomenal script, wonderful performance, absolutely stellar craftsmanship from all of the artists,
and that's the end result. And it's beautiful. I love it.
Jollum: Ooh, ooh! We Jonathan Dekker and we loves movies,
Laird Decker: And I'm Jonathan Decker, Laird of Scotland.
Jollum: No, no, you're not.
Laird Decker: But I am.
Jollum: It can't be, it can't be.
Alan: Established Titles lets you buy as little as one square foot of land
just outside of Ardallie, Aberdeenshire, Scotland, which is near the ancestral homeland of Clan Seawright in Aberdeen.
Laird Decker: And then, according to historic Scottish custom, you can officially refer to yourself as Laird or Lady.
Plus, they give you the certificate with a little crest.
Jollum: Give it to us!
Filthy little hobbitses.
We wants it.
We needs it.
Must have the Precious.
Laird Decker: By participating, you're helping to preserve the woodlands and biodiversity of Scotland.
Establish Titles plants a tree for every order, and is partnered with global charities,
like One Tree Planted and Trees For the Future.
Jollum: Filthy trees! We want bogs and fishes and orcses.
No, no. Not orcses, Precious.
They don't taste very nice.
Jonathan: Put it on your driver's license, your credit card. It is a great last minute gift for loved ones.
Jollum: We only loves Master.
Master looks out for us now.
We don't need you.
Laird Decker: So go to EstablishTitles.com/CinemaTherapy
and use our discount code Cinema10
to get 10% off and become a Laird or Lady.
Jollum: Pppfffftttt
Jonathan: Now, psychologically, Gollum... Well, actually Smeagol.
And he was, as Frodo says, not unlike a hobbit once, and we see that here.
He's a very hobbit-like creature. He's a simple country bumpkin.
He's fishing with his buddy. We have no indicators that he has a history of violence or any...
I mean, there may be Tolkien enthusiasts who could probably correct me
on a bunch of character beats or things that I'm going to say in this episode.
But the meat of it is Smeagol is a decent creature.
He sees the ring and the ring instantly looks into his heart and says, Oh, there's darkness here I can work with. Alan: Right.
Jonathan: There's greed or there's coveting, there's... you know, and so he wants it from his friend.
He asks for it. The friend doesn't give it to him, so he kills him. Alan: Mm hmm.
Jonathan: Now, I want you to imagine...
You're a decent person and you've done something terrible.
Which is true for a lot of us.
The sheer amount of guilt and shame and even trauma that comes from believing that you're good,
and having to square up to this terrible thing that you've done. Alan: Right.
Jonathan: So he's there and he's... you know, he's crying out because he's alone,
but he's also alone because people cursed him. They spat on him for being a murderer.
Gollum: Murderer they called us.
Jonathan: So there is a trauma here. There's the trauma of killing his best friend.
There's the trauma of being rejected and there's the trauma of living with what he's done.
Now, my read on this, as seen on screen, again, I don't know everything about the books,
is that Smeagol wants to believe in his own innocence. And so his brain is going to create another personality
to house all of his darkness and to take the blame for all of it.
So we're going to get a little bit into what that is as a diagnosis.
But first, let's just see it in action and then we'll talk about real life versus the movie.
Alan: All right.
So here we're going from Smeagols / Gollum's origin to...
Jonathan: The next time we see him chronologically.
Alan: Yeah, which is in The Hobbit.
Um, if you go by the book's timeline, this is... what, 70 or 80 years before the Lord of the Rings.
Jonathan: Mm hmm.
Alan: Something like that.
The movie timeline is a little bit squishier.
Jonathan: And hats off to Martin Freeman.
Alan: Always. In everything.
Gollum: Bless us and splash us, precious.
That's a meaty mouthful.
Gollum, Gollum.
Jonathan: This is 10 years later in filmmaking, and they came... they've already come so far in the quality of the makeup.
Alan: Yeah. Well, and it's, you know, it's not just the mo-cap. So in the original films...
Gollum: [...] it's not an Elfs.
Alan: Oh, he's talking.
He's talking to himself.
Well, he's... not to himself. He's talking to his other self. Jonathan: Yeah.
Gollum: What is it?
Jonathan: What is it?
Alan: Erm... But yeah, technically, what I find fascinating,
I love these behind the scenes stories.
James Cameron saw the Two Towers in theaters and went, Aha! CGI has progressed far enough
that I can make my movie about big blue aliens. Jonathan: Mm hmm.
Alan: And so he contacted a bunch of different visual effects houses
and started putting together Avatar and ended up going to...
Weta. So Weta did all of the digital work for the Na'vi in Avatar,
and they took all the stuff that they developed to make the Na'vi and applied it to Gollum version two.
Jonathan: Really?
Alan: So Gollum is his own grandfather.
Jonathan: That's awesome. That is a cool story. Alan: Yeah.
Smeagol: We know. We know safe paths for hobbitses
Alan: Also a plot of the Futurama episode.
Gollum: Shut up!
Bilbo: I didn't say anything.
Gollum: Wasn't talking to you.
Smeagol: Yes, we was, Precious. We was.
Bilbo: Look, I don't know what your game is, but I...
Smeagol: Games?! We love games! Doesn't we, Precious?
Jonathan: Alan, what are you munching on today?
Alan: It's just cinnamon.
The red ones are extra cinnamony, and um...
Jonathan: It's like hot cinnamon and regular cinnamon in one. Alan: Yes.
Jonathan: I've got Toffee Nut because it's Precious.
Alan: LisasPopcorn.com/CinemaTherapy.
Use our code [CTherapy],
do the subscription box order thing
where you get six flavors a month.
Jonathan: Yeah, monthly.
Alan: Watch your movies with popcorn.
Jonathan: I would diagnose Gollum / Smeagol with something called dissociative identity disorder. Alan: Right.
Jonathan: Used to be known as multiple personality disorder, but that's not a completely accurate description.
The reason it's called what it is now,
dissociation is to separate yourself from reality, right? Alan: Mm hmm.
Jonathan: And so in the wake of a trauma now, Smeagol's trauma is something he did himself, meaning... Alan: It's self-caused.
Jonathan: The ring egged him on, but he killed his best friend. Alan: Sure. Yeah.
Jonathan: Right? He... he basically sent himself into exile.
Most people who experience DID, it's a trauma... Alan: An external trauma.
Jonathan: It's an external trauma. Someone assaults them, someone abuses them.
There's some sort of natural disaster, some sort of tragedy.
You know, all sorts of things can happen and it's too terrifying. It's too sad.
It's too overwhelming. It's too traumatic. And so they dissociate.
And what that looks like, you have the core personality,
which is the original, which in this case is Smeagol. Alan: Mm hmm.
Jonathan: And Smeagol was, as I said before, an innocent hobbit-like creature,
who enjoyed fishing and hanging out with his buddy.
He became a murderer.
In order to retain his innocence, he creates subconsciously what's called an alter,
which is an alternate personality which houses his aggression. Alan: Aaah, ok.
Jonathan: Which houses his darkness, his greed. But it's also because Smeagol sees himself as
I'm alone in the wilderness. I'm going to starve. I need someone to take care of me.
Gollum also fulfills the role of taking care of him, this alter.
Gollum: It was me.
We survived because of me.
Jonathan: With DID... different personalities are created for different reasons.
Generally, following a trauma, and some people are saying that it's not even a real thing.
It's real, but what type of trauma causes it? Check out my Mended Light video right there.
And it's not a choice, and it's not performance. Alan: Right.
Jonathan: So I'll tell a little more about what DID looks like and how to work with it.
But let's keep looking at Gollum here. Gollum, Smeagol...
Gollum: Does it, does it, does it like to play?
Bilbo: Maybe.
Gollum: What has roots as nobody sees, is taller...
Jonathan: So Bilbo's looking so confused because he's never seen anything like...
Alan: Nothing like this.
Jonathan: ...Gollum, but he's threatening and malicious, and then he's sweet and playful and he can't quite...
Alan: And he's like a kid, basically. Jonathan: Yeah.
Gollum: Oh, let's have another one, eh?
Jonathan: Yeah, the core personality is very childlike.
Gollum: Do it again. Ask us.
No, no more riddles.
Jonathan: See, there's the switch.
Gollum: Finish him off. Finish him now. Gollum, Gollum.
Bilbo: No, no, no, no.
I want to play.
I do. I want to play. I can see...
Jonathan: And he switches from Gollum to Smeagol.
Bilbo: Why don't we have a game of riddles? Yes?
Just... just... just you and me.
Gollum: Yes, yes. Just... just... Just us.
Jonathan: Just the core.
Bilbo: Yes.
And if I win...
you show me the way out.
Yes?
Smeagol: Yes. Yes, we will.
Gollum: And if it loses? What then?
Smeagol: Well, if it loses, Precious, then we eats it.
If Baggins loses we eats it whole.
Bilbo: Fair enough.
Jonathan: Ok. Alan: Oh my gosh...
Martin Freeman's comedic timing is a work of art.
Like... Look, he's a great actor. He does drama really well. He does pathos.
He does all of these emotional things. That right there - the pause, the glance, pause again.
I'm going to... I'm not going to talk. Fair enough. Like...
Jonathan: So much in that...
Alan: Sooooo much! He tells you an entire story. And you actually get...
He takes one joke and stretches it into, like... You get at least two laughs out of it. Jonathan: Yeah.
Alan: Sometimes three, depending on who you're watching with, and it's so, so brilliant.
I'm just in awe of the man.
Jonathan: Well, and I love how he.. how he's kind of picking up,
Ok. There's two people in one body that I'm dealing with. Alan: Sure, yeah.
Jonathan: So when he's like, just just just us. Alan: Just us.
Jonathan: He's whispering, like... Alan: Just us...
Jonathan: Yeah, yeah
Alan: Sorry, I'm going to be slipping in and out of Smeagol / Gollum here a lot.
I'm surprised Jonathan hasn't done it, because he actually does it better than me.
He's one of the few people I know who does a better Gollum than me.
Jonathan: What if it loses, Precious? What then? Well, if it loses, then we eats it!
Internet Gollums: If the Baggins loses we eats it whole.
Jonathan: So... Anyways, what we're witnessing here is something called switching.
Alan: Oh. Well, that makes sense.
Jonathan: Right? Switching between the core and the alter. And in real life, it doesn't happen this fast.
Alan: Just like...
Jonathan: Yeah, generally... Or at least not the back and forth.
One switch can happen almost instantaneously or within a few seconds.
But what you don't see very often is like this type of conversational thing.
When you see someone talking to nobody and you think, Well, that's psychosis.
It's psychosis if they're hearing voices that you don't hear. Alan: Oh, ok.
Jonathan: Right? They're hearing things that you don't hear and they're responding things to that you don't see.
In the case of DID, what happens is Alan: We see, like...
Jonathan: You see all of it. Alan: Yeah, right, right, right.
Jonathan: You see all of it. All the... all the voices, all the mannerisms, all the personalities, they're playing up before you.
But again, usually they'll stay in one for minutes to hours, to even days in extreme cases and then switch back.
So in the case of Gollum / Smeagol, I've already talked a little bit about why Smeagol subconsciously created Gollum.
The only reason Smeagol can be so happy and childlike and innocent is because Gollum carries all the darkness. Alan: Right.
Jonathan: Because if it were just Smeagol in this case, he would have to deal with, I murdered my friend. I'm alone. Alan: Right. Yeah.
Jonathan: I'm, you know, all these terrible things. He's like, I'm not alone, I got a buddy.
Alan: I got a Gollum.
Jonathan: And he's kind of a jerk, but he's always there for me.
And if... and if things get dangerous. Yeah, things can get dangerous, then he'll kill the orcs.
Because I guara... Smeagol's not killing any orcs. Alan: Right.
Jonathan: Gollum is going to bash their brains in. Alan: Hmm.
Jonathan: I'll talk a little bit about how to actually treat and how to work through this sort of thing,
but let's keep going on this journey.
So, Bilbo slipped on the ring and he's trying to escape now, and...
Gollum is furious that he took the ring and he's trying to find him.
Alan: Well, he's contemplating leaving his cave, which he hasn't done in forever.
Jonathan: And now Bilbo's like, The exits blocked.
Alan: Yeah, this is more of a Bilbo character moment than a Gollum character moment.
Jonathan: I know.
Alan: It's so beautiful, there's no reason to skip it.
Jonathan: I'm going to tie it into our theme.
Alan: Oh, great. Jonathan: But...
Alan: Jonathan's good at this.
Jonathan: And you get that wonderful Howard Shore music here.
Pity is what state Bilbo's hand. See, this is what prequel should do.
The only reason to justify the existence of a prequel, artistically, is when you watch the originals,
they should mean more because the prequel exists. Alan: Yeah.
Jonathan: And The Hobbit doesn't stick that a lot of the time, but it does here.
Alan: Certainly does in that scene.
Jonathan: Because when... when Gandalf tells Frodo,
Frodo: It's a pity Bilbo didn't kill him, when he had the chance.
Gandalf: Pity? It was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand.
The pity of Bilbo may rule fate of many.
Jonathan: And you have this moment. It hits even harder. Alan: Great.
Jonathan: Yeah. Alan: Really great.
Jonathan: So, the reason I want to have that scene is because people with dissociative identity disorder,
the reason they have it is they've been through hell.
The reason they've had it is they've been through something that the rest of us can barely contemplate.
And the thing about trauma, every brain deals with it differently.
But in their case, the way it's handling it is to create these other personalities, to help them to feel safe,
to help them get their needs met, to help them to protect themselves, or to not feel alone, or a myriad of other reasons.
And pity is such a condescending word, but I mean compassion. These people deserve pity. They deserve compassion.
They deserve understanding, not judgment, not 'Stop putting on an act'. Not, you know, it really...
Understanding leads to compassion and compassion leads to healing,
which is what we're going to see here in just a second.
So this whole bit I did in college and I won the college talent show for doing this entire scene, just me.
Did not get me a girlfriend.
Alan: Well, funny how that works.
Gollum: Sneaky little hobbitses.
Wicked, tricksy, false.
Smeagol: No, not Master.
Gollum: Yes, Precious. False.
They will cheat you, hurt you, lie.
Smeagol: Master's my friend
Alan: I love that those first two switches are done in one shot, panning back and forth,
and then it's just cuts to make it feel more like a conversation.
Smeagol: Not listening. I just.
Gollum: You're a liar and a thief
Jonathan: Do you remember being in the theater for Two Towers?
You could hear a pin drop. Alan: Oh yeah.
Gollum: Murderer.
Alan: I mean, this scene is still one of the most just arresting dialog scenes ever.
And it's one computer generated character playing two roles. Jonathan: Yeah.
Gollum: Gollum, Gollum. I saved us.
It was me.
We survived because of me.
Jonathan: This is everything right here.
Smeagol: Not anymore.
Gollum: What did you say?
Smeagol: Master looks after us now.
We don't need you.
Gollum: What?
Smeagol: Leave now and never come back.
Gollum: No.
Smeagol: Leave now and never come back.
Gollum: Aaarrghh
Smeagol: Leave now and never come back!
Jonathan: And he did.
I love how he looks around for him.
Alan: It's such a great bit of performance.
Smeagol: We told him to go away,
and away he goes, Precious.
Gone, gone, gone. Smeagol is free!
Jonathan: One thing I want to say just as a movie fan,
and someone who doesn't know nearly as much as you do about the creation.
Jaws.
The shark looks fake as hell. Alan: Yep.
Jonathan: And if you watch individual scenes from Jaws with the shark, you're like, this is so cheesy.
If you sit down and watch Jaws, you're terrified.
Alan: Absolutely petrified.
Jonathan: And E.T. is clearly a little puppet. Alan: Right?
Jonathan: Like, I can see the CG character versus the plate backdrop, you know.
Like, I can see that happening.
And it doesn't matter.
Alan: Doesn't matter at all.
Jonathan: Effects age.
Alan: And that's, you know, the magic of storytelling.
The magic of movies is we all go into a dark room with a bunch of strangers,
and we collectively agree we're going to believe this make-believe puppet show... Jonathan: Mm hmm.
Alan: ...for the next two hours. I love that. I lo... Like, on a deep philosophical emotional level,
I think it's incredibly important for people to connect across, like...
I mean, when else do we do this in our lives?
When else do we go with a group of people we have no idea who they are and we all share an emotional experience?
Jonathan: I especially like... I don't like scary movies home alone.
I love scary movies in a packed theater because everyone screams...
Alan: Everyone screams at the same time.
Jonathan: And then everyone laughs that they all screamed at the same time.
Alan: And you go out and everybody's talking about the same scenes,
and you just have this shared communal experience. Jonathan: Yeah.
Alan: These 400 people get it. Jonathan: Yeah, right.
Alan: We all just went through the same stuff.
Jonathan: Yeah, yeah. So let's talk about healing from DID because there is no known cure to make it go away entirely.
But you can manage the symptoms basically to the point of nonexistence. Alan: Oh, ok.
Jonathan: For some people it's hypnotherapy. For others, it's talk therapy. But generally...
Well, almost universally I would say, the roles that the alters are fulfilling,
if the core learns to fill them themselves in a healthy way, because the alters usually do it in an unhealthy way. Alan: Sure.
Jonathan: If the core learns to fulfill them in a healthy way, the alters just kind of go away.
And we see that in this scene when he's like, Master looks after us now. We don't need you now.
Smeagol has, instead of empowering himself and working through his trauma and working through his guilt,
and... and, you know, vowing to be a better person and to, you know, to make things right as best he can.
Instead of doing that work, he's just latched on to somebody else to be his caretaker.
Alan: Is that just transference basically?
Jonathan: Yeah, he's transferring it from Gollum to Frodo.
But Gollum is not that far in the rearview mirror yet. Alan: Sure.
Jonathan: Which is why when Frodo betrays him... I mean, he doesn't. But when Frodo...
he thinks Frodo betrays him Gollum...
Alan: Snaps right back.
Jonathan: Snaps right back. Alan: Yeah.
Smeagol: Master tricksed us.
Gollum: Of course he did.
Jonathan: In the case of Smeagol, Frodo is kind to him, is compassionate to him,
which literally no one has done since he killed Deagol.
And when Frodo treats him, you know, with humanity, he has hope for himself for the first time,
and he believes in himself for the first time in a long time.
Now, we love Sam. Sam is arguably the hero of Lord of the Rings.
Sam's great flaw is how he treats Smeagol.
Frodo: Why do you do that?
Samwise: What?
Frodo: Call him names. Run him down all the time.
Samwise: There's not left in him, but lies and deceit.
You can't save him, Mr. Frodo.
Jonathan: If Frodo and Sam were united in welcoming Smeagol in...
Alan: This has been the debate among Tolkien fans, you know, since the book was released. Jonathan: Yeah.
Alan: Basically, like, did... did Sam bring Gollum back
Jonathan: Through his lack of compassion and his fear of him. Look, and Sam had reason to be wary.
There is a creature that coveted the ring that has already killed for the ring.
Like, I get it, but we'll never know.
But I do know that in real life, when you have a united support of people who believe in you and don't judge you,
that healing or management of symptoms to the point of almost nonexistence is within your reach. Alan: Sure.
Jonathan: A very real thing.
Alan: I learned a lot of things that I did not know about dissociative identity disorder.
I honestly didn't know that that's what it was called. I was still calling it multiple personality disorder.
Incredible character. Incredible story.
Again, one of my favorite movie villains of all time because he's so tragic and because his performance is so amazing
and he's in my favorite films of all time, The Lord of The Rings movies.
Jonathan: If you enjoy what we're doing, please like, subscribe, click the bell. Alan: Mm hmm.
Jonathan: We wants it. We needs it. Needs the new videos, Precious.
You want to see them, click on the freaking bell.
Alan: Give us your notifications.
So until next time...
Jonathan: Up, up, up, up the stars we go and then take it for meeeeeeeee!
Alan: We lied...
Internet Gollums: And...
Internet Gollums: Watch moviesss
Alan: This is the dumbest one we've done.
Jonathan: Relax, it is delicious.
Alan: We loves it.
Frodo: You swore! You swore on the Precious.
Smeagol promised.
Gollum: Smeagol lied.