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  • - What's your opinion on my bird here, Mr. Parrot?

  • - It's a macaw, scarlet macaw.

  • - What? - It is a scarlet macaw.

  • - Oh. You know birds? - Yeah.

  • And that's actually not life sized.

  • - Are you saying he's not real?

  • - I'm saying it's not to scale.

  • - Okay. But he's real.

  • - Are we doing that Monty Python sketch?

  • (both laughing)

  • - Everything is a Monty Python sketch.

  • - I don't think Monty Python's funny.

  • And I- - You don't?

  • - At all, like, not- - That explains so much.

  • - Does it? What does it explain?

  • - What do you think is funny?

  • - (laughs) But you not answering that question,

  • it's pretty funny.

  • - Yeah.

  • What do you think is funny? Having a mantis shrimp?

  • - No.

  • - Do you think "Big Lebowski" is funny?

  • - Oh God, no.

  • - (laughs) This is getting worse and worse.

  • The following is a conversation

  • with Michael Malice, anarchist and author

  • of "Dear Reader", "The New Right", "The Anarchist Handbook",

  • "The White Pill", and he is the host

  • of the podcast "YOUR WELCOME".

  • This is a Thanksgiving special of the pirate

  • and oceangoing variety.

  • So once again, let me say thank you for listening today

  • and for being part of this wild journey with me.

  • This is the Lex Friedman Podcast.

  • To support it, please check out our sponsors

  • in the description.

  • And now, dear friends, here's Michael Malice.

  • - The box?

  • - Yeah. - The mystery box.

  • - I'm wondering what's in it.

  • - There's something in that box of exquisite beauty,

  • both literally and in what it symbolizes and why it is here.

  • - Given the kind of human being you are,

  • I'm terrified at what you find beautiful.

  • - That's a good point.

  • You kind of hit me with the curve ball.

  • - Yeah. - Like for me,

  • the most beautiful like wildlife

  • are what I call God's mistakes.

  • 'Cause my friend came up with that term

  • where she's like, you know,

  • God made these disgusting animals, just threw

  • in the bottom of the ocean.

  • He is like, no one's ever gonna see this.

  • - Yeah.

  • You commented on Twitter about some creature,

  • like a rainbow type creature.

  • - The peacock mantis shrimp. - Yeah. It's beautiful.

  • - It's horrific though.

  • So it has, I think, eight legs, six arms,

  • two punching claws or spearing claws,

  • depending on the genus, two eyes, two antennae,

  • two ear flaps, I dunno what they do...

  • And its punch can be as strong as a bullet.

  • And the other type

  • what the spears, divers call them thumb splitters,

  • because if you stick your finger near it,

  • it'll cut your thumb down to the bone.

  • So I had one as a pet.

  • All night I would hear banging on the PVC pipe.

  • And I gotta tell you,

  • they have the best eyesight of any animal 'cause they see

  • in like seven different ways.

  • And when you make eye contact with this thing,

  • it's just absolutely terrifying.

  • But you can eat them as sushi, they call 'em sea centipedes.

  • - [Lex] But they're colorful and beautiful.

  • - [Michael] That's species is. Yeah.

  • - What was it like having one as a pet,

  • and why did you do it?

  • - Well, when you have a species that's that unique

  • and that much of an outlier, you know,

  • growing up reading these books, watching these shows,

  • I found this stuff so much more fascinating

  • than like space and which is, you know, dead.

  • So to be able to have this specimen in your house

  • and just observe its behavior is just like an amazing thing.

  • - Why'd you get rid of it?

  • - I didn't have, I guess, the right minerals in the mix...

  • - It died?

  • - It had a problem molting once.

  • Yeah. They couldn't molt correctly.

  • - Wow.

  • Do you miss it? Think about it, still?

  • - I do think about it to be honest.

  • I still have a pair of

  • its punching appendages from when it molted.

  • - What pet animal in your life do you miss the most,

  • that has been in your life, that you think about?

  • - I've never had cats or dogs growing up

  • or anything like that, which, you know, I, oh God.

  • My problem is... - Here we go.

  • - If I like something, I will go down a rabbit hole.

  • - Yeah.

  • - So I know, if I got one tattoo,

  • I already know my first five are gonna be, okay?

  • So I can't do it.

  • 'Cause then, once I get those five,

  • it's gonna be 100 and I'm already too old to be

  • the tattoo guy.

  • - What would be the first tattoo?

  • My face?

  • Would it go on your ass cheeks?

  • Or where would you put them? If it was my face.

  • - If I got your face,

  • it would definitely be on my arm right here.

  • - If you had multiple faces, would you put like...

  • - I think delts, right, shoulders,

  • different faces on different shoulders?

  • - And then when you... - The symmetry.

  • - Yeah. Would you get a dictator?

  • If you had to get a dictator, who would you get?

  • - Have to be the Kim Jong Il, right?

  • - [Lex] Hmm.

  • - Because I wrote the book on him.

  • - Oh. It's like the plugging your book.

  • In the tattoo. - Don't think plugging.

  • It's just like I have a personal connection to this stuff.

  • - It good opener to this conversation.

  • But he would be asking why him,

  • and then he'd be like, well, I wrote a book about it.

  • He'd be like, okay,...

  • - Okay. Here, here's why. - Check it out.

  • - That would be a bad open.

  • No, that's not what happens. - Okay.

  • - Here's the thing. - What happens?

  • - When you write a book about North...

  • "Hey, nice to meet you. What is you do?"

  • "I'm an author." "What kind of books do you write?"

  • "Well, my last book was on North Korea."

  • 90% of the time. 90.

  • They will then start telling me everything they know

  • about North Korea.

  • And it's like, I don't need, this isn't a quiz.

  • And it's a very poorly understood country.

  • I don't expect you to know anything. You're not on the spot.

  • And half what you're saying is not accurate either.

  • It's fine.

  • - How often did they bring up Dennis Rodman?

  • - 100%.

  • - 100% of the time?

  • - Oh, so do you know Dennis Rodman?

  • - Yeah. - But I don't understand what,

  • I guess people feel the need to like, all right,

  • like now we're talking about this subject.

  • I just gotta, you know, drop whatever I can talk about.

  • It's usually a small amount.

  • And there's this thing in the culture, which I hate,

  • that everyone have to have an opinion on everything.

  • And it's like, it's okay to be like, yeah,

  • I don't know anything about that. Tell me more.

  • You know, there's lots of things

  • I don't know anything about.

  • - What's your opinion on my bird here, Mr. Parrot?

  • - It's a macaw, scarlet macaw.

  • - What? - It is a scarlet macaw.

  • - Oh. You know birds? - Yeah.

  • And that's actually not life sized.

  • - Are you saying he's not real?

  • - I'm saying it's not to scale.

  • - Okay. But he's real.

  • - Are we doing that Monty Python sketch?

  • (both laughing)

  • - Everything is a Monty Python sketch.

  • - I don't think Monty Python's funny.

  • And I- - You don't?

  • - At all, like, not- - That explains so much.

  • - Does it? What does it explain?

  • - What do you think is funny?

  • (Michael laughing)

  • - But you not answering that question, it's pretty funny.

  • - Yeah.

  • What do you think is funny? Having a mantis shrimp?

  • - No.

  • - Do you think "Big Lebowski" is funny?

  • - Oh God, no.

  • Although...

  • - This is getting worse and worse.

  • - To be fair... - Yep.

  • - I only tried to watch "Big Lebowski" after

  • it's been part of the culture for many years.

  • - [Lex] Right.

  • - To the point where every single line

  • has been quoted incessantly

  • by the most annoying frat bros ever.

  • - [Lex] Yeah.

  • - So I kind of have been poisoned to be able

  • to appreciate it.

  • - [Lex] Right.

  • - So maybe if I'd seen it when it came out,

  • before it became a thing, I would've enjoyed it.

  • I couldn't get through it.

  • Like I couldn't get through 20 minutes.

  • - Is that how you feel about "Schindler's List"?

  • - Well...

  • - It's so much easier for me to stare at you when you

  • have sunglasses on.

  • - I didn't think you'd be

  • the one making Holocaust jokes today.

  • (Lex laughing) And yet here we are.

  • - And, cut scene.

  • I actually have like no trouble making eye contact with you

  • when you're wearing shades.

  • - Yes. 'Cause you're a robot.

  • - Two copies of myself. - Yeah.

  • Oh, you're seeing yourself in them?

  • - Mhm. - Okay, cool.

  • - Yeah, I'm having a conversation with myself.

  • It's not your fault, Lex.

  • - (laughs) They made you like this.

  • You were just a good little robot in St. Petersburg.

  • - I could see Mr. Parrot a little bit too.

  • - But what do you find funny?

  • Come on, this is an interesting subject.

  • - Well, I find Monty Python, I find absurdity funny.

  • - Yes. I find absurdity funny.

  • I think that's the thing, when people come at me,

  • and maybe this is an Eastern European thing.

  • - Yeah. - When they're like,

  • how can you find this like very dark subject funny?

  • It's like, well, the humor, first of all,

  • the humor is

  • that you're making fun of something that's dark.

  • So already it's absurd. Like it's completely inappropriate.

  • Second, just psychologically, you know,

  • Joan Rivers said that Winston Churchill said,

  • I don't know if it's true,

  • that when you make people laugh,

  • you're giving them a little vacation.

  • And I was just thinking about this the other day,

  • how when I die, if, I want my funeral to be a roast.

  • - [Lex] Yeah.

  • - It doesn't help me that everyone's sad.

  • If I brought people happiness or joy in life, whatever.

  • I wanna keep doing that in death.

  • Your sadness doesn't help me.

  • I know you can't help it,

  • but tell stories of how it made you laugh.

  • Make fun of me. Make me the punching bag.

  • Even literally take me outta that coffin and beat the...

  • I don't, make me a pinata. I don't care.

  • So I think, and it's I don't understand, well,

  • I do understand, but it's sad for me when people

  • are like, you know, this isn't funny.

  • That isn't funny.

  • The way I look at humor is the way it's like a chef, right?

  • It's pretty easy to make bacon taste good.

  • But some of these really obscure ingredients,

  • to make it palatable, that's takes skill.

  • So if you're dealing with a subject

  • that is very emotional or intense

  • and you can make people laugh, then that takes skill.

  • And that's the relief for them.

  • - Yeah. It's all about timing.

  • - Yeah. - Yeah.

  • - [Michael] What's the difference,

  • you wanna hear one of my jokes?

  • - Is it a pirate joke?

  • Because that's the only kind I accept today.

  • But no, go ahead.

  • It doesn't have to be a pirate joke this one time.

  • - Do you know who Lia Thomas is?

  • - [Lex] Yeah.

  • - What's difference between Lia Thomas and Hitler?

  • - What?

  • - Lia Thomas knows how to finish a race.

  • - Very nice. Very nice.

  • - Did I just get the gold medal?

  • Good job.

  • - Why does it take pirates forever to get

  • through the alphabet?

  • - Why?

  • - Because they spent years at C.

  • - Oh, I thought it was gonna be an arr joke.

  • - Nope. - That's a good one.

  • I like that. - Yeah.

  • - When I was in North Korea-

  • - (laughs) Oh, you know Dennis Rodman?

  • It's a callback.

  • - By the way, the thing that is very heartbreaking

  • about the North Korean situation is that they

  • have a great sense of humor.

  • It would be

  • a lot easier if these were like robots or drones.

  • They have big personalities, big senses of humor.

  • And that made it much harder to leave and interact

  • with these people.

  • 'Cause I mean,

  • there's nothing more human and universal than laughter

  • and laughter's free.

  • - Are you're saying there's humor even amongst

  • the people that have most of their freedoms taken away?

  • - Especially, I mean, again, we're from, you know,

  • the Soviet Union.

  • Like, there's anekdoty.

  • Russian humor is a thing because there's nothing you can...

  • If you can't have food or nice things,

  • at least you can have joy and make each other laugh.

  • I think about it all the time.

  • And I think about my guide all the time.

  • It's been, what, 2012?

  • So it's been 11 years since I've been there.

  • And she's still there.

  • And everyone I've seen is still there.

  • They just recently electrified the border,

  • so even the few people

  • who are escaping can't do it any more.

  • - Well, that's interesting

  • that they still have a sense of humor.

  • I attribute the Soviet Union

  • for having that

  • because of the like really deep education system.

  • Like you got to read a lot of literature.

  • - Okay. - And because of that,

  • you get to kind of learn about the cruelty,

  • the injustices, the absurdity of the world.

  • - [Michael] Right.

  • - As long as the writing is not about the current regime.

  • - Yeah.

  • But I think like, if you look

  • at like African Americans, Jewish Americans, gay Americans,

  • they are all disproportionate

  • in terms of attributing to comedy.

  • It's not 'cause these groups

  • have some kind of, you know, magic to them.

  • It's that when you are on the outside looking in, A,

  • you're gonna have different perspective than the people

  • who are in the middle of the bell curve.

  • But also, when you don't have anything to lose,

  • at the very least you can make each other laugh

  • and find happiness that way.

  • So, you know, that is something that I think

  • is an important thing to recognize.

  • - So what do you find funny?

  • What makes you giggle like in the most joyful of ways?

  • The suffering of others?

  • - I mean, there are YouTube videos

  • of like fat people falling down,

  • and they're really funny.

  • - There's two kinds of people in this world.

  • Those that laugh at those videos and those that don't.

  • - No. And those that are in them. (laughs)

  • My friend Jesse just told me a great Norm Macdonald joke.

  • And this is a good litmus test joke.

  • 'Cause he says, a certain group of people lose

  • their minds and a certain group of people just stare at you.

  • And he goes, and so I'll tell you the joke.

  • This is Norm Macdonald.

  • A guy walks into a bar and he sees someone at the bar

  • who has a big pumpkin for a head.

  • And the guy's like, "Dude, what happened to you?"

  • He goes, "Ugh, you never believe this.

  • I got one of those genie lamps and this genie..."

  • He's like, "Well, what happened?"

  • He goes, "Well, the first wish, you know,

  • I wished for $100 million."

  • He's like, "Yeah, did you get it?"

  • He goes, "Yeah.

  • It goes in my bank account, feels fine."

  • He goes, "All right."

  • "Well, the second wish,

  • I wish to have sex as many beautiful women as I want."

  • He goes, "Did that happen?"

  • He goes, "Yeah, it was amazing."

  • He goes, "Then what?"

  • Well, "I wished for a giant pumpkin head."

  • - (laughs) Yeah.

  • - So there's a certain mindset that will just be staring

  • at the screen.

  • And that is, I mean,

  • there's so many levels why that's funny, at least to me.

  • And I just love that kind of...

  • - Well, Norm Macdonald is like just,

  • I watch his videos all time.

  • He's a guy that definitely makes me giggle.

  • And he's one of the people that makes me giggle

  • for reasons I don't quite understand.

  • - Did you ever see him with Carrot Top on Conan O'Brien?

  • - No. - Making fun of Carrot Top?

  • - [Lex] No.

  • - This is probably the best talk show clip of all time.

  • He's on with Courtney Thorne-Smith.

  • She was on "Melrose Place" and Coen O'Brien's the host.

  • And Courtney's talking about how she's gonna be

  • an upcoming movie with Carrot Top.

  • And Coen is like, "Oh, what's it gonna be called?"

  • And she's like, "Doesn't have a title yet."

  • And Norm goes, "Oh, I know what should be called,

  • box office poison."

  • And they're all laughing and she's like, no, no, no.

  • Like the working title is "Chairman of the Board."

  • And Conan goes, "Do something with that, smartass."

  • And Norm goes, "Yeah, board is spelled B-O-R-E-D."

  • And they all just completely lost it.

  • - There's something about him with words spoken out

  • of his mouth with the way he like turns his head

  • and looks at the camera...

  • - I think he is one of those rare comedians

  • who you really feel like he's talking to you directly.

  • - Yeah. - He feels like

  • he's winking at you- - Yeah.

  • - In the audience.

  • And he is like, can you believe I'm doing this?

  • Like it's like he almost, he feels like he's,

  • I don't wanna say imposter,

  • but like he's more a member of the audience than he's

  • a member of the people on the stage.

  • - Yeah. It feels like he's on our side.

  • - [Michael] Yes. Yeah.

  • - Whatever the hell our means.

  • - You know Roseanne got him his first job?

  • - Man, Roseanne, you and her been hanging out.

  • - I got it.

  • Oh my God Talk about Thanksgiving.

  • When you are talking to Roseanne Barr

  • and making eye contact with this person...

  • It is, I can't even describe it.

  • It's just like, holy crap, Roseanne Barr's talking to me.

  • She is, I've said this to her face, pathologically funny.

  • Like it does not turn off.

  • And you're sitting there and you're like, holy crap.

  • And when you make her laugh,

  • which is that laugh that's in the theme song

  • of her show, you feel like, okay, I did a mitzvah,

  • I did something good and right in the world

  • that I made Roseanne Barr laugh.

  • And it's also really funny because,

  • and she's gonna hate this,

  • 'cause I tell her she's adorable, she doesn't like that.

  • She's little.

  • You think of Roseanne Barr as this like force

  • of nature, like a tsunami.

  • She's like five three I'd say like maybe 130.

  • Like, and she puts on the sunglasses,

  • you think this little old Jewish lady, you'd never know,

  • this is one of the most epic performers of all time.

  • She lives near here now.

  • So it's just so much fun talking to her.

  • There was an old satirical magazine in the,

  • I think like early 2000s called Heeb, written by Jews.

  • And she dressed up as Hitler for one of the photo shoots

  • and she was baking little men in the oven.

  • - Oh. - I got, I found on eBay.

  • I wanted her to sign it, "To Michael,

  • it should have been you."

  • But she signed it, "To Michael, you're one smart cookie."

  • And now it hangs, "Love, mom, Roseanne Barr."

  • And I call her mom. And it hangs over my desk.

  • 'Cause I have her like good

  • domestic goddess energy flowing at me.

  • What?

  • - What do you find...

  • What else? So Norm McDonald, Norm-

  • - My favorite comedian is- - We agree on something.

  • - My favorite comedian of all time is Neil Hamburger.

  • So Neil Hamburger, I don't know if I'm ruining the bit,

  • he's a character performed

  • by this guy named Gregg Turkington.

  • So he comes out in a tuxedo,

  • big eyeglasses holding three glasses of water,

  • (coughs) coughing into the mic.

  • And I remember I saw him once in LA and the girl ahead

  • of me at the table ahead of me was with her boyfriend,

  • this basic chick pumpkin spice.

  • She turns to him and she goes, "What is this?"

  • And I remember the first time he was on Jimmy Kimmel,

  • and he tells one of his jokes and it was like,

  • "Why does ET like Reese's Pieces so much?

  • Well that's what sperm tastes like on his home planet."

  • And like no one laughs. And he goes, "Oh, come on, guys.

  • I have cancer."

  • (both laughing)

  • And it just cuts to this marine in the audience

  • with his arms crossed.

  • So if you know what he's doing,

  • it's just absolutely amazing.

  • He opened for Tenacious D once in somewhere I think

  • in Ireland or the UK, one of those.

  • And they're booing him 'cause his jokes are often not funny.

  • He's like, "Hey, where did my whore ex-wife run off to

  • with that dentist she's shacking up with?

  • I don't know,

  • but when I see her in court next month, Alaska!"

  • So they're booing and he goes, "All right,

  • do you guys want me to bring out Tenacious D?"

  • They're like, "Yeah!"

  • "Do you wanna see your heroes and mine, Tenacious D?"

  • "Yeah."

  • "Come on, let me hear it.

  • Do you wanna see Tenacious D?"

  • "Yeah."

  • He goes, "All right,

  • if I tell this next joke and you don't boo me,

  • I'll bring out Tenacious D."

  • And it's like, I'm trying to think of one that's not too...

  • - Self censorship is never good.

  • - Okay.

  • He goes, "Can we agree that George Bush

  • is the worst President America's ever had?"

  • Everyone claps.

  • He goes, "Which makes it all the stranger

  • that his son, George W. Bush, was in fact the best."

  • - I take it back on the self censorship.

  • - (laughs) So two people laugh and he goes,

  • "Oh, that's amazing.

  • I guess I'll do an encore." And he did 10 more minutes.

  • It was just like, I love him so much.

  • - It's interesting he opened for Tenacious D.

  • Jack Black, that's a comedic genius of a different kind.

  • - Oh yeah.

  • And he was in one of my favorite movies, "Jesus' Son",

  • it's this little indie movie.

  • He did a great turn in that.

  • He's really underrated as an actor. He's got a lot of range.

  • Like I know they kind of kinda get typecast

  • as this kind of one specific type,

  • but he's really, really talented.

  • - But also just like the pure joy.

  • - Yes. He's clearly having fun.

  • - Okay. It is Thanksgiving.

  • So in the tradition, following tradition,

  • what are you thankful for, Michael, in this world?

  • - I got... Do you have a list too?

  • - No, not really. - Really?

  • - It's up in here. - Oh, I mean,

  • but you have several things you're thankful for?

  • - Yes. - Okay.

  • - Yes. - One of the things I'm-

  • - My list comes from the heart.

  • I don't have to write anything down.

  • - [Michael] Well, I don't have written down.

  • - Okay.

  • - One of the things that I'm most thankful for,

  • this is a common answer, but I can back it up, is my family.

  • Because my nephew Lucas is now six years old, and he,

  • when kids have a sense of humor, it's like just miraculous.

  • So he stole my sister's phone, his mom,

  • figured out that grandma is listed as mom in the phone.

  • And he calls her up and he's like,

  • "Michael's in the hospital, he's really sick.

  • He didn't wanna tell you." And she's freaking out.

  • He goes, prank!

  • So I took him, Dinesh D'Souza just released

  • a movie called "Police State",

  • which was actually really good, highly recommend it.

  • I was surprised how much I liked it there.

  • 'Cause he wasn't going Republicans good, Democrats bad.

  • It was just about authoritarianism.

  • And he had a movie premiere at Mar-a-Lago.

  • So I'm like, I gotta bring Lucas to Mar-a-Lago.

  • So Lucas is, I'm like, we're going to the President's house.

  • He's like, "Oh, the White House?"

  • And I'm like, no, like a former president.

  • He goes, oh, "Abe Lincoln?"

  • And I'm like, okay, kid logic,

  • like he's giving logical answers.

  • This is kinda like AI, you have to program it to,

  • it's using logic correctly.

  • - You should have told him is a president that's second

  • to only Abe Lincoln in terms of greatness.

  • - Accomplishments. Yeah.

  • He went up to all the women

  • in their ball gown, you know, evening gowns.

  • And he goes, "You're so beautiful. Were you born as a girl?"

  • So when you have this six year old asking you this,

  • it was really, really fun.

  • So that is a great joy to have a nephew,

  • and I have another one, Zach,

  • who's coming up in age and he's starting to talk now.

  • That is really, really fun for me.

  • - Getting to watch them, you know,

  • find out about the world for the first time.

  • - And also training them.

  • Like, that he loves being funny and having fun.

  • - You're his audience in a sense.

  • - Yeah... But- - 'Cause you giggle and...

  • - We're prank bro's, he gives me a high five.

  • My family...

  • And this is one of... You talk about what I find funny.

  • This is things that actually enrage me.

  • When people, and this is such a WASP thing,

  • don't just go with the joke or they're like,

  • I don't get it, or they don't understand to just go with it.

  • I was in the car with my sister

  • when she was like 10, 12, whatever.

  • She's much younger than me. She's like 12 years younger.

  • And there's this species of squid, by the way,

  • which is asymmetric, one of its eyes

  • is very much bigger than the other,

  • 'cause it swims horizontally, and so one's looking up,

  • one's looking down where there's more light.

  • Shout out, if you wanna learn more about squids,

  • go to octonation.com. - Octonation. Shout out.

  • - Shout to Warren.

  • - There's a lot of fascinating stuff.

  • Octonation on Instagram.

  • - Yes.

  • I was in the car with my sister.

  • She's like 10 or- - Me as a pirate.

  • I'm sorry for the rude interruptions.

  • I appreciate that count, especially.

  • - Yeah, it's a great, yeah.

  • - These jokes and thoughts are coming to me at a,

  • like a 10 second delay, so I apologize.

  • - Okay.

  • - Anyway, you were telling about the...

  • - I know where I- - Asymmetrical. All right.

  • - So I tell my- - Sometimes you need help.

  • - No. - The age is getting to you.

  • - (laughs) I was... - Your skin is showing it.

  • It's getting dark.

  • - I told my sister, I go, when you were born,

  • one of your eyes was bigger than the other and you

  • had to have surgery to fix it.

  • So she turns, she's like, "Mom!"

  • And my mom goes, "Honey,

  • the important thing is

  • that you're beautiful now, that's all..."

  • It's like, what's the big deal?

  • It was just a little surgery.

  • And I says like, all right, calls grandma.

  • And grandma goes, she goes,

  • "Michael said that I was born one of the eyes..."

  • She goes, why is he telling you this now?

  • It's not a big deal. You were...

  • So the fact that everyone went with this...

  • - Oh... - I was so impressed.

  • I was like, this is a quality family

  • in this very specific regard.

  • Does your family have a sense of humor?

  • - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

  • Yeah. Yeah.

  • - Yeah. - You know, Soviet culture,

  • there's like a dark sense of humor.

  • - Very much so. - There's...

  • - Word play. - Word play.

  • (laughs) Yeah. Yeah.

  • And especially the Russian language allows

  • for some like hilarity to it.

  • There's also culture of like poetry and like my dad,

  • my mom too,

  • but they remember a lot of lines from books and poems.

  • So there's just, you can do a lot

  • of fascinating references that add to the humor

  • and the richness of the conversation.

  • - I feel like that's a very Russian thing.

  • Like at a party or maybe at a bar or something,

  • I don't know where you'd meet people.

  • These are such great ice- - Go out.

  • - I meant in Russia, I meant,

  • these would be such good icebreakers, right?

  • You go up to someone goes, hey,

  • did you hear this one anekdot?

  • And you just tell him some little story.

  • - Did you say icebreakers 'cause it's cold in Russia?

  • (Michael laughing)

  • I'm here all night.

  • - That's true. You never leave the house.

  • - Literally. - So...

  • I feel like that's a thing.

  • - [Lex] Yeah.

  • - And that's not a thing in America.

  • - [Lex] You mean like witty banter?

  • - No.

  • Meaning you go up to stranger and like

  • that's your icebreaker.

  • You tell 'em this little joke.

  • And since everyone kinda

  • has the same sensibilities, right away,

  • you guys are chatting.

  • I don't think that's a thing here.

  • - [Lex] Yeah.

  • - Think here it's more small talk, which drives me crazy.

  • - So what else are you thankful for?

  • - Well, what's something you're thankful for?

  • - Well, you went with family.

  • I'm definitely thankful for family.

  • - Okay. - Yeah.

  • - How, if I may ask, how do they react to you?

  • Like, you're sitting down with Elon,

  • you're sitting out with Netanyahu,

  • you're sitting down with all these like big, with Kanye,

  • all these big names.

  • Are they expressing that they're proud of you?

  • Or is it more like, why haven't you talked to this person?

  • - (laughs) Yeah. More Michael Malice, please.

  • - (laughs) The people's choice.

  • - Yeah.

  • Yeah. They're very proud.

  • They've been very, I mean,

  • but they get argumentative and we just,

  • they're just like a regular human being

  • with whom I'm close and we just argue about stuff.

  • They're not, maybe not enough show the being proud of,

  • but that part is just the nature of our relationship.

  • It's also Soviet parents.

  • - Yeah. I don't talk to my dad.

  • That's one of the reasons,

  • 'cause there's never ever any good job.

  • And at a certain point it's like, why am I trying

  • to search for approval from someone

  • I'm never gonna get it for?

  • And from who it wouldn't mean anything at this point anyway.

  • - Well, that's interesting.

  • I mean, there's a journey like that for a lot of people

  • with their father or with their mother.

  • Like they're always trying to find approval.

  • And that's life for a lot of people.

  • - [Michael] Yeah.

  • - That's a really big part of the human condition

  • is that relationship you have with your father,

  • with your mother.

  • I don't know, it's a beautiful thing.

  • So it's, whether it's been a rough childhood

  • or a beautiful one, all of it, that's who you are.

  • Like that, the relationship,

  • especially early on in your life with your father,

  • with your mother, is like extremely formative.

  • - Yeah, my dad taught me a lot of things at a young age

  • that I'm very, very grateful for.

  • He's extremely intelligent, very flawed.

  • And that's fine. We all are, except for me.

  • And it's the kind of things that when you learn things

  • at a right age,

  • and this is one of the things I like about being older,

  • is that when I'm friends with people-

  • - Much older. - Much older, when I'm...

  • But much, much older,

  • When I have friends who are younger,

  • it's very easy for me to keep them from making

  • the mistakes I did.

  • So at least this is something I'm getting out of it

  • is that, okay, I can't fix these mistakes,

  • but it just takes me 30 seconds and I can pull you back

  • from making the mistake.

  • So he taught me a lot as a kid.

  • He really encouraged me very much to,

  • he has a very good sense of humor and also very bad

  • in some ways.

  • Dad jokes, but also really funny jokes.

  • But also this love of learning that I got that from him.

  • And I mean, I have got literally right now 98 books

  • on my shelf to read.

  • It's just a life...

  • That makes me, I remember I had a friend and she ran

  • into someone she went to high school

  • with and he stopped you on the train

  • and he is like, yo, you're not in college.

  • You don't need to read books any more.

  • And I was just like horrified to hear this.

  • - Yeah.

  • Yeah. Boy, don't I know it.

  • - I mean, you do laugh, but like,

  • there's a lot of things I don't understand.

  • When you got heat for like,

  • I wanna read the Western classics, to me,

  • that might've been like the internet at its absolute worst.

  • - I think there's just

  • a cynical perspective you can take that there.

  • This is such a simple celebration of a thing

  • that there must be something behind it.

  • I think the internet, for good and bad, is just skeptical.

  • Like, what's behind this?

  • - My hero, Albert Camus.

  • And if there's one thing I would wanna fight, it's cynicism.

  • Because it's such a giving up...

  • It's such, everything sucks.

  • This sucks, that sucks, this sucks. Most things suck.

  • Most standard comedians suck. Most movies suck.

  • All podcasts suck. But it doesn't matter.

  • - Especially yours. - Especially mine.

  • It's unwatchable. - "YOUR WELCOME"

  • He can't even spell it correctly.

  • - (laughs) But the stuff that's good is what matters.

  • Who caress if 90% of movies are terrible,

  • like they're the ones that change your life, the books,

  • the people, the comedians, the shows, the music...

  • - And even the terrible things

  • have good moments, beautiful moments.

  • - [Michael] Some, not all.

  • - Your podcast being an example of not all.

  • I've literally just, I keep listening

  • for something good, something good.

  • - In all fairness, none of my guests have anything to offer.

  • That's not on me. I try.

  • - Yeah.

  • Well, I wish you'd talk a little less in your podcast.

  • It's a little excessive.

  • I only listen for the underwear commercials.

  • - Sheathunderwear.com, probably called Malice.

  • - I think you did this,

  • I haven't seen you do it in a while,

  • but this kind of commentary on a debate or I think it

  • was with Rand, like an Ayn Rand debate or something.

  • - Oh yeah. Malice at the Movies.

  • I watched the video and I broke it down.

  • - [Lex] That was really great. I wish you did that more.

  • - I haven't done live streaming in a long time.

  • It was something I was doing a lot

  • in New York, especially during COVID.

  • I feel that, I don't know,

  • I got so many projects on the plate, I'm, oh,

  • this is something else I'm thankful for.

  • This is something I'm very,

  • very thankful for and I'm gonna announce it here.

  • - [Lex] Coming out of the closet.

  • Finally. Go ahead.

  • Who's the lucky guy?

  • (both laughing)

  • - You're the one in drag.

  • - Guns out. Guns out. - He makes me-

  • - The sleeves off. - He makes me

  • call him Sex Friedman.

  • - (laughs) You like it.

  • - So... I didn't say it.

  • - All right. - Didn't even imply that.

  • When I, in, as you probably know, as you know,

  • but as many people watching this also know,

  • Harvey Pekar who had that comic book series,

  • "American Splendor" was the subject

  • of movie "American Splendor".

  • He wrote a graphic novel about me in 2006

  • called "Ego and Hubris", which goes for like $150 on eBay.

  • It's not worth it, just download it.

  • And I met Harvey because I wrote this screenplay

  • about this band from the '80s called Rubber Rodeo.

  • It's a real band.

  • And the keyboardist, Gary Leib, who passed away,

  • rest in peace, Gary,

  • introduced me to Harvey 'cause he did the animation

  • for the movie.

  • And this script's been in my desk for over 20 years.

  • And I realized, thanks to my buddy Eric July,

  • who has some huge success with his comics,

  • I could just produce this as a graphic novel.

  • So I've got an artist, we're getting it together,

  • so I'm gonna make it happen finally.

  • And it's some of the best writing I've ever done.

  • I'm really proud of the story.

  • It's kind of ironic reading it now,

  • because when you're a writer, obviously,

  • different books, you put different aspects

  • of yourself into them.

  • Right?

  • And this story's very,

  • very dark because basically they did all

  • the right things and they went nowhere.

  • Right?

  • And what I realized was reading it now

  • that all these fears I had over 20 years ago

  • about what if I'm not gonna make it?

  • What if, you know,

  • I'm doing all the hard work and it's still not enough?

  • Now it's been disproven 'cause I can at least pay my rent.

  • - You feel you've, like, you've made it,

  • 'cause you said you could pay your rent?

  • - I feel that to make it is

  • if you don't have to have a boss,

  • and you know how I really felt like I made it?

  • This is gonna sound like a joke and it's not.

  • This is being an immigrant.

  • I own, as you know, Margaret Thatcher's bookcases.

  • - Yes. - So to me, as an immigrant,

  • to have her bookcases in my house, I've made it.

  • - You are right. It's not a joke.

  • - It's not, there's nothing funny about it at all.

  • - Not laughing. (Michael laughs)

  • It's time to get serious.

  • - Oh, nice. Oh, now I'm more nervous and aroused.

  • So what else are you thankful for?

  • So we're both thankful for family.

  • - I mean, I'm, the fact that I can...

  • - Still get it up? - What's that?

  • - Nothing, go ahead.

  • - I think as an author,

  • to be able to write what you want and have of enough

  • an audience that it covers your living...

  • That's as good as it gets as an author almost.

  • You don't need to be Stephen King or some legend.

  • It's like, you know,

  • there's lots of standups who aren't like world famous,

  • but they have perfectly good living, they do their gig,

  • they do what they love.

  • I feel very, very blessed.

  • But you must be thankful for your career.

  • - Yeah, yeah. Career-wise...

  • But like, I think the best part

  • about it's just meeting, making friends.

  • - Okay. - With people I admire.

  • - Okay, cool.

  • - Quite honestly, just friends.

  • I, you know, the people that have gotten to know me,

  • I hide from the world sometimes,

  • I hit some low points, especially with this new,

  • all the new experiences and just the people

  • that have been there for me and haven't given up on me.

  • - You know, there's days, and I'm sure

  • you've had this also, where like,

  • I literally don't speak to someone the whole day.

  • And in certain times of my life, it's really,

  • I remember very vividly,

  • I was in DC in '97, I was an intern,

  • and that summer, DC closes down on the weekends.

  • And I remember those weekends when like I got off

  • the phone with like the third person, I knew there

  • was no possibility anyone was gonna call.

  • And what that felt like. And it was dark and it was bad.

  • So I remember those feelings of loneliness like a lot.

  • - I still feel alone like that sometimes.

  • You don't feel alone?

  • - Not any more.

  • - What's the reason, you think?

  • - There's like, I have a lot

  • of people who I care about and who care about me.

  • I mean the thing about moving to Austin is I forgot

  • how lonely New York got,

  • because it was like one after another I lost everybody

  • and then you start losing the places you go to.

  • And then it was just like, holy crap. I'm very isolated.

  • And here in Austin there's not as much to do, obviously,

  • as in New York, but there's a lot of people here.

  • More people are coming all the time.

  • So if I ever want to like hang out

  • with someone, you know, I've got a long list.

  • And these are people who I've known for a very long time.

  • People who know me quite well. So I could be myself.

  • My awful, awful, awful, awful, awful, self.

  • And that is something I don't take lightly.

  • - Now you moved to Texas, it's gonna secede.

  • - Yeah. - It's just a very...

  • - Do you know what happened with that?

  • - [Lex] No.

  • - I forget the guy's name.

  • And it's probably for the best.

  • Monday, on Monday, a guy

  • in the Texas legislature introduces a bill to have it

  • on the referendum, to have a referendum for Texas

  • to declare its independence.

  • Tuesday I'm on Rogan. Me and him discuss it.

  • I give it national attention.

  • It was also really funny because a lot of people

  • are like, "These people have been

  • in Texas five minutes, blah, blah."

  • I go to the Texas legislature, meet with the guy,

  • have a nice conversation.

  • A month or two later, unanimous, I think,

  • he gets voted, kicked out of Congress because he got

  • an intern drunk and was inappropriate with her.

  • At least it was a girl in this case.

  • But yeah, so it's like,

  • that was my little Texas independence moment.

  • - Oh. It didn't go anywhere?

  • - It did not go anywhere. - Wow.

  • - But it's still part of the platform

  • of the Texas Republican Party.

  • - Yeah.

  • It's fascinating that history is probably laden

  • with stories like this of failed revolutionaries.

  • We celebrate the heroes, but then there's the losers like...

  • - Myself.

  • - Yeah. - Yeah.

  • - And we're gonna mark that one as a failure

  • and edit it out.

  • And moving on. So, thankful...

  • Yeah. Friendships.

  • Right.

  • But by the way, I wanna say just to you,

  • I'm thankful in this lonely moments for people

  • who write books.

  • I've been listening to audiobooks a lot and reading a lot.

  • I really like audiobooks actually.

  • And just like, I don't know,

  • I can just name random person, Serhii Plokhy,

  • he's a historian, I'm reading on the...

  • - Wait, I read him.

  • What do you, what do- - I just,

  • he written a book most recently

  • about the Russia-Ukraine war.

  • - He wrote another one that I read.

  • Didn't he write about- - Empires, I think?

  • - The fall of the Soviet Union or something like that.

  • - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah.

  • It was very, very good. - He's great. It's true.

  • - I used him as a resource for "The White Pill".

  • - He's objective,

  • while still having emotion and feeling to it.

  • Like he has a bias...

  • - [Michael] That's fine.

  • - But without, a lot of times when you write a story

  • that involves Putin, people are really ideological.

  • - Yeah. - They don't really like,

  • they don't write with a calmness and the clarity

  • and the rigor of history.

  • There's emotion in it.

  • Like there's almost a virtue signaling.

  • - Yeah. - And he doesn't have that,

  • even though he is Ukrainian and has very strong opinions

  • on the matter.

  • Anyway, there's people like that and he's done

  • an incredible job researching a recent event.

  • Like he says, I was looking at everything

  • that's been written about the war in Ukraine

  • and realizing, you know, the old Churchill line,

  • that historians are the worst ones to write

  • about current events except everybody else.

  • And so he is like,

  • I might as well just write about this war.

  • And he does an exceptional job summarizing day by day

  • the details of this war.

  • Anyway. So I'm just grateful for a guy like that.

  • - So for me there's, I'll name some historians

  • I love, Arthur Herman,

  • Victor Sebestyen is probably my favorite,

  • David Pietrusza, P-I-E-T-R-U-S-Z-A.

  • When you are a historian,

  • and I tried to do this to some degree

  • in "The White Pill", as far as I could.

  • But yeah, when you take data and you make it read like

  • a novel, so you're learning

  • about who we are as people, what had happened,

  • but also it's entertaining and readable...

  • That to me is like the acme of writing.

  • And I have so much admiration...

  • - What does acme mean? - Top.

  • - Okay.

  • - Zenith. - Zenith, okay.

  • This is what writers do?

  • They just come up with these incredibly sophisticated words?

  • I'm impressed.

  • - Well, acme's- - Because you could've

  • just said the best of writing.

  • - Acme is also the company in like Bugs Bunny

  • and Wiley Coyote is always Acme, you know, Acme?

  • - Yeah. - Yeah. Like Acme bombs.

  • When they are that good, it's just it leaves me in awe.

  • Ron Chernow is another one. - Who?

  • - He wrote the Hamilton biography.

  • - Oh, nice.

  • Oh, I have a lot of favorite historians

  • about the whole time period

  • of World War II, William Shirer,

  • people that lived during it, especially,

  • I really like those accounts.

  • Obviously Solzhenitsyn is, he's not a historian,

  • but his accounts are Fascinating.

  • You actually, how much do you talk about Solzhenitsyn?

  • - Never. - Not much.

  • Right? Why not?

  • - I feel like I wanted to...

  • There's something I could add to him.

  • - [Lex] Oh, he didn't,

  • he's the Michael Malice of the previous century?

  • - No, he's talented, charismatic, and skilled.

  • So he is not the Michael Malice.

  • Yeah, I did not, I feel like I didn't...

  • I didn't read "Gulag Archipelago" for "The White Pill".

  • I feel- - You didn't?

  • - I didn't. No.

  • I feel I got a lot of it from Anne Applebaum,

  • who's a very controversial figure.

  • Her history books on the Soviet Union, I think, are superb.

  • But she's also accused of being very much like a neocon

  • and being a war monger in contemporary times.

  • - [Lex] Oh, I see.

  • - And I think comparisons between Putin and Stalin,

  • although there is a Venn diagram, I think

  • are a bit much,

  • because I think it's very hard to claim that, you know,

  • if Putin conquered Ukraine, that there'd be a genocide.

  • I think that's a very hard argument to make.

  • - In these tense times,

  • even the comparisons of what's going on in Israel,

  • on either side, comparisons to the Holocaust

  • are also troubling in this way.

  • - Yes.

  • And I also don't like how that term...

  • You know, I got in trouble,

  • there was some literal demon who works

  • at The Atlantic and...

  • - As opposed to a regular demon?

  • - As opposed to figurative demon.

  • - I didn't know they employ demons.

  • - They exclusively employ demons at The Atlantic.

  • And he was giving me crap this a couple years ago

  • on Twitter because I didn't think it's appropriate

  • to refer to George Soros as a Holocaust survivor.

  • And I'm like, listen,

  • if you wanna put him in the same context

  • as Anne Frank, knock yourself out.

  • But I think that's so completely disingenuous

  • and frankly repulsive to me, morally,

  • to equivocate between figures like that.

  • And also to claim that anyone who is a billionaire

  • who is, including Elon, including Sheldon Adelson,

  • there's no shortage of these people,

  • if you wanna use your extreme wealth,

  • use it to influence politics,

  • you have to be up for criticism,

  • and to protect people, Bill Gates,

  • protecting these people from criticism

  • just on the base of their identity is deranged to me.

  • - But also the Holocaust as a historical event,

  • and the atrocities within it are just singular in history.

  • - Right. - And so comparing them...

  • - What's the utility? Right?

  • You're just basically trying to take this brand,

  • I'm using that term, you know,

  • in a very specific way and latch,

  • like when they say climate denial,

  • no one's denying climate exists.

  • So you're just trying to go off of Holocaust denial.

  • I think it's shameless and I think it's gross.

  • - And it cheapens everything. - Yeah.

  • - 'Cause there's deep important lessons about the Holocaust.

  • - Yes.

  • - To me the lessons are about how extreme it can get...

  • - And how fast. - Yeah. And how fast.

  • - That's the one.

  • So, you know, people ask, oh, are humans basically good?

  • Are they basically evil?

  • I always say they're basically animals.

  • And I think people are,

  • most people are almost fundamentally deranged.

  • And that there's basically

  • this veneer of civilization and decency.

  • And when shit hits the fan, and we see

  • this over and over,

  • they do things

  • that would've been completely unthinkable even

  • to themselves five years ago.

  • - Most people are fundamentally deranged

  • with a veneer of civility...

  • - [Michael] There's a show called...

  • - I Think I disagree with that.

  • - [Michael] Well, what's the show called?

  • I'm having Alzheimer's

  • 'cause of the advanced age. - The age...

  • The skincare... - There's a show called,

  • "I Think You Should Leave".

  • It's a sketch show. - I think you should leave.

  • Okay. Sorry.

  • - It's a sketch comedy show.

  • And he captures these great... How's your hair, princess?

  • He captures these great moments of just the, like,

  • just the very thin veneer of normalcy and just

  • the craziness that's so frequently lurking underneath.

  • Another great example of this,

  • when this is dealing with people who are literally crazy.

  • Have you ever seen the show "Hoarders"?

  • So every episode of "Hoarders", there's two,

  • usually two people in every episode,

  • but every episode has the same plot line.

  • Veneer of normalcy, veneer of normalcy, veneer of normalcy,

  • slight expression of concern, full blown derangement.

  • And it always follows that exact pattern.

  • - Yeah.

  • I don't know. I think the deep ocean of the human mind is...

  • Is good. Like there's a longing to be good to others.

  • - I have seen literally no evidence of this.

  • And I know everything's

  • a deep ocean with you people, but like...

  • - What do you mean you people?

  • - Pirates?

  • - Oh. - I don't see it.

  • - What's that Mr. Parrot? He's an antisemite.

  • No, that's not nice to say in front of such

  • a large audience.

  • You're embarrassing me, Mr. Parrot.

  • - Lex, you have- - What's that, Mr. Parrot?

  • - You have- - He's a run of the mill

  • troll and barely an intellectual?

  • That's not nice to say. That's not true.

  • We talked about this. You have to see the good in people.

  • - You have seen personally... - Yep.

  • - How quickly and easily it is for human beings

  • to form outgroups.

  • - Yeah. - And to just read others,

  • just as I just did a minute ago

  • with The Atlantic, completely out of the human race.

  • And that happens constantly and very easily.

  • Humans are tribal beings.

  • So that does not,

  • I don't see how that's compatible

  • with this essential desire to do good.

  • - No, I think it's like in 1984, the two minutes

  • of hate, there is a part of humans that wants

  • to be tribal, and wants to direct, get angry and hateful.

  • And then that hate is easy to direct.

  • By especially people as you, as an anarchist talk

  • about there are people in power, they-

  • - Yes. - Direct that anger.

  • But I think if you just look at recent human history,

  • the desire for good,

  • the communal desire for good outweighs that, I think.

  • Like most of life on Earth right now,

  • people are being good to each other,

  • in a most fundamental sense,

  • relative to how nature usually works.

  • - Okay.

  • I think you're both wrong about people and about nature.

  • So nature is not inherently violent in the sense,

  • like for example, if anyone has an aquarium

  • or if you look at wildlife, yeah,

  • you're gonna have predator or prey.

  • But these animals are gonna be coexisting

  • and they're gonna be ignoring each other for the most part.

  • Right?

  • And as for humans, you know, being essentially good,

  • I think humans are essentially, to each other, you said,

  • I think they're essentially civil and amiable,

  • but that's not really being good.

  • - Good, I think,

  • is a thing that gets illustrated

  • when you're challenged, when there's-

  • - Yes. - Difficult situations.

  • - Exactly. Yes.

  • - I mean, civility is a good starting point.

  • And then when there's a big challenge that comes,

  • people step up, on average.

  • - I completely agree with you that human beings

  • are capable of such profound goodness that it kind

  • of makes you extremely emotional.

  • And I certainly think that that's true.

  • But I think that that's more unusual than it is the norm.

  • - I see beauty everywhere.

  • - So do I.

  • But that doesn't mean it's in every person.

  • - Not in every person, but in most people.

  • I think, I mean,

  • I wish there was a really good way to measure this.

  • My general sense of the world is just,

  • there's so much incredible of both in terms of economics,

  • in terms of art,

  • in terms of just creation as a whole that's happened

  • over the past century that it feels like the good

  • is outpowering the bad.

  • - You just did the perfect segue to the box.

  • - What's in the box.

  • - So... - Is it your fragile ego?

  • - That's my, you stole my joke!

  • You stole my joke!

  • That was the joke I made at you before we recorded.

  • You stole my joke!

  • - No, no, I didn't.

  • I write all your material, you hack.

  • - (laughs) So, as you know,

  • I have a lot of beautiful stuff in my house.

  • 'Cause I think

  • it's something very important, everyone listening.

  • If you accomplish something

  • that is great, some achievement,

  • what I like

  • to do is buy myself something to remember that moment.

  • 'Cause sometimes when it's hard,

  • you forget you've done great things in your life,

  • you've had accomplishments.

  • It doesn't have to be some amazing factory.

  • It could just be like my first job where I got

  • a raise or, you know what, I...

  • Anything.

  • So there's this amazing sculptor named Jake Michael Singer,

  • a singer who's a sculptor.

  • And I saw a piece of his- - How's his singing voice?

  • This is, joke's not gonna- - Hold on.

  • I could go somewhere with this.

  • - Okay. - How's his singing voice?

  • - Do you want me to write your joke for you?

  • - Yeah. What's the punchline?

  • Hard.

  • (both laughing) There it is, that's...

  • - That's what she said.

  • - So I followed him on Instagram, he followed me back.

  • And he is like, if I made, he says,

  • what's the point of being an artist if this work

  • I create isn't in the spaces of people I like and admire?

  • He's a big fan of yours. You've given him...

  • And our episodes together give him joy.

  • So he said, if I make Lex a sculpture,

  • will he put on the shelf behind him?

  • And what that reminded me of is when I was a kid,

  • you read Batman comics and there's the Batcave.

  • And the Batcave has all this cool stuff in it.

  • I didn't realize until much later that all

  • of those things in the Batcave had an origin story.

  • - [Lex] Hmm.

  • - So the giant penny, the dinosaur,

  • there was actually a story where that came from.

  • So if you're a fan of a show, you can spot, oh,

  • this is when this appeared, this is when that appeared,

  • this when that appeared.

  • So he made you this sculpture,

  • he lives in Turkey and it's called "Chance Murmur".

  • And it is, I haven't even seen it yet.

  • It is absolutely beautiful.

  • - All right, this...

  • So you wanna do a little unboxing?

  • - Yes. - Okay.

  • Axe or?

  • - Body spray. - (laughs) All right.

  • - Let's do it. - Let's unbox.

  • - I'm so excited.

  • Hey, Lex has got a box.

  • (both laughing)

  • - You know that Steven Segal movie where there's like

  • a stripper that comes outta the box?

  • - Is there... - "Under Siege"?

  • - Okay. - He's on a boat.

  • You're not an action film guy.

  • - No.

  • - One.

  • What does the pirate say when he turns 80?

  • - What? - I am 80.

  • - Aye matey. Oh.

  • (both laughing)

  • - [Lex] Oh. See that's how I know you don't like humor.

  • - I just don't like pirates.

  • - [Lex] Well, your mom does.

  • Do you play any musical instruments?

  • - No.

  • Neither do you. I've seen your guitar videos. (laughs)

  • - Okay.

  • Here's a big piece of wood for you.

  • That's what it feels like, just so you know.

  • - Oh wow.

  • - You need help? - Yeah.

  • - Oh my God.

  • - This traveled across the world.

  • - So here's why his work speaks so much to me.

  • So first of all,

  • he's combining so many different references.

  • It's Nike, the Goddess of Victory. Right?

  • It's that it looks like an angel as well.

  • The Italian futurist,

  • which is my favorite art movement

  • from the early 20th century,

  • they tried to capture motion in 2D or 3D form.

  • - Well, Jake, thank you, thank you, thank you,

  • thank you for creating beautiful things.

  • And I thank you for caring about somebody like me

  • and somebody like Michael, who really feels the love.

  • - That's the other thing. - Thank you.

  • - When you have something that matters to you

  • in your house and you're having a bad day,

  • you can look at it and remember, you know what I mean?

  • That spirit of joy. And I actually have a list here.

  • - Okay. - I got a little rant ready?

  • Do you wanna hear my rant? - Yeah, let's go. You're...

  • - One of the things that drives me crazy

  • is when people, especially conservatives,

  • think that all contemporary art is ugly or abstract

  • or like literally garbage.

  • And there's a lot of that.

  • But so much of the stuff out there in galleries

  • is not only not crazy expensive,

  • but they're trying to sell things for people in their house.

  • And these are young artists, you know,

  • they're trying to add beauty.

  • I have a list,

  • so if you don't believe me

  • and you think all contemporary art is garbage

  • or terrible, go to the website or any of these places

  • that I'm gonna rattle off, look through them,

  • and you're telling me that it's not

  • about creating beauty and joy and things in people's lives.

  • So I don't have any relationship with any of these people.

  • These are just some galleries I follow on Instagram.

  • Outre Gallery, Antler Gallery, Giant Robot 2, Beinart,

  • I dunno how to pronounce it,

  • I'm sorry, B-E-I-N-A-R-T, Spoke Art Gallery,

  • Var Gallery, Milwaukee, I was there.

  • The pieces were not expensive at all.

  • - What kind of art are we talking about? Everything?

  • - Mostly paintings.

  • Mostly paintings. Some sculptures too, like this.

  • Corey Helford is my favorite one in LA.

  • Night Gallery, Vertical Gallery, Avant Gallery,

  • Hive Gallery, Haven Gallery, and Curio Art Gallery.

  • I'm telling you, it's not exorbitant.

  • This is not the kind of thing where you have to go

  • to museum and be like, this doesn't make sense to me.

  • You look at it right away, you're like, okay,

  • I know what this is. And it's beautiful.

  • It's awesome.

  • And you're supporting someone who's young

  • and creative trying to do something and make the world

  • a better place.

  • So I'm a big fan of the contemporary art scene.

  • A lot of it is not great,

  • but even the stuff that's not great

  • is very rarely disgusting or gross.

  • It's just like, okay, I've seen this before,

  • or something like that.

  • - [Lex] Okay.

  • - It's like the difference between,

  • there's like a standup where like I'll pay money

  • for the ticket and someone's like, who's an opener?

  • It's like I wouldn't pay to see him perform,

  • but he sure still made me laugh.

  • That person is still more, by far more good than bad.

  • So a lot of this art isn't stuff I would own,

  • but it's like, okay, I get it.

  • I like it.

  • - Well, as the analogy goes,

  • I really like going to open mics actually,

  • because like, it sounds absurd to say,

  • but funny isn't the only thing that's beautiful

  • about standup comedy, it's the act, the...

  • - [Michael] Yeah-

  • - No, it's going for it, it's trying to be funny,

  • it's taking the leap,

  • trying to joke and some of the best stuff

  • is actually funny, but the audience

  • is like three people, two of whom

  • are drunk and bored and you're still going for it.

  • And that's like, that's the human spirit right there.

  • - Roseanne was telling me how Gilbert Gottfried would go on.

  • It was like three in the morning and it was like five,

  • her and like three other comics in the audience.

  • And like, they all were just dying.

  • Like he was just killing them. Who's your favorite comedian?

  • - Dave Smith.

  • - Who?

  • - And cut scene.

  • Favorite comedian, first Norm McDonald,

  • if you like put a gun to my head

  • and I had to answer really quickly, that would be him.

  • - [Michael] Okay.

  • - I would also say Louis C.K..

  • - Oh wow.

  • Yeah. Oh my God.

  • Yes.

  • - But that's almost like a vanilla answer at this moment

  • in history because it's like...

  • - Louis C.K.'s pretty radioactive.

  • - He is.

  • Well, he does it... The tough topics-

  • - Sure. - The best.

  • Mitch Hedberg. The wit of a good one-liner is great.

  • I guess that's what Norm McDonald's genius is at.

  • - [Michael] Yes.

  • - What about you?

  • - There's a, I mean,

  • we're so fortunate to be here in Austin

  • because like Comedy Mothership,

  • you go there and like people are just killing it.

  • David Lucas is amazing.

  • - Thai Rivera, Thai Rivera probably

  • did the best set I've seen since

  • I've been here in Austin.

  • And I watched him, and I'm like, this guy's

  • even bitchier than I am.

  • So I reached out to him. So he's just terrific.

  • David Lucas is another one. A buddy of mine.

  • - You just said a choice, I think.

  • - [Michael] I'm thinking, Dave Landau. Excuse me.

  • - Yeah. - Dave Landau.

  • Joe Mackey. - Old age catching up.

  • - It's true though.

  • - It's true. - It's true.

  • - It's true. - Dave Lucas.

  • - You ever been to the Comedy Mothership?

  • It's a great spot.

  • - Where is that? Is that in Austin?

  • - Austin?

  • Is that where Willie Nelson's from? I haven't really.

  • Go ahead, I'm sorry.

  • - Oh, I heard a joke about that the other week.

  • What's the- - Tell a joke again.

  • - What's the only thing worse than giving head

  • to Willie Nelson?

  • - What?

  • - If he says, I'm not Willie Nelson.

  • (both laughing)

  • - What's that Mr. Parrot? I know he is not funny.

  • He thinks he's better on Twitter,

  • but that's not nice to say right in front of his face.

  • Just think about how he feels.

  • - The statue Chance Murmur is judging you.

  • - Chance? - It's called Chance Murmur.

  • - Chance Murmur.

  • - God, that's so beautiful.

  • - That's gorgeous.

  • - This is another reason I hate cynicism

  • and I talk about this a lot.

  • Even just on Etsy, there's so many small,

  • not huge companies, like individual artisans,

  • who are creating great stuff and just making it happen.

  • And it's really sad for me where people can't see that.

  • Or if they're like,

  • well how could I be excited about a sculpture

  • when blah-blah-blah the Middle East?

  • And it's just like,

  • you can always look for an excuse not to look for joy,

  • or you could look for an excuse to look for joy.

  • - Yeah. That's incredible.

  • I feel the same way about OnlyFans.

  • I can't even get that outta my mouth before laughing

  • at my own failed joke.

  • - That's what she said. - Edit.

  • Oh? All right.

  • That might be one of the first that's what she said

  • from a Michael Malice.

  • - Yeah. - I'm gonna count that.

  • - I don't know what I'm gonna do with mine,

  • 'cause I got my own, mine's three feet tall, just like me.

  • - Your box was much bigger. - Yeah.

  • - And it was giving me an inferiority complex.

  • I think I'm gonna invade Russia.

  • (Michael laughing)

  • That's a Napoleon reference for those in the audience.

  • - I don't know if I'm gonna, I think I'm gonna put it

  • in my bedroom so that it's the first thing I see

  • when I wake up.

  • - Put in the bedroom? - Yeah.

  • - Do we get through everything we're thankful for?

  • - No. I've got lots of things I'm thankful for.

  • - What else?

  • Friends, family... We said books.

  • - I'm thankful for career.

  • I am thankful for...

  • I am thankful for,

  • and I know people are gonna lose their minds

  • and I can hear them flipping out already,

  • I am thankful for social media.

  • - Yeah. - For several reasons.

  • First, it is a way for people to make connections

  • that they couldn't have made in years past.

  • That if you got some weird hobby,

  • you can find that other person's weird hobby

  • and you make that connection.

  • It's a great way to stay in touch permanently

  • for people otherwise you'd lose touch with,

  • you know, whatever venue.

  • And it's also a great way to expose corporate

  • depravity, when you have these organizations

  • that are dishonest, I think the Community Notes thing

  • on Twitter is the greatest thing ever.

  • - Ah, that's incredible.

  • I wish they would pay attention

  • to the Michael Malice account more often.

  • - You shouldn't be encouraging anyone to pay attention

  • to my Twitter account.

  • - Yeah. - It's a dumpster fire.

  • And I don't mean Bridget,

  • I mean like a literal-

  • - Bridget, by the way, is amazing.

  • But your Twitter account- - She lives here?

  • - Yes. Not here.

  • I wish she did.

  • - She's in Georgetown.

  • - No, I mean in this, where we're sitting...

  • - Oh. - It's a joke, Michael.

  • - Is it? - Yeah.

  • - But I'm just really glad about,

  • it's another way for people

  • who before would've felt very alone.

  • I know it makes some people do feel alone,

  • but for other people, it makes them feel connected.

  • - There's been a lot of talk about antisemitism recently.

  • - [Michael] Yeah.

  • - What's your sense about this? Is there...

  • Is antisemitism like any other brand of hate?

  • There's a lot of hate out there.

  • - No, I don't think it's like any other brand

  • of hate, because I don't think racists or transphobes

  • or homophobes or misogynists or xenophobes argue openly

  • or even not so openly for the killing

  • of black Americans, transgender people, gay people,

  • women or immigrants.

  • And it's not only something that's talked about,

  • it's something that has actually happened.

  • And not just the Holocaust, but just centuries of pogroms.

  • Right?

  • There's this great book that I read many years ago

  • called "The Satanization of the Jews",

  • Camille Paglia recommended it and I read it.

  • And they live in this certain specific kind of antisemitism.

  • And I'm, again, I'm not talking

  • about people who are against Israel or something.

  • I'm talking specifically about Jew hatred.

  • They have this moral calculus that Jews

  • are the only people who are capable of good or evil,

  • and Jews are exclusively capable of evil.

  • And for example, if you look at the George W. Bush

  • White House, you had W, you had Cheney,

  • Condoleezza Rice, Colin Powell, Donald Rumsfeld,

  • a lot of these neocon advisors.

  • So if there's 10 people in a room

  • and there's one Jewish person, it's his fault,

  • and the rest are Jew controlled.

  • So again, they only exist as a puppet of Jews

  • in this kind of worldview.

  • And it's like that, to me, if there were no Jews

  • on Earth, it is crazy to say that John Bolton

  • and Liz Cheney and Lindsey Graham wouldn't be pushing

  • for more war.

  • That makes no sense to me.

  • It's like, you blame the Jews when bad things happen.

  • But when a Jewish person does something good,

  • it doesn't really matter.

  • Or just wait. He's gonna do something bad.

  • Well, yeah, that's true.

  • Human beings do good things

  • and then they do bad things sometimes.

  • But it only counts when that Jewish person does

  • the bad thing.

  • - I wonder what's a way to fight antisemitism

  • and fight hate in general?

  • - I think the only, or the best way,

  • 'cause I thought a lot about this,

  • about how did gay Americans go

  • from being universally hated and despised to the point

  • that many people in the '80s went to their graves,

  • those who had AIDS without even telling

  • their parents, 'cause they were so scared

  • to now Times Square is just covered in pride flags.

  • And I think, and this also works for Islamophobia

  • and some of these other bigotry is what I call

  • the ambassador program.

  • Because as soon as you know someone who is a member

  • of a certain group,

  • it is a lot harder to be bigoted against them.

  • Because instead of this being this outgroup

  • that's somewhere out there, it's like, wait a minute,

  • I work with this guy, yeah,

  • he's kind of a jerk and maybe he sees things

  • a little differently than me,

  • but this guy is not a horrible human being.

  • So I think the only way to fight any form of bigotry

  • is to be a good example of the counter

  • to these whatever archetype or stereotype is in the culture.

  • - Karl Marx wrote that religion is the sigh

  • of the oppressed creature, the heart

  • of a heartless world, and the soul of a soulless condition.

  • It is the opium of the people. As the famous phrase goes.

  • Do you think he has a point?

  • - No, I hate that quote.

  • I absolutely hate it.

  • I despise this sort of Reddit internet atheist activism

  • for the simple reason that I know many people,

  • who in finding faith,

  • have become objectively better human beings.

  • They start living consciously.

  • They take morality seriously.

  • They try, we all fail, to be moral good people.

  • So this sneering that these midwits,

  • these marginally intelligent people

  • have towards religious people...

  • Now lots of religious people use religion

  • to rationalize their bad behavior or, you know,

  • sinful or big ego so and so forth.

  • That exists. That's true.

  • But to say that it never helps anyone

  • and it's universally the...

  • See, Marx was talking about a period, I mean,

  • I'll defend his quote, when his argument was, you know,

  • the masses are being starved and oppressed,

  • but they're promised, don't worry,

  • you'll have riches in Heaven.

  • So you should kind of like,

  • let yourself be pushed around now.

  • And this is kind of this BS bargain that the people

  • are being given.

  • So that was, I think, the point he was making.

  • It certainly doesn't apply nowadays.

  • I'm close to the family in the Midwest.

  • They're good Christian people.

  • I remember very specifically this guy, shout out

  • to him, Sean Sherrod, I went to college with him,

  • David Lucas, and...

  • - Have you checked out the Comedy Mothership,

  • great, great club. - Where is it?

  • Is it in Austin? - Willie Nelson.

  • - And I, you know, I was 17,

  • 18 freshman year and I was reading all this criticism

  • of the Bible and I was like, look, this is in there,

  • look at this in there.

  • And he put his hand on my shoulder

  • and he says, "Michael,

  • there's nothing you're gonna tell me that's going

  • to make me lose my faith."

  • And that was a very self-aware and profound thing to say...

  • As I've gotten older, I know lots of religious people.

  • There's no part of me that thinks they're wrong

  • or they should be mocked.

  • It's like, it also reminds me of when people sneer

  • at addicts in recovery, they're like,

  • "Alcoholism isn't a disease. It's a choice."

  • It's like, wait a minute.

  • You don't know what it's like

  • to have your entire life ruined by drugs or alcohol.

  • And if you have to tell yourself, you know,

  • I have this disease and blah blah blah,

  • and that keeps you from drinking and now

  • you're a moral, upstanding person who's reliable

  • and then takes responsibility for their actions,

  • I don't see the harm at all.

  • So I think this kind of activist atheism is cheap.

  • I don't agree with it whatsoever.

  • And I do not like that quote at all.

  • - But otherwise, big fan of Marx.

  • - I mean, I think there's a fan of mine.

  • I forget who it was. Apologies.

  • He had this great quote.

  • He goes, and this is me talking.

  • He goes, the games people play to feel smarter

  • than others is depressing and annoying.

  • And I think this kind of fedora internet atheism

  • is a good example.

  • 'Cause here's the other thing.

  • If you've proven that someone else is stupid,

  • that doesn't mean you're smart.

  • You could both be stupid. So congrats.

  • You prove someone else is stupid. Who cares.

  • - Yeah. And sneering in all forms.

  • - [Michael] Yes.

  • - In general is just not great.

  • - That's one of the things I block out people

  • on social media instantly.

  • You're not gonna sneer at me in my space.

  • You could sneer me all you want in your space,

  • but I'm not putting up with your crap.

  • I don't know you.

  • - MySpace, great social network.

  • - Is that on Sixth Street?

  • - AOL.com.

  • (Michael imitates beeping)

  • That's how Lex comes.

  • (both laughing)

  • - Like a Pavlov's dog,

  • that was the sound before you get to see,

  • spend 10 minutes waiting for an image of a lady load,

  • one line at a time. (imitates monitor)

  • I recently talked to John Mearsheimer,

  • I dunno if you know him at all.

  • So he has this idea about offensive realism.

  • It's a way to analyze the world, international relations.

  • And the basic idea,

  • and I'll run it by you and see what you think

  • is that states,

  • nations want to survive and they try

  • to do so by maximizing power, military power.

  • And he talks about anarchy quite a bit in that one

  • of these underlying assumptions of this way of viewing

  • the world is that states are anarchic towards each other.

  • - Yes, that's true.

  • - And they operate under a lot of uncertainty.

  • States cannot be sure

  • that other states will not

  • use military capabilities against them.

  • - Right.

  • - They want to survive and they want

  • to use military power to control the uncertainty

  • to protect themselves.

  • - So I disagree in that regard.

  • And I see on your bookshelf,

  • I think the world is a lot closer to "Brave New World"

  • than it is to "1984".

  • And I think it is, if you look at,

  • let's suppose China's influence in America, right?

  • The influence is far more through soft power

  • than military power.

  • China doesn't threaten America through, you know,

  • we're gonna kill you.

  • It's more like the infiltration

  • of universities, TikTok, things of that nature.

  • Maybe this would've worked before the pop culture era.

  • But I think one of the reasons we have this kind

  • of American hegemony isn't just a function

  • of American military.

  • I think it's much more a function

  • of American popular culture.

  • When you're exporting ideas and culture,

  • it makes other people in other countries feel closer

  • to you, and also regard you as a friend,

  • and also to adopt your values.

  • It's a great way to spread propaganda.

  • - It seems to correlate though, right?

  • It's interesting.

  • It's an interesting idea what has more power,

  • the viral spread of ideas or the power of the military?

  • It seems that the United States is at the top

  • of the world on both.

  • - [Michael] That's true.

  • - And so it's hard to disentangle the two.

  • - Let's look at Europe.

  • American culture is very popular in Europe in many ways.

  • Right?

  • Like the best music comes out of Sweden, Swedish indie pop.

  • They're singing in English.

  • You know, even though so on and so forth.

  • None of this is a function,

  • maybe it's a function of post World War II to some extent.

  • But I don't think it's a function of American bases there.

  • I think it's a function of we're exporting our music,

  • our TV shows, and our movies.

  • - Yeah. It's interesting.

  • If the battleground will be "Brave New World",

  • the battle of ideas.

  • - I think it's clearly, it's so much cheaper.

  • And again, this is one of the dark sides of social media,

  • to use influence than it is to use threats.

  • I don't think, I think COVID is a good example of this.

  • Like, so much of the pressure, yes,

  • there was authoritarianism, but it was the fact

  • that everyone bought into it, rightly or wrongly,

  • but the vast majority of the population was behind all

  • of these things.

  • And that was through persuasion, not 'cause...

  • And 'cause people are begging for it to come back

  • in many cases.

  • - So who's funding you? Which intelligence agency?

  • - Mossad. - Mossad, Mossad.

  • This is how you do great interviewing.

  • See, he didn't even expect that. (chuckling)

  • Okay.

  • - What's that, Mr. Parrot?

  • - Mr. Parrot.

  • You knew it, but you didn't have any documentation, did you?

  • - I think Mr. Parrot is threatened by the better wings,

  • not a Chance Murmur.

  • - He gets like that when he is turned on.

  • - Oh. Okay. - He's not threatened.

  • You can't wait until he's,

  • all three of us are alone together.

  • It's gonna be one hell of a party.

  • - Beaks and feathers everywhere.

  • - And metal.

  • Yeah. This thing's beautiful.

  • - [Michael] It's ridiculous.

  • - You have actually a lot of really cool stuff

  • at your place.

  • - [Michael] It's so fun.

  • - What's a cool thing that stands out to you?

  • Maybe a recent edition.

  • - So I went to the Dallas Museum of Art last year

  • for my birthday.

  • And there was a painting I liked and I Googled it

  • and I saw the auction for that exact painting.

  • And it was like, I think three grand,

  • which is not cheap, but not something...

  • You think in a museum,

  • I can never afford something like this, right?

  • So when I was in, I went to Houston with some friends,

  • the Sideserf, Natalie, who made the cake of you.

  • - Oh yeah. Cake terrified my mom.

  • - Did it? - Yeah.

  • - [Michael] Oh...

  • - [Lex] No, it's not the cake that terrified my mom.

  • It's you, Michael Malice, cutting it off,

  • cutting the face off and laughing maniacally.

  • - Well, Natalie's pregnant.

  • She's gonna have a daughter named Daisy.

  • So congrats to Natalie.

  • - [Lex] Congrats-

  • - But I was in the museum with them and they was a statue

  • of Thoth who's the Egyptian god whose head is an ibis.

  • It's a bird with a long beak.

  • And Thoth is the god of the Moon, god of knowledge,

  • and supposedly he invented writing.

  • So I thought, you know what?

  • I've always loved ancient Egypt. I know a lot about it.

  • And especially the mythology.

  • It'd be really cool as an aspiring author

  • to have an ancient Egyptian Thoth statue in my house.

  • Well, it turned out that the Egyptians also killed

  • and mummified ibises and buried them with scribes.

  • And a week after I went to the museum,

  • there was an auction for an ibis mummy.

  • And I have it now in my house, still

  • in its bandages, overlooking my desk.

  • And we all know,

  • it's gonna come to life and peck out my eyes.

  • - Yeah. - And write with my blood.

  • But that is one of the recent cool additions.

  • Another thing I have, which is like, in terms

  • of holy crap, I've made it, I have

  • an original Patrick Nagel painting,

  • and if people don't know the name,

  • he's like the '80s artist.

  • He did "Duran Duran" cover.

  • Whenever you see in nail salons.

  • I have a male, which were very rare for him to do.

  • So that's two of my kind of favorite pieces.

  • - You have what?

  • - He only drew women predominantly.

  • I have one where he drew a male, like it was a guy

  • in a, like a jean hat or something.

  • - Hmm.

  • - And now I'm looking forward to,

  • so Jake made me

  • a three foot tall sculpture called Future Murmur,

  • which I am ecstatic to get.

  • - Just remind yourself how many fascinating,

  • beautiful people that are out there?

  • - And just the victory and holiness and technology

  • and speed and how many people have, you know,

  • fought so that I could do what I do.

  • - Yeah.

  • That's another thing I'm grateful for.

  • Just like the 100 billion or so people that came before us.

  • - Yeah.

  • - And also the trillions of life forms

  • that came before that.

  • - Oh God,

  • I've gone down this trilobyte rabbit hole, buying fossils.

  • 'Cause as a kid I thought trilobytes were the coolest thing.

  • And I've got like 15.

  • - Yeah. - And what's interesting

  • is when you buy trilobyte fossils on eBay,

  • they're listed as used, (laughs)

  • because it's gotta be new or used and according

  • to the programming, so it's used.

  • Yeah.

  • - Yeah.

  • But just look, thinking about all that history,

  • just all the life forms that came before,

  • it seems like a really special thing we have going

  • on Earth here.

  • - Oh, yeah.

  • I think that that's very fair to say.

  • But I also think this kind of is like live life

  • to the fullest.

  • You know, Camus talked about living to the point of tears.

  • - [Lex] Yeah.

  • - Especially on behalf of people who didn't

  • have that privilege.

  • So, you know, I dedicated "The White Pill" to my parents

  • who got me out of the Soviet Union and all the kids

  • who never could.

  • And it's like, when I die, I want everyone else

  • to not only, they're obviously gonna be happy, but yeah...

  • Like, I'm not here. Enjoy, you live for me.

  • 'Cause I can't have that privilege any more.

  • - What do you think about Camus as a writer?

  • - I don't like his novels at all.

  • - Oh, you don't? - At all.

  • - Yeah.

  • You've talked shit about "The Plague" to me a little bit.

  • - Yeah. I think the book is pointless.

  • - It's fascinating...

  • - Because all you need to do is read the synopsis

  • and then you get it.

  • Like, I don't think his book- - Isn't that true

  • for most books? - No.

  • - I mean, like, you could take, I don't know.

  • I just don't agree at all.

  • I mean, it's "Catcher in the Rye".

  • There's a lot of books seem trivial.

  • - I don't think it seems trivial,

  • but I think- - "Animal Farm".

  • - "Animal Farm" is a methodical step-by-step examination

  • of a transformation from one thing to another.

  • "The Plague" is not that.

  • - It's a methodical examination of what a society

  • is like under the plague,

  • which could symbolize a lot of things,

  • including the plague directly or Nazi Germany

  • or ideological movements or...

  • It's similar to "Animal Farm".

  • Maybe not as effective

  • in terms of using this kind of symbol.

  • - I think "Animal Farm" has a narrative,

  • and I'm gonna spoil the whole "Plague".

  • The book "The Plague". - Okay.

  • - There's a town I believe in Oman,

  • a plague descends, people struggle to deal with it,

  • and the plague vanishes as quickly as it came.

  • The end.

  • - Yeah.

  • But there's the victims,

  • the people that take advantage of it,

  • there's the doctor that amidst the absurdity and the evil

  • of the plague is fighting to do good.

  • - Nothing from me. There's nothing for me.

  • - Okay.

  • Well, I could spoil "Animal Farm".

  • There's pigs, there's animals at a farm, (laughs)

  • and the humans are abusing them.

  • And then the animals overthrow the humans.

  • But then the pigs become just like the humans.

  • The lesson, kids,

  • is that power corrupts no matter whether you walk on four

  • or on two.

  • - I thought the lesson was that pigs

  • are the most human-like animals on the farm.

  • - I thought the lesson

  • was that there's no sugar candy mountain.

  • - That's right. (laughs)

  • - You've interviewed a lot of people.

  • - [Michael] Yeah.

  • - What have you learned getting to the soul of a person?

  • The soul of an idea? From interviewing.

  • Just how to do a good interview?

  • - First off, I'm not interviewing just random people.

  • I'm interviewing people who are accomplished.

  • It's not a random group that's self-selecting

  • for something different.

  • But I think that people love to,

  • and this is very understandable, love to feel seen.

  • So if you're someone who's done something,

  • even if you're like the best guinea pig breeder

  • in America, to have someone interested in your work,

  • and listen to what you're saying...

  • 'Cause I remember every book I've written, you know,

  • I have friends

  • that I wouldn't stop talking about, you know,

  • the person I'm writing with or, you know,

  • the North Korea and at a certain point,

  • I'm sure they're like, all right,

  • I don't care about this any more.

  • But like, it takes over your brain. You know what I mean?

  • So if you, someone who has an interest or a hobby,

  • I'm sure to some extent maybe your friends or family

  • are sick of talking about it or you don't wanna talk

  • about it with them, you wanna have,

  • that's the private life where you could just be yourself.

  • So I try to, and this comes

  • from my co-authoring background, when I'm talking

  • to people, to ask the questions

  • that they haven't heard before.

  • There's a possibility that this actor I'm a huge fan of,

  • is gonna be on my show.

  • I don't wanna spoil everything.

  • And he's got a very specific role that he's known for.

  • And I know I'm gonna, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna,

  • I know it's gonna be annoying for you talking

  • about this one role,

  • but my goal is to ask questions you aren't sick of,

  • haven't been asked.

  • - Porn star or?

  • - No, not a porn star.

  • - That joke failed also...

  • Edit out. What do you know about breeding guinea pigs?

  • You mentioned it. I'd love to hear.

  • - [Michael] I don't know anything.

  • - I would love to hear more about it.

  • - This is, I always use this as an example.

  • I said, you meet someone at a party

  • who breeds guinea pigs.

  • Right? There's two approaches.

  • Either you're weird, get it? Okay.

  • Or sit down and tell me everything.

  • - Yeah. - And I'm very much,

  • and all the people I like are the second group.

  • When you meet someone who's doing something unusual

  • and are passionate about it and, you know, are good

  • at it, like that to me is the mother lode.

  • - Yeah.

  • That to me also is the thing I enjoy the most

  • is like, people that are passionate about-

  • - Because it's who you guys hate?

  • Do you guys hate the hamster people?

  • Do you hate the rabbit people?

  • There's gotta be someone that you guys look down on.

  • Because like the marine aquarium people look down

  • the freshwater aquarium people.

  • - Yeah. It's a hierarchy. - Yes.

  • There's always gonna be a hierarchy.

  • This is where the left anarchists and I disagree.

  • 'Cause they think you could have egalitarianism.

  • There's gonna be a hierarchy.

  • - Hierarchies emerge. - Yes.

  • - There's no anarchy in the guinea pig world.

  • - [Michael] No. It's just a different kind of anarchy.

  • - Somebody's always breeding somebody else.

  • - [Michael] Yes.

  • - And looking down on the others.

  • - If someone's the other.

  • - [Lex] Yeah.

  • - Whether it's the hamster people, the rat people...

  • - And everybody's breeding. - Yeah.

  • - Hmm.

  • By the way, are you an anarcho-capitalist?

  • What flavor of anarchist are you?

  • - [Michael] I'm an anarchist without adjectives.

  • I like them all. The black flag comes in many...

  • - All right. All right.

  • You're quoting your own...

  • No, I understand you.

  • It was a beautiful line in the book.

  • - Thank you.

  • I think the anarcho-capitalist don't give

  • the left-anarchists enough credit,

  • especially for their courage.

  • And I do whatever I can in my power to talk

  • about people like Emma Goldman, whenever possible.

  • - Do you still think that are some people better

  • than others is a good litmus test?

  • - Yes. It's worked 100% of the time.

  • - And for you the answer is yes.

  • - I never answer.

  • - Oh, there's two of them.

  • - (laughs) They're...

  • What, are you getting all Hitchcock up in here?

  • - Oh hey, careful.

  • I always got your back.

  • What little habits in your life make you happy,

  • now that you're in Austin? - Oh my God.

  • I was prepping for this interview and I imagined

  • this coming up and I knew that as I explain this,

  • you know how sometimes when someone tells a story,

  • like at first it's amusing, then it's amusing

  • and concerned, and they're like, holy shit,

  • like where's the exit?

  • - [Lex] Yeah. I'm getting nervous already.

  • - You should.

  • So I'm gonna tell you something

  • I've told only a couple of people.

  • This is my absolutely off the charts

  • autistic approach to shaving.

  • - [Lex] Oh.

  • - So I have this insane system.

  • You asked about habits that gimme joy.

  • I used to hate shaving. I used to hate it.

  • There's something called wet shaving.

  • So wet shaving is, you get the brush,

  • you get the soap that's in a canister.

  • You stir it up, you paint your face and then you shave.

  • The thing is, there are dozens

  • of these shaving soap companies.

  • - Yeah. - Okay.

  • So I tried a couple of hundred of these soaps.

  • 'Cause you're testing for scent,

  • you're testing for with the lather thickness

  • and also how smooth of a shave it gives you.

  • - [Lex] Yeah.

  • - I have it down.

  • I'm not making this up. I'm not this creative.

  • I have it down to a cycle of 67 soaps.

  • - Yeah. - Okay.

  • - So a cycle? - A cycle, so 67.

  • - Yeah. - When I use up one soap,

  • that is a slot that I will have to try new ones

  • and I will try new ones in that slot until I get one

  • that I like, and then that slot is filled.

  • So right now I have 67 that I use and I have 86 that are...

  • - Candidates. Like in queue.

  • - Candidates. - Yeah.

  • - In the queue. - Do you label 'em?

  • Do you remember like which one is which?

  • - Well, they all have beautiful labels.

  • I mean, these are artisans

  • who are creating these amazing things.

  • So I would encourage everyone to try

  • this hobby who's a guy.

  • It's so much fun.

  • I will give shout outs to the companies that are the best.

  • So the best company, in my opinion,

  • is a company called,

  • they just changed the name because you know

  • what they're originally called?

  • I'm not joking. - Yeah.

  • - Grooming Department. (laughs)

  • And now it's like...

  • - It's not a bad name. - Yeah.

  • But it has certain connotations in contemporary discourse.

  • - Yeah. Understand. - So now he changed-

  • - Contemporary discourse.

  • - He changed his name to Aion Skincare, A-I-O-N.

  • That's the sense of the most sophisticated,

  • the most diverse...

  • And the soap is just really high quality.

  • Another amazing company is Barrister and Mann,

  • and if I'm gonna tell you to try one, it's called Cheshire.

  • He comes out with new ones every month or so.

  • A lot of it's miss, a lot of it's hit.

  • Just great, great quality stuff.

  • Another great company is Chiseled Face.

  • They make something called Midnight Stag,

  • which basically smells like a garage.

  • It's one of my favorite soaps of all time.

  • - Yeah. What makes for good smell for Michael Malice?

  • - I've 67 answers. So someone that-

  • - [Lex] So you can't put into, convert it into words.

  • - Some are citrusy, some are industrial, some...

  • - So garage is more industrial.

  • - It smells like a garage.

  • Yeah. Midnight Stag, it smells like garage.

  • Some are fun 'cause they're smells

  • that smell like other things.

  • For example, there's a scent

  • in my queue called Finding Scotty.

  • It smells like Swedish fish.

  • Another great company is Phoenix Shaving.

  • And they have one called Aloha SmackDown.

  • Smells like Hawaiian Punch.

  • They had one called Yule Ham that they made

  • for me special, smells like a ham.

  • They had a ramen one, Rock and Ramen,

  • smells like cup of noodles.

  • So they're great, and every year

  • they do an advent calendar where you,

  • for 12 days, you have a little sample of a soap

  • and a sample of the aftershave.

  • - Nice. - So those are,

  • I'm forgetting someone and I'm feeling angry

  • that I'm doing it.

  • But those are some of the, oh, and Caties Bubbles is great.

  • They're vegan, out of New Jersey.

  • They've got one called Kneehigh to a Grape.

  • It smells like grape soda.

  • I think those are the biggest names off the top of my head.

  • - Will that list converge down to a small set eventually?

  • Or no? 67 down to...

  • - Well, no, it's down to, it's 67, so...

  • - Oh, so it always keeps...

  • - Right, so if there's a slot then, you know what I mean?

  • Like, I'll fill that. You see what I'm saying?

  • - Oh, so you'll forever have the variety of 67?

  • - [Michael] Yes.

  • - Huh.

  • You know what, you know how sad my brain is?

  • When you were telling me this, I was like,

  • I wonder how many soaps are left in Michael Malice's life.

  • Like, you can count your life by days, by months,

  • by years, or by soaps.

  • - That is depressing. That is very dark.

  • - Because each experience of shaving

  • is a little beautiful experience.

  • - [Michael] Yes, it is.

  • - And how many do you have left in your life, right?

  • - That's true. - Yeah.

  • - I gotta tell you, there's something else.

  • There's a term called, my friend Jackie taught me called

  • touching pan, it's a makeup term.

  • So basically when you use it and you could see

  • the bottom, that's like a big moment.

  • - Oh, it's a great thing? - Yeah.

  • It's like what's kind of fun?

  • I'm telling you, like people can scoff,

  • it is such a fun,

  • and there's a lot of us online

  • who are into this whole space.

  • It's really, really fun.

  • - When did you first discover this?

  • - Can I curse? - Yeah.

  • - Fuck you Cole Striker.

  • Because I was staying at my friend Cole's house in LA.

  • - Yeah. - Fuck you Cole.

  • - Fuck you, Cole.

  • - Cole is like one of the biggest hipsters I know.

  • He's got the shirts with the pearl snaps and everything.

  • And I'm staying at his house 'cause I was doing Rogan.

  • And he goes, "Oh, have you heard of this wet shaving thing?"

  • And he goes, "Look, this one's Proraso."

  • That's like the Italian grandpa soap,

  • which is also a great one.

  • And I went down this rabbit hole and I'm like,

  • I don't even know how many, how much money I spent on this.

  • And it's all 'cause of him.

  • - Oh.

  • But it's like a happy fuck you, like, fuck you, Cole.

  • - Yeah. - I love you Cole. Fuck you.

  • - Yeah, it's just... - Thank you.

  • - Yes.

  • - That's a good idea for a tattoo.

  • Fuck you, Cole. (Michael laughing)

  • Do you have advice on how to be happy?

  • - Yes.

  • - There's a lot of loneliness and sadness in the world.

  • - Here I can give a very easy piece of advice that worked

  • a lot for me.

  • Instead of telling yourself

  • that you have these ridiculous standards, tell yourself,

  • I can be better.

  • Right?

  • I don't have to be a great writer.

  • I could be a better writer.

  • I don't have to be a great podcaster.

  • That will never happen. I could be a better podcaster.

  • I could be a better person. I could be a better at the gym.

  • I could be better with my time.

  • And when you regard things in those,

  • and especially if you have metrics that you can go by,

  • you know, I'll run this many miles a day.

  • Things you have control over.

  • Especially as males,

  • when you have this chart and the data's telling you

  • you're improving, right away it's like you

  • have this sense of accomplishment.

  • So I think that is a really great way to...

  • And if something is not working in your life,

  • let's suppose you don't have friends, right?

  • There's the internet. How do people make friends?

  • Try things out. What's the worst that's gonna happen?

  • You're gonna, things will blow up in your face?

  • Well, you'll learn something at least.

  • Don't be afraid of making mistakes.

  • When I was a kid,

  • I was so scared of having things under control, so like,

  • I would never have to get hit in the face, metaphorically.

  • And then I realized, and you realized this as well,

  • everyone who's important gets hit in the face,

  • look at the president, whoever the president is,

  • it becomes a matter of being strong enough

  • that you could take getting hit in the face.

  • So that is a big important switch in your thinking.

  • - Yeah. There's a Bukowski quote I wrote down.

  • "Sometimes you climb out of bed in the morning

  • and you think, I'm not going to make it,

  • but you laugh inside remembering all the times

  • you've felt that way."

  • - [Michael] Yeah. Yeah.

  • - There's a part of me that's like that.

  • There's some days where I feel like this is the worst day

  • of my life.

  • And then like shortly after, I think, like, chuckle at that.

  • - Yes.

  • - Like just knowing the ups and downs of the brain

  • and the mind and life and all that.

  • You ever been depressed?

  • - Yeah, of course. I'm more anxious than depressed.

  • I don't really get depressed. Like, yeah.

  • But I've been depressed.

  • - Like low points? - Yeah.

  • But I distinguish depression between low points. Right?

  • Like, if things are going bad and you feel bad,

  • that makes sense.

  • But when I think of depression,

  • I think of someone who feels bad when things aren't bad.

  • Like, to me,

  • it's like almost by definition, irrational.

  • - Well, yeah.

  • And there's different kinds of, like,

  • there's a exhausted kind of depression where you're not...

  • - [Michael] Right.

  • - It's not so much sad as you're not,

  • don't wanna do anything.

  • You don't want to live. You don't want to...

  • - What's the, yeah. - What's the point?

  • What's the point? - It's a wrap. Yeah.

  • - And like an extreme self-critical negativity,

  • which I'm also scared of,

  • 'cause my brain is generally very self-critical.

  • - 'Cause you're not taking enough magnesium.

  • - Do you take it rectally or in the mouth?

  • - You take a rectally.

  • - [Lex] Okay.

  • - But as for the magnesium, you should take it as a pill.

  • - Okay.

  • Well, the way your mom explained it then is way different.

  • What are you most afraid of?

  • - Holy crap.

  • I'm trying to think of anything I'm afraid of.

  • - You know in "1984?"

  • - [Michael] With the, I thought like, even just...

  • - Like, if I wanted to torture you, hypothetically...

  • - Well, mission accomplished.

  • You know what, I mean in terms of,

  • I'm scared of increasing authoritarianism,

  • but that's not personal and that's something

  • that I don't think is as much

  • of an imminent concern as like, let's say, in Canada.

  • - Are you scared of death? - No.

  • - You think Camus was scared of death?

  • - No. - He just accepted it as...

  • - Look, I can,

  • I honestly feel like if I died tomorrow,

  • I did pretty good with what I had.

  • Like, I think I did things that matter to me.

  • I think I moved the needle on things that matter to me.

  • I think I've been a good friend to the people I care about.

  • I've saved a couple of lives.

  • So I think it's a very low bar for someone

  • to be able to go to their grave and say, you know,

  • I left the world a better place than I found it.

  • I don't think it's that hard.

  • - You ever been betrayed? - Oh, God, yes.

  • Of course. Haven't you?

  • - Not as often as I would've predicted.

  • - Yeah.

  • The Russian upbringing

  • like expects everyone to be like, just,

  • it's a time bomb before the betray.

  • You have been betrayed. Of course.

  • Yeah. - Yeah.

  • You value loyalty?

  • - I do.

  • And I also made it a point to not let

  • that betrayal color my future interactions and regard

  • that as the universal or the norm.

  • - [Lex] Yeah.

  • - I think that's very important.

  • - Me too. - And also I feel bad.

  • I've gotten Lex enough that I feel bad for the person

  • who betrayed me, because it's just like,

  • they didn't need to do this.

  • And at some point, if you betray someone, you know,

  • and you know you're not a good person.

  • I believe that.

  • - [Lex] Yeah.

  • - Like, even if you tell yourself there's something

  • I had to do,

  • you still know you had to do a bad thing to someone

  • who didn't deserve it.

  • And that's a really hard pill to swallow.

  • - In my situation,

  • I still think good thoughts and empathize

  • with the people that have done me wrong.

  • - I don't empathize with them, but I sympathize with them.

  • - My English is not good enough to know the difference.

  • - Empathizing means you're putting yourself in their shoes.

  • Sympathizing means you feel bad for them and wish them well.

  • - Yeah. I wish them well.

  • - Yeah.

  • But I don't put myself like,

  • it's very hard for me to empathize with someone

  • who betrays someone that they care about.

  • 'Cause that is something,

  • it's not that just I think I'm such a great person.

  • It's that I feel guilt very strongly.

  • So if I did that to someone who trusted me,

  • I would really, it would fuck up my head for a long time.

  • - Yeah.

  • But maybe they were in pain, maybe they were desperate.

  • Maybe their back's to the wall.

  • - Sure. - They felt that way.

  • - Sure. Well, that's the sympathy thing.

  • Not really an empathy thing.

  • - Yeah.

  • Yeah. Loyalty is a fascinating thing.

  • - Yes. - I value trust a lot.

  • - I know you do.

  • Especially 'cause you're in such a public, both of us,

  • we're, you know, very public positions.

  • You have to be very careful who you surround yourself with.

  • - It sucks. - Does it?

  • - It sucks because it's hard to...

  • I usually just trust everybody.

  • - That's... Okay, that's crazy.

  • - [Lex] But what's the alternative?

  • - To be, have a filter?

  • - Well, I have a filter in terms of who I interact with.

  • - [Michael] Okay.

  • - But within the, you know, I see the good in people,

  • but then you, in the very rare instances that might turn...

  • - [Michael] Okay.

  • - And yeah, it just sucks. It breaks my heart.

  • - Yeah.

  • I hear you. I completely agree.

  • - Has your heart ever been broken?

  • - Yes.

  • - Love? - Yes.

  • - I'm just so relaxed right now.

  • - Good. - And happy.

  • Relaxed and happy.

  • - Good.

  • - This is making me really happy.

  • It's so, again,

  • it's beautiful on like eight different levels.

  • - I think that's the deepest thing I'm thankful for.

  • It's just how beautiful people are and how beautiful

  • the world is.

  • - I really, and people are gonna laugh

  • and I welcome it, that's fine.

  • I really sometimes feel like the guy

  • in "American Beauty" looking at the plastic bag dancing

  • in the wind and he's brought to tears

  • 'cause of how much beautiful life is.

  • And a lot of people feel the need to sneer at that scene.

  • And Ricky Fitts, whatever.

  • And I think he's got it exactly right.

  • - I think he does too.

  • Well, in the end, you and I'll be both laughing.

  • - That's exact, and right.

  • And also seeing beauty where other people see garbage.

  • And I'd rather be the person who sees beauty

  • than the person who sees garbage.

  • - Yep.

  • Well, when I look at you, I see beauty,

  • when most people see garbage.

  • And it's really unfair, Mr. Parrot,

  • that you keep saying that.

  • But all jokes aside, man,

  • I'm really grateful for your friendship,

  • and I'm really grateful for you are as a person.

  • Thank you so much for talking today.

  • Thank you so much for talking to me

  • throughout all these years.

  • Thank you for being who you are.

  • - You are welcome.

  • - Thanks for listening to this conversation

  • with Michael Malice.

  • To support this podcast,

  • please check out our sponsors in the description.

  • And now let me leave you with some words from André Gide.

  • "Man cannot discover new oceans unless he has the courage

  • to lose sight of the shore.

  • Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time."

- What's your opinion on my bird here, Mr. Parrot?

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Michael Malice: Thanksgiving Pirate Special | Lex Fridman Podcast #402

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    陳志忠 に公開 2024 年 03 月 08 日
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