So, we know that Iliad was written by Homer, right?(Sadhguru laughs).

A blind guy

he wrote that there are fourteen thousand horses.

But since we know that he could not have seen it for himself,

we believe that there is some sort of historical,

you know storytelling, going on there,

Would you say… but nowadays all the scriptures… religious scriptures are taken as gospel.

So should we also believe that there is

myth-making in the Ramayana, in the Mahabharata,

and that taking them as gospel,

rather than just work of literature, is wrong?

Sadhguru: I…I don't see anybody taking Ramayan and Mahabharata as a gospel!

Moderator: There are certain factions which are…

Sadhguru: No, no. They cannot, because

they'll get freaked out with confusion.

Because there are all kinds of people in Mahabharat.

The best sort of men, the worst sort of men, in-between every kind of man and woman

is there, over hundred thousand characters.

How can you make a gospel out of it?

So you said storytelling.

I don't know

if you've seen the by-line of Youth and Truth,

“Not the seriousness of gospel, but the playfulness of gossip,”

because gossip has always been reliable (Laughter).

No… at any time in history, nobody went by the official version.

Whatever the official version came,

people asked around with their friends and relatives,

“What happened?”

When five people said five different things,

people learnt out of their wisdom to extract some truth out of the gossip.

But people always relied more on the gossip, than the official version. Isn't it so?

It's not just today, always.

Moderator: However, given that this gossip can lead to a transformation of this truth

to an extent where it's lost forever,

do you think that's troubling?

Sadhguru: See, first of all, you are questioning did it actually happen, right?

Moderator: No, so we are saying that

the same argument which you have given

is the argument which is usually used these days to say that

buildings which were constructed by the Moghuls were actually not Moghul structures.

Sadhguru: Oh, okay (Laughs). I get the point. Moderator: However,

that's gossip being misinterpreted completely.

Sadhguru: (Laughs) Now…

See, if you come further South,

people are questioning whether Rama existed or not, okay?

This is a just a question of poor memory.

When the entire nation is been talking about it for thousands of years,

now the problem is,

your trust in the printed word is more than the spoken word,

that is the whole problem.

But you must understand, this is a oral culture.

We always transmitted most significant things orally.

You may… You may think it's insignificant because it's not written.

But anybody can write it down.

People have written it down now. Now it's a printed word.

But now somebody questions did Rama exist or not.

Not in one place, in entire culture,

when everybody is talking about the same story,

with minor variations here and there,

it could not have been just made up by all the people, isn't it?

Moderator: I guess… I guess his point was also, by bringing in the Iliad example, the same –

that the war on Troy did happen,

but the fact that Homer says that fourteen thousand horses were there,

is clearly not a truth.

Sadhguru: Maybe not.

Moderator: May be Ram did exist,

but are the facts which are the things which are …

Sadhguru: See, we are after all Indians. We invented zero.

We have certain freedom in using number of zeros (Applause).

We are taking liberty with that (Applause).

Don't…(Applause)

see, see, whether six, seven thousand years ago,

whether hundred thousand men fought or ten thousand men fought, doesn't make a difference.

The way the story is said in this country, is not for its facts, but for its truth.

You are trying to bring out a certain truth (Applause).

The fact of it – whether hundred thousand men fought, ten thousand men fought – what does it matter?

You don't have to manage that war today.

It's over (Laughter/Applause)!

So the important thing is,

what is there for me to learn from that? Alright?

If… If that's the question mark, we can go ahead with that.

Moderator: I guess that was his point itself.

That when you look at religious texts,

as you would learn from a piece of literature

Sadhguru: See, don't call them religious texts.

This is nation's history.

Moderator: Yes.

So let's say, if you look at another piece of literature, you would derive learnings from it.

Sadhguru: No. Literature is different. History is different (Laughter/Applause). Moderator: Okay.

Sadhguru: Literature… Literature can be fiction.

History is written in a dialectical way, so that it's always relevant for you.

I am saying, six-thousand years ago,

whether a man existed or not, what's my problem,

unless he has something to contribute to my life today, isn't it?

Moderator: However, if history has been written, and the facts of the history are not clear.

Sadhguru: See, this is what I am saying.

The fact is like this..

Suppose six-thousand years ago,

Rama had a wife whose name was not Sita.

What's my problem (Laughter)?

Moderator: We are not questioning whether the name was Sita,

Sadhguru: Not only the name. I am saying,

okay he was not his father's name was not that,

it was something else.

He was somebody else.

What does it matter to me? Moderator: We are even

questioning the sequence of events over here.

Sadhguru: You can. Moderator: About how .

Sadhguru: See, sequence of events also you can question.

But what I am asking is, a six thousand year old drama, if it got little mixed up, it is not your problem.

The problem is just this,

is there something for us to get from that?

Moderator: True.

Sadhguru: That's all the thing is.

Now why we are worshiping Rama (Laughs) in this country is,

he is not a super success.

He's a serial disaster (Laughter), if you look at it.

Yes!

Even today he is having real estate issues, that's why you brought this up

(Cheers/Laughter/Applause).

But it is not today alone… it's not today alone.

Right from the beginning of his life, he is in trouble and trouble and trouble and trouble (Laughter).

See, he is rightfully a king.

He is coroneted at the age of seventeen or eighteen.

He marries a princess,

and within one or two years, he is sent to the forest.

They didn't go to the jungle for picnic (Laughter),

as some of the television serials are showing, Rama-Sita doing all that (Laughter).

No. It is a…

It is a… like you know,

throwing him out of the kingdom, from his power and everything.

That itself would have shattered a man. But he settled down there.

Moderator: But Rama is also an insecure person,

who… when (Sadhguru Laughs)… when Sita came back to him,

first she sat through fire.

Sadhguru: We will… we will come there. Don't jump

Moderator: First she sat through fire... Sadhguru: First let's kidnap her, no

(Laughter/Applause)?

Moderator: Yes, yes, yes, please let's go by… Sadhguru: See, now you are changing (Laughs)…

See, now you are changing the sequence of things.

Moderator: No. no. Please go ahead. Sadhguru: First let's kidnap her.

Alright (Cheers/Laughter/Applause)?

Now...

Now, these Sri Lankan people come and kidnap his wife and go away.

After all… After all, he is a king.

If somebody steals his wife and takes her away, some three thousand kilometers down South…

there is no GPS to even find out where is Sri Lanka (Laughter),

all right?

At a time like that, being a king,

he could have found a local solution (Laughter).

There would be any number of women to marry the man. He is a king.

But, he goes in search of her, not with a big army

just him and his brother.

Like ordinary people.

If a man has to walk three thousand kilometers down South, not knowing where she is,

whether she is alive or dead or what's happened?

Then she must mean so much to him, yes or no?

Participants: Yes.

Sadhguru: Otherwise, why would a man walk that distance (Applause)?

Now, he goes there, he forms a Tamil army – don't forget this (Laughter).

And then there is a fight, kills hundreds of people, burns down a beautiful city,

gets back his wife, comes and settles down.

Before this, I will tell you –

he goes for a year of penance in Himalayas.

His brother asks, “Are you crazy?

This man stole your wife.

And now you're doing penance for his death?”

He said, he had ten basic qualities – Ravana.

“Killing those nine, which were horrendous qualities, I… no penance for me, no repentance for that.

But he was also a great devotee, and I killed that also.”

So one year of penance, the man goes for (Applause).

This is not a (Laughs)…

And then he settles down and his wife is pregnant.

You must understand, for a king, his wife is pregnant, means it's not just about a child,

it's a progeny for his empire and there are many things involved.

No sonogram, so he doesn't know

whether it's a girl or a boy, or boys or girls or anything.

But once again, a political situation evolves where he has to send his wife to the forest,

which you are saying is insecurity.

Moderator: Not that part,

so we can even begin from the first point, in which, after he rescues Sita,

Sita has to sit through a fire to prove that she is pure, right?

Sadhguru: For whom?

Moderator: So that other people will accept, because Rama cared about how people saw him.

Rama, when he came back, a random Dhobi in your kingdom said that,

“Sita, I am not like Ram

who will keep a woman in my house who might have a child which is not mine.”

For this, Rama sends away Sita again to the forest.

Moderator: At any point…

Sadhguru: That is the insecurity you are talking about?

Moderator: At any point Rama wanted his people to love him.

Sadhguru: No, no. Let's come to this properly.

Today in our country there are many kinds of things.

I am asking you – do you want a leader for this nation

who puts the people of this nation above his own family and his personal love?

I am asking you. Participants: Yes.

Sadhguru: Or do you want a Drudarastra – “At any cost, my son.”

You want a man who puts the citizens of this country above his family.

This is not just another woman for him.

He went and fought a battle for her, walked three thousand kilometers.

This is not just another woman.

He is living for her, but still,

he sends her back to the jungle when she is pregnant,

knowing fully well, that it could be his future for this kingdom.

And he is putting…

See, it is not just about a dhobi, this is what your mistake

you are taking these things literally.

When a dhobi said – what it is being said is, ordinary people are talking like this.

Ordinary people have no trust in the king,

that he's… she… he is just brought

some woman from somewhere

and he is made her our queen,

because queen is seen as a mother to the nation.

We don't want such a woman as our mother, that's what they are saying.

She went and lived with some man, somewhere.

This is what the people of those times are saying.

So, if the king says, “I don't care what you think, I love my wife and keep her,”

that would be not a good king, not a good administrator.

So he is putting his people above somebody that he loves very, very dearly,

and she is pregnant.

It's not a small thing for him. It means a world,

but still, he sends her to the jungle.

This should be bowed down to...

this is why we bow down to the man (Applause).