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  • All right am i uh am I on here oh okay great um good afternoon everyone welcome to the

  • uncommon core lecture uh the causes and consequences of the ukraine crisis my name is michael volchak

  • i attended the university from 1986 to 1991 i got a bachelor's in political science and

  • a masters in international relations Professor Mearsheimer was a tremendous influence on

  • my life um completely revolutionizing my worldview changed how i looked at international relations

  • politics just everything in fact he was such a big influence on my life that

  • whoops

  • that when i went home for the summer between one of the school years leaving my college

  • girlfriend here she gave me a little keepsake picture book and she said here to remember

  • the people you love and inside was a picture of her on the right and a picture of professor

  • mearsheimer on the left

  • that's true story um uh when i was here the two biggest things that for me were uh military

  • affairs and the model united nations of the university of chicago the student organization

  • that i co-founded in 1988 and at that time i discovered that you need a faculty advisor

  • in order to have a registered student organization um so of course i thought for about two seconds

  • and then i went to see professor mirsheimer and i'm not sure if he remembers this but

  • i asked him will you be our faculty advisor and he said i will sign the piece of paper

  • if i never have to do anything else after that so i had found my faculty advisor so

  • uh without further ado i would like to introduce the r wendell harrison distinguished professor

  • of political science Professor John J. Mearsheimer

  • Thank you very much for that kind introduction thanks all for coming out to hear me talk

  • uh the subject i want to talk about is the causes and consequences of the ukraine crisis

  • which of course has been in the news in a really big way since uh february 2014 and

  • indeed there was a big story uh on the civil war in eastern ukraine in the newspapers this

  • morning the outline i'd like to follow is i'd just like to make a number of preliminary

  • comments to give you some background on this crisis then i'd like to give you my thinking

  • on what caused the crisis then tell you why i think the conventional wisdom is wrong talk

  • a little bit about the west's response so far to the crisis which is just in my opinion

  • making a bad situation worse and tell you what i think should be done and then finally

  • wrap up with some discussion of the consequences so let me start with some preliminary comments

  • first with regard to america's core strategic interests for me core strategic interests

  • are areas of the world where you're willing to fight and die and in my opinion outside

  • of the western hemisphere which is of enormous strategic importance to us there are only

  • three areas of the world that really matter one is europe two is northeast asia and three

  • is the persian gulf and it's very important to understand that since this country got

  • its independence in 1783 europe has been the most important area of the world even though

  • the japanese attacked us at pearl harbor we had a europe first policy going into the war

  • and we had a europe first policy throughout the war and it's in large part because the

  • great powers in europe are more important than the great powers in northeast asia over

  • time of course the persian gulf was an important area because that's where the oil is and oil

  • is a critical resource that matters greatly in the international system so those are the

  • three most important areas outside the western hemisphere and again since the beginning of

  • this country europe has been number one you want to understand that we're undergoing a

  • fundamental shift shift of great importance asia because of the rise of china is going

  • to be the most important area of the world for the united states the persian gulf because

  • it's inextricably linked with asia oil flowing to india oil flowing to china the persian

  • gulf will be number two and europe will be a distant three we're basically leaving europe

  • in the rear view mirror and of course you want to keep this in mind because the ukraine

  • crisis is in europe and it involves nato

  • just had to think about the geography of europe this is a simple if not simplistic way of

  • thinking about it but here's a map you can see where ukraine is let's see where poland

  • is you can see where russia is the way i think about european security is there's france

  • germany poland ukraine and russia of course we're moving from west to east these are the

  • big kahunas these are the big countries that matter and of course the two countries that

  • matter the most historically are germany and russia or for most of the 20th century germany

  • and the soviet union and i put them in red because as you well know both germany and

  • the soviet union fought bitter wars in poland in ukraine and we could add in belarus as

  • well if need be but as we go along here you want to keep in mind that ukraine is right

  • next to russia and poland is right next to ukraine and then out further west is germany

  • and france take this a step further this is the ethnic breakdown of ukraine i'm going

  • to show you a number of maps all of which are designed to show you that ukraine is a

  • badly divided country and what's taking place inside ukraine today is in good part a civil

  • war and to that extent it doesn't have that much to do with what the russians or the west

  • are doing there and as you can see in red uh are mostly ukrainian-speaking people and

  • then as you move further east you're talking about lots of russians and certainly lots

  • of russian speakers uh this is the ukraine election of 2004. this is the election in

  • the wake of the famous orange revolution which i'll talk more about uh as you can see the

  • country is badly divided between the east and the west the russian speakers in the east

  • and ukrainian speakers in the west this is the 2010 election which resulted in yanukovych

  • getting elected i'll talk about president yanukovych as we go along he was elected in

  • 2010 and you can see there the voting patterns in the 2010 election look a lot like the voting

  • patterns in the 2004 election and then these are two recent surveys that came out from

  • the international republican institute that's here in the united states this one says if

  • ukraine could enter only one international economic union which of the following should

  • it be and of course the blue is the eu and the light blue is the customs union or actually

  • the red is the customs union of russia belarus and kazakhstan and the cities up at the top

  • are in western ukraine and the cities down the bottom are in eastern ukraine so you can

  • see very clearly that people in the west would like to join the eu people in the east have

  • little interest in joining the eu those are the eu numbers hear the nato numbers i mean

  • these two charts look virtually the same but all of this tells you that you have a badly

  • divided country and the conflict between the west and russia over ukraine is played out

  • in the context of this situation this is a simple little view graph that shows europe's

  • dependent on russian gas it's quite clear from that view graph that many of the countries

  • in eastern europe and even countries like germany are heavily dependent on russian natural

  • gas and of course that gives the russians lots of political leverage in this crisis

  • and it makes it very difficult for us to put pressure on the russians okay those are just

  • a number of preliminary comments i wanted to throw out just to set this up let's talk

  • about the causes of the conflict i think if you're going to talk about the causes of the

  • conflict you have to come at it from three different perspectives first of all you have

  • to ask what are the deep causes of the crisis what are the structural factors that underpin

  • this conflict then you have to talk about the precipitating causes because the crisis

  • broke out on february 22nd 2014. things were not terrible until february 22 2014 and that's

  • when everything went to hell in a hand basket and the question is what caused it then if

  • you focus on deep causes it can't tell you why something happened in february 2014 but

  • the precipitating causes are designed to get at that and then what we want to talk about

  • is the russian reaction why the russians did what they did with regard to crimea with regard

  • to eastern ukraine we want to talk about exactly what they did and then why they did it so

  • let's start with the deep causes my argument is that the west is principally responsible

  • for this mess not the russians this of course is not the conventional wisdom in the united

  • states and in fact except for steve cohen who's now at princeton i mean now at nyu he

  • used to be at princeton henry kissinger and maybe a handful of other people there are

  • not many people who agree with me but i i think the facts are quite clear on this that

  • the west is responsible and my aim is that the main deep causes the aim of the united

  • states and its european allies to peel ukraine away from russia's orbit and incorporate it

  • into the west our basic goal has been to make ukraine a western bulwark on russia's border

  • and russia says this ain't happening period end the story and we will do everything we

  • can to make sure it does not happen that's the deep cause now take it a step further

  • there are three key elements in our strategy the first is nato expansion and in many ways

  • the most important and i'll talk in some detail about that in a second but as you all know

  • since the cold war ended starting with the clinton administration we have been moving

  • nato eastward toward russia's border and the russians have said this is an absolute no-no

  • and i'll walk you through the story in a minute second is eu expansion eu expansion is all

  • about integrating ukraine economically into the west the way we are in the process of

  • integrating polling the czech republic slovakia the baltic states into the west and of course

  • we're doing that with nato as well these are two sets of institutions nato military institution

  • the eu and economic institution and the idea again is to take ukraine peel it away from

  • russia make it part of the west the third part of the story is fostering an orange revolution

  • this is all about promoting democracy in ukraine and in other places as you all know the united

  • states runs around the world trying to topple regimes and put in their place democratically

  • elected regimes and for almost all of you me included it's hard to be against promoting

  • democracy we all love democracy but if you're vladimir putin or if you're part of the leadership

  • in beijing when the united states talks about democracy promotion that means toppling your

  • regime and you won't be surprised to hear this they don't like that in beijing and they

  • don't like that in moscow right they do not like that

  • the chinese believe that we're behind the protests in hong kong you go to beijing you

  • talk to chinese elites the idea that we're promoting democracy around the world and especially

  • in east asia just drives them crazy because they think they're in the crosshairs and you

  • know what they are in the crosshairs because our basic strategy is to topple regimes all

  • over the world not simply because we like democracy but because we believe that whoever

  • gets elected will be pro-western so we're killing two birds with one stone we're promoting

  • democracy and getting leaders who are pro-american but again you can see the strategy here nato

  • expansion eu expansion and promoting democracy say a bit more about nato expansion because

  • it's so important uh nato expansion took place in two tranches the first one was in 1999

  • that's when you get poland the czech republic and hungary incorporated into nato the second

  • big tranche was in 2004 and that's when the baltic states you can see estonia latvia and

  • lithuania up top romania bulgaria these are the light brown countries that's the second

  • tranche of nato expansion now the soviets made it clear from the mid-1990s they were

  • adamantly opposed to nato expansion but number one they were too weak to do anything about

  • it and two it didn't involve the states that were right on their border i mean there's

  • no question as you can see from the map that latvia and estonia are on russia's border

  • and lithuania as well if you want to include that little enclave between poland and lithuania

  • but but the fact is these were very small states it was early in the game and the russians

  • were willing to live with it but then the big trouble starts and it comes in the famous

  • bucharest summit uh nato's bucharest summer in summit in april 2008 where at the end of

  • the summit a declaration is issued which says nato welcomes ukraine's and georgia's euro-atlantic

  • aspirations for membership in nato we agreed today that these countries will become members

  • of nato so the soviets the russians made this perfectly clear this was unacceptable russia's

  • deputy foreign minister said george's and ukraine's membership in the alliance is a

  • huge strategic mistake which will have most serious consequences for pan-european security

  • putin himself said georgia and ukraine becoming part of nato is a direct threat to russia

  • you all remember that there was a war between russia and georgia in august 2008 that war

  • was a consequence of this because the georgians thought we were sending them a signal that

  • they could get uppity with the russians and we would back them because they were going

  • to become part of nato that's not what and you know what happened the russians clobbered

  • the georgians and georgia is in deep trouble today because it thought it beca it could

  • become part of nato so you want to remember that april 2008 summit very important that

  • declaration very important and then what happens is you have a war so those are the deep causes

  • those three strategies nato expansion eu expansion and promoting democracy what about the precipitating

  • cause

  • key events leading up to the coup it's the coup of february 22nd 2014 that's of enormous

  • importance that's what really throws the crisis into gear just think about that word coup

  • orange revolution promoting democracy the coup february 22nd 2014. so the question is

  • what causes the code it all starts in november of 2013. at that point yanukovych president

  • yanukovych who's the head of ukraine is negotiating with e with the eu to form an association

  • agreement that brings the eu and ukraine much closer together it's a step in the direction

  • of incorporating ukraine into the european union or to put it in slightly different terms

  • incorporating ukraine into the west the russians make it clear that this is unacceptable russians

  • are willing to do a deal that involves the eu russia the imf and ukraine but the idea

  • that ukraine is going to do a deal exclusively with the eu and the russians are going to

  • be left out in the cold it's not something that putin is willing to countenance he puts

  • significant pressure on the ukrainians he offers them a terrific deal and as you can

  • imagine the eu is not offering ukraine a particularly good deal because you know how much corruption

  • there is in ukraine and the eu wants ukraine to eliminate that corruption which the ukrainians

  • really don't want to do so what putin does is not only make it clear that that deal is

  • not going to happen but he often just offers a sweetheart deal of his own so yanukovych

  • on november 21st says no to the eu this leads to a series of protests the ukrainian government

  • truth be told under yanukovych overreacts to the protests which causes them to spiral

  • out of control and in january of 2014 you can see there january 22nd 2014 you have your

  • first two deaths in the protest these are the maidan protests and then in the february

  • 18th through february 20th time period lots of people die it's really messy and what happens

  • is that a number of european foreign ministers the german foreign minister french foreign

  • minister they fly to kiev and a deal is worked out to have elections that will in effect

  • remove yanukovych from power

  • but the protesters refuse to accept the deal and there are significant fascist elements

  • among the protesters who were armed right there's killing on the maidan and as a result

  • yanukovych flees for his life to russia and this all happens on february 22nd and

  • oh did i not have that slide on i'm sorry one of the problems with this lectern is you

  • can't see i'm sorry there is that's the slide that has all the key events oh gosh sorry

  • i have two slides up here so i lost track of the fact so here are the key events after

  • the coup on february 23rd parliament votes to repeal minority language laws in the east

  • this is basically the russian language and then on february 27th russian units begin

  • seizing checkpoints in the crimea on the 28th additional russian forces begin moving into

  • the crimea the russians didn't conquer or invade crimea actually the russians didn't

  • invade crimea they were already there because they had a leasing agreement there's a naval

  • base at sevastopol and the russians were leasing that naval base from ukraine so they had military

  • forces there so when it says russian units begin seizing checkpoints on the 27th those

  • were russian units that were already there then additional russian forces begin moving

  • in on the 28th and then on the 6th the 16th and the 18th you have a scenario you have

  • a handful of events that lead to russia incorporating crimea and then of course shortly after that

  • conflict breaks out in eastern ukraine and although we do not have a lot of hard evidence

  • that the russians are physically involved in eastern ukraine i think it's quite clear

  • that they are physically involved that there are russian troops there how many is very

  • hard to tell from the outside and i think it's very clear that the russian government

  • is going to great lengths to make sure that those pro-russian forces in eastern ukraine

  • are interest are are capable of maintaining a certain amount of independence and i'll

  • talk more about this in a second okay understanding the russian response

  • what is the russian response two parts first is they took crimea and they're not giving

  • it back crimea is gone second is what they're doing is not trying to conquer ukraine there

  • are many people who say the russians are going to go on a rampage they're going to try and

  • reestablish the soviet union or a greater russia and so forth and so on uh that's not

  • going to happen uh putin is much too smart for that you remember what happened when the

  • russians invaded afghanistan you remember what happened when we invaded afghanistan

  • you remember what happened when we and reid invaded iraq you remember what happened when

  • the israelis invaded southern lebanon you want to stay out of these places in fact if

  • you really want to wreck russia what you should do is encourage it to try and conquer ukraine

  • putin again is much too smart to do that what putin is doing is he's basically in the process

  • of wrecking ukraine and he's telling the west in very simple terms you have two choices

  • you either back off right and we go back to the status quo ante before february 22 2014

  • where ukraine is a buffer state or you continue to play these games where you try and take

  • ukraine and make it a western bastion on their doorstep in which case will wreck the country

  • and they are of course now in the process of wrecking it right and they're going to

  • keep this conflict going for as long as they have to that's the basic game here again two

  • steps one took crimea no way they're going to ever let crimea become a nato base and

  • remember the name of the game here is to make ukraine part of nato not happening and they're

  • not getting crimea we've taken crimea we're keeping it number one and number two you want

  • a frozen conflict or you want to wreck ukraine so that it can't become part of the west question

  • number two here is what motivates this what motivates this is that russia is a great power

  • and it has absolutely no interest in allowing the united states and its allies to take a

  • big piece of real estate of great strategic importance on its western border and incorporate

  • it in to the west this should be hardly surprising to the united states of america as all of

  • you know we have a monroe doctrine the monroe doctrine basically says that the western hemisphere

  • is our backyard and nobody from a distant region is allowed to move military forces

  • into the western hemisphere i can tell from looking at the audience that most of you are

  • old enough to remember the cuban missile crisis like i am you remember how we went stark raving

  • crazy at the idea of the soviets putting military forces in cuba this is unacceptable nobody

  • puts military forces in the western hemisphere that's what the monroe doctrine is all about

  • can you imagine 20 years from now a powerful china forming a military alliance with canada

  • and mexico and moving chinese military forces onto canadian and mexican soil and us just

  • standing there and saying this is no problem we're all 20th 21st century people and worrying

  • about chinese forces there is with 19th century people like vladimir putin worry about of

  • course that's not going to happen we're going to maintain the monroe doctrine with regard

  • to china just as we did with the soviet union during the cold war so nobody should be surprised

  • that the russians were apoplectic about the idea of us putting ukraine on the western

  • side of the ledger and by the way they told us i gave you the quotes in the wake of the

  • bucharest summit i told you what happened in august 2008 with the georgia war the presidents

  • were there the rhetoric was there they told us but we did not stop our efforts to make

  • ukraine part of the west

  • and the russians responded was it surprising for some reason president obama and virtually

  • all of the elites in the west were surprised i guess this is because they're 21st century

  • people right and they think that balance of power politics doesn't matter anymore if you

  • think these people in washington and most americans are having trouble dealing with

  • the russians you you can't believe how much trouble we're going to have with the chinese

  • i'm very popular in china i go to china quite often and i usually start my talks by saying

  • it's good to be back among my people because when i'm in china i'm intellectually much

  • more at home there than i am in washington because in beijing much like in moscow you're

  • dealing with 19th century people like me whereas in washington you're dealing with 21st century

  • people i think the chinese are going to eat our lunch right

  • talk about the conventional wisdom conventional wisdom is that putin is the main cause of

  • the crisis some say he's either crazy or irrational angela merkel was making this argument for

  • a while he's bent on creating a greater russia and he bears marked resemblance to adolf hitler

  • say a few words about each of these uh i know a great deal about adolf hitler i've written

  • and i teach extensively on nazi germany's behavior in the 30s and during world war ii

  • the idea that he bears any resemblance to adolf hitler is laughable in the extreme it's

  • hard to believe that serious people make that argument the idea that he's bent on creating

  • a greater russia i think if he could do it he'd do it he can't do it russia is a declining

  • great power and as i said to you before if they were to try and create a greater russia

  • by invading ukraine and by invading the baltic states they'd be jumping into the briar patch

  • in fact again if you want to wreck russia what you should do is tell them to try and

  • create a greater russia it will lead to no end of trouble i think putin is much too smart

  • for that and he is in the process of wrecking ukraine i want to make that clear and he's

  • wrecking ukraine because he's basically saying to the west you can't have it and i'll wreck

  • it before you take it is he crazy or irrational i don't think so i think he's very strategic

  • and i don't think he's the main cause of the crisis as i said to you another set of arguments

  • associated with the conventional wisdom this is that the united states is a benign hegemon

  • seeking to promote european stability seeking to promote stability in asia all over the

  • globe and so forth and so on there are some countries like japan and germany for sure

  • poland who view the united states as a benign hegemon there are many countries out there

  • who do not iran is one china is another and russia is a third they just don't see it that

  • way and because they don't see it that way you should understand that when you take measures

  • you mean in the united states that you think are going to be interpreted as benign the

  • other side will not see them that way they will see them as threatening this gets back

  • to my point about democracy promotion we believe democracy promotion is an unalloyed good and

  • we can't understand why people like putin and the leaders in beijing don't understand

  • this but they don't understand it and if you don't recognize what other people think you're

  • incapable of putting yourself in their shoes you're going to get yourself into a heck of

  • a lot of trouble and of course that's exactly what happened here and then another argument

  • is that putin's behavior proves that it was wise to expand nato eastward to try to include

  • ukraine and georgia right what's very interesting is that there is no evidence that we thought

  • putin was aggressive before the crisis there's no evidence that we thought that there's no

  • evidence that we were talking about expanding nato because we had to contain the russians

  • because again nato expansion was driven by 21st century men and women they believe balance

  • of power politics is dead that's what happened here do you understand putin is a 19th century

  • man right he does view the world and balance parapoli in terms of balanced power politics

  • as do we when it comes to the monroe doctrine in the western hemisphere but in this case

  • in the case of europe we were thinking like 21st century men and women and we thought

  • that we could just drive right up to his doorstep and it wouldn't matter right we did not think

  • that russia was aggressive what happened here is that after the crisis broke out on february

  • 22nd we then decided that russia was aggressive we then decided that russia was bent on creating

  • a greater russia it was after the fact by the way this is why president obama and virtually

  • all of washington was caught with their pants down when this crisis broke out after february

  • 22nd because they did not see it coming

  • talk a little bit about our response we're basically doubling down uh we're getting tougher

  • and tougher with the russians that's our strategy and that's exactly what you'd expect if you're

  • going to blame them given that we're incapable of blaming ourselves because we never do anything

  • wrong you all know that all the problems in the world are caused by everybody else never

  • by the united states because we're a benign hegemon well if we're the good guys and they're

  • the bad guys and they're misbehaving they're bent on creating a greater russia oh my god

  • this is the 1930s all over again any sort of concession to putin is munich october 1938

  • can't do that so what you do is you double down you get tougher and tougher then this

  • brings us to the question of whether we can succeed or not my argument is you're playing

  • a losing hand right and the reason you're playing a losing hand is because this is a

  • competition between economic considerations and security considerations the basic mindset

  • of people in the west is that you can punish the russians economically and they'll throw

  • their hands up my argument is when security considerations are at stake when core strategic

  • interests are at stake and there's no question ladies and gentlemen in russia's case this

  • is a core strategic interest countries will suffer enormously before they throw their

  • hands up right so you can inflict a lot of pain on the russians and they're not going

  • to quit and they're not going to quit because ukraine matters to them and by the way ukraine

  • doesn't matter to us you understand there's nobody calling for us to fight in ukraine

  • even john mccain who up until recently has never seen a war he didn't want to fight okay

  • is not calling for using military force in ukraine what john mccain is saying is not

  • is that ukraine is not a vital strategic interest for the west that's what he's saying it is

  • a vital strategic interest for the russians they've made that perfectly clear and not

  • just putin right so in terms of the balance of resolve it's all on their side and i showed

  • you that slide up there that depicted how much economic leverage the russians have because

  • of all that natural gas going westward so we're playing a losing hand here but let's

  • assume that i'm wrong let's assume that we're playing a winning hand and that we are capable

  • of backing putin into a corner and we're getting close to pushing them off a cliff is this

  • good you're talking about a country that's got thousands of nuclear weapons and the only

  • circumstance really under which states use nuclear weapons is when they're desperate

  • when they think their survival is at stake so what you're talking about is putting putin

  • in a situation where he's desperate and if you go home and google putin and nuclear brinksmanship

  • you'll be reading all the articles that come up for the next two years right because he's

  • making it clear that you're fooling around with his core strategic interests and again

  • he's got thousands of nuclear weapons so you're putting yourself in a position right you're

  • putting yourself in a position where you're willing to risk a possible nuclear war over

  • a piece of real estate ukraine that is that is not a vital strategic interest to the united

  • states again it's not a vital strategic interest to us

  • by the way this will be my final point on this what's truly amazing about all of this

  • is that we were talking about incorporating ukraine into nato when we have now acknowledged

  • by not taking military action over ukraine that it's not a vital strategic interest you

  • understand that when you incorporate ukraine into nato you're giving them an article 5

  • guarantee which says you'll come to their defense if they're attacked you only give

  • article 5 guarantees to countries that are a vital strategic interest like germany during

  • the cold war what were we doing giving an article five thinking about giving an article

  • five guarantee to a country that's not a vital strategic interest it just shows you how discombobulated

  • american foreign policy is these days and of course the ukraine crisis is just one of

  • many messes that we've made as you know we have the midas touch in reverse there's nothing

  • that we do that doesn't go south afghanistan iraq libya ukraine i could go on

  • so the point i'm making to you is i do not think that this is going to work but if it

  • does work i'm not sure it's a good thing uh i had some quotes from the new york times

  • that really capture what we're doing i won't leave them up there but they make it very

  • clear that we're playing hardball with the russians this was times piece last year that

  • gave a good synoptic version of the obama administration's thinking on how to deal with

  • this crisis now what should be done my view is we should create a neutral ukraine which

  • is a buffer state between nato and russia basically what i'm talking about is going

  • back to the status quo ante before we got this foolish idea in our head that we could

  • peel ukraine away from russia and make it part of nato make it part of the eu make it

  • more generally part of the west we should work to create a situation where ukraine is

  • neutral and it's a buffer state just to go back to my simple or simplistic graphic depending

  • on your views right this is how i think about european security this is what you want you

  • want nato to include france germany and poland you want ukraine as a buffer state and then

  • you want russia on the eastern flank of that border state and this is not what you want

  • you do not want a divided ukraine where western ukraine is in nato eastern ukraine is in russia

  • and the russians and the americans who hate each other at that point are eyeball to eyeball

  • on the nepa river not a good idea how do you get to this end very simple explicitly abandon

  • nato expansion by the way nato expansion is dead i've talked to countless policy makers

  • who say this it's dead but what we have to do is explicitly abandon it say it is not

  • happening we have to fashion an economic rescue plan for ukraine that includes russia the

  • imf and the eu this of course is what putin wanted to do in 2013 and the eu said no foolishly

  • we want to go to great lengths to guarantee minority rights especially language rights

  • in ukraine this gets back to those maps that i was putting up that show that this is in

  • very important ways of civil war and what we have to do is dampen down the conflict

  • inside ukraine we have to give the people in eastern ukraine a lot of autonomy and we

  • definitely have to protect minority rights

  • are we going to do any of this no and i'll talk more about that in a second consequences

  • and this is my last slide will there be a new cold war no russia is not the soviet union

  • and as i said to you before we have a potential pure competitor on the horizon who could be

  • of proportions we've never seen before the chinese threat once it materializes is going

  • to be something like we've never seen we're going to have our hands full in asia europe

  • is not going to matter and russia is going to be with us the balancing coalition against

  • china is going to be south korea japan vietnam taiwan singapore india and russia the russians

  • will be with us and that's another reason this whole policy is so stupid right what

  • we're effectively doing is driving the russians into the arms of the chinese there's a great

  • strategy we need the russians on iran we need the russians on iran we drive the russians

  • close to the iranians just so they just sold the iranians has 300 anti-aircraft missiles

  • we need the russians on syria we need the russians on all sorts of issues we don't need

  • to have a fight with the russians now we don't we're not gonna have a cold war will the united

  • states still pivot to asia yes all we need is one big crisis out there it's common probably

  • in the south china sea sooner rather than later if you've been reading the newspapers

  • and once that happens we will focus laser-like on asia because that's a pure competitor russia

  • is not a pure competitor what are the implications for nato this gets back to the previous question

  • i think that nato is in serious trouble and will disappear as a functioning alliance over

  • time in large part because i think we're going to pivot to asia

  • what are the implications of all this for our asian allies it's a very interesting question

  • i was in japan in december of 2014 and the japanese like a lot of people in asia number

  • one wonder whether we're going to be there for them right because they see us causing

  • trouble over ukraine they see us picking a fight with isis and they say if the united

  • states is fighting isis dealing with the russians over ukraine they're going to be able to pivot

  • to asia and then furthermore they say even if the united states does pivot can we trust

  • them if you look at how this gang operates in washington it does look like the gang that

  • can't shoot straight do we want to depend on them if you're japanese and you're depending

  • on the american security umbrella especially the american nuclear umbrella don't you scratch

  • your head and say can i rely on washington in a crunch with the chinese over the cincaco

  • or diao islands not clear so i think this has not been good for our relations with our

  • asian allies what are the implications for iran and syria as i said before remains to

  • be seen we need the russians on iran we need the russians on syria and you take a stick

  • and you poke the russians in your in the eye and you continue to poke them in the eye they're

  • going to look for ways to retaliate and i wouldn't be surprised if somewhere down the

  • road they don't play ball with us on iran we don't get a deal with the iranians be interesting

  • to see what the russians then do see if they're interested in maintaining a sanctions regime

  • and syria is a total mess as you know and if there's any hope of resolving that the

  • russians are going to have to be involved and again it's going to be hard to get a lot

  • of cooperation given what's going on over ukraine is crimea lost to russia for good

  • yep it's gone gone what are the implications for ukraine this is in many ways the most

  • important part of my talk and i'll just take two or three minutes now we can go to q a

  • when i give this talk many people in the west think that there's sort of a deep-seated immoral

  • dimension to my position because i'm blaming the west and not putin who certainly has authoritarian

  • or thuggish tendencies there's no question about that but i actually think that what's

  • going on here is that the west is leading ukraine down the primrose path and the end

  • result is that ukraine is going to get wrecked and i believe that the policy that i'm advocating

  • which is neutralizing ukraine and then building it up economically and getting it out of the

  • competition between russia on one side and nato on the other side is the best thing that

  • could happen to the ukrainians what we're doing is encouraging the ukrainians to play

  • tough with the russians we're encouraging the ukrainians to think that they will ultimately

  • become part of the west because we will ultimately defeat putin and we will ultimately get our

  • way time is on our side and of course the ukrainians are playing along with this and

  • the ukrainians are almost completely unwilling to compromise with the russians and instead

  • want to pursue a hardline policy well as i said to you before if they do that the end

  • result is that their country is going to be wrecked and what we're doing is in effect

  • encouraging that outcome i think it would make much more sense for us to neutral to

  • work to create a neutral ukraine it would be in our interest to bury this crisis as

  • quickly as possible it certainly would be in russia's interest to do so and most importantly

  • it would be in ukraine's interest to put an end to the crisis thank you

  • i'll be happy to take questions i'll just ask people if you would stand up and just

  • identify yourself quickly ma'am oh you have why don't we get this woman right here with

  • the peach colored coat on

  • they have a microphone they have they have a microphone for you and there stood hands

  • morgenthal right before you for those of us who knew okay so many questions or points

  • first point of information when you talk about the gang in washington you need to make it

  • clear hopefully that you don't mean only the present gang you mean from at least 2008 forward

  • right yeah i mean the whole washington

  • republicans democrat as far as i'm concerned the republicans and the democrats on foreign

  • policy are like tweedledee and tweedledum right right i mean for anybody who thinks

  • it matters whether you get hillary clinton or some republican you're living in a dream

  • world there's just no meaningful difference between them they both have the midas touch

  • in reverse that leads to my second question is anybody listening to you and stephen cohen

  • and partial um what's the one i want uh the kissinger partial kissinger stephen cohen

  • and you is anybody listening that we could hope to vote for or support i don't i don't

  • no no no one no one so and i'm gonna i'm gonna give this up in a moment no but um so there's

  • no one so we're really doomed that's it right okay i mean there's no enlightenment in store

  • we can't even say something just in response to your question i believe that since 1989

  • the united states has been by far the most powerful state on the planet and for those

  • of you who believe we live in a unipolar world you're effectively saying that we are the

  • only great power in the system and given that tremendous amount of power that we have we're

  • really free to go out and do all sorts of foolish things because it doesn't blow back

  • on us in any meaningful way the united states is a remarkably secure great power so we're

  • allowed to pursue these foolish policies and in that context it's very hard to make arguments

  • against the establishment that carry the day i think what will happen if china continues

  • to rise is that it will force the united states to think more strategically because when you

  • live in a serious threat environment the point i'm making to you is that the united states

  • does not live in a serious threat environment we're an incredibly secure country we're the

  • most secure country most secure great power in the history of the world and we're more

  • secure today than we have ever been in our entire history despite all the the rhetoric

  • that you hear from washington and in the media about how dangerous the world is this is just

  • not a serious argument it's not a dangerous world right we are incredibly secure we have

  • a pure competitor it will force us to focus the mind much the way happened when the soviet

  • union was there nazi germany was there imperial japan imperial germany really enjoyed your

  • lecture i have two questions briefly uh it's hard to take issue with the goal of a neutral

  • ukraine but some years before the crisis broke out i used to listen rui which was radio ukraine

  • international on shortwave and they were fairly open about the cultural crisis within the

  • country leading back a few years before this as i look at say the former czechoslovakia

  • do you see a possibility of two neutral states formerly known as ukraine as non-viable and

  • if so why yeah if you look at what happened in europe after world war ii yugoslavia broke

  • up into a series of remnant states czechoslovakia as you pointed out broke up into a series

  • of remnant states and the soviet union itself broke up into a series of remnant states and

  • that's because inside of those territorial boundaries you had different nations that

  • wanted their own states serbs croats in the case of yugoslavia czech slovaks in the case

  • of czechoslovakia and we know that there were probably 15 or 16 different groups inside

  • of the former soviet union so the question is inside ukraine do you have a similar situation

  • between the people in the east and the people in the west i think if you look at the survey

  • data it still shows that the majority the clear majority of ukrainians in both the west

  • and the east want to maintain the integrity of ukraine they don't want to split ukraine

  • in half i think we should do everything we can to maintain that attitude among the ukrainian

  • people my great fear is that as time goes by and the animosity continues to grow that

  • you may reach a point where there is a lot of sentiment to just break eastern ukraine

  • and western ukraine off from each other and end up with two ukraines but i don't see that

  • happening now second and final question as we look at parts of our recent additions to

  • nato hungary romania bulgaria and look at where their political systems are careening

  • has nato lost the moral imperative for its reason to being well i mean what we tried

  • to do with nato expansion uh and with eu expansion and with democracy promotion was to turn all

  • of europe into one giant security community in which all of the member states were liberal

  • democracies that were hooked on capitalism and deeply embedded in these institutions

  • and would therefore obey the rules that define the institution and we would all live happily

  • ever after that was the goal and i think everybody understood that western europe looked terrific

  • on all of those dimensions and what we're going to try and do is expand extend these

  • institutions eastward and consolidate democracy in countries like hungary and poland and we

  • were going to make them look more like western europe over time we had some success and there's

  • some failures and if you talk to most people who study europe today and spend lots of time

  • over there they're quite pessimistic about where europe is headed not only regarding

  • eastern europe but also with regard to western europe uh and i'm not sure in you know 25

  • years what it'll all look like i mean in my opinion the biggest issue is demographic and

  • that is that europeans have not been making lots of babies for a long time and as a result

  • they're going to have to import lots of people and these are countries that do not have a

  • rich history of integrating people in a smooth way much the way the united states does and

  • it's no accident i think that you're now beginning to see the rise of far-right parties all across

  • europe because of all of the immigration so one could paint a pretty bleak picture about

  • europe's future but the counter to that would be we've now got all those countries like

  • romania right like the czech republic like slovakia embedded in these institutions and

  • these institutions will go to great lengths to combat those tendencies and in maybe a

  • more incremental way uh facilitate the spread of liberal democracy and capitalism we'll

  • see whether that happens or not but people today are nowhere near as optimistic as they

  • were in the early 1990s when it looked like we had the wind at our back and uh everything

  • was going to play out over time in favor of the west and especially in favor of the united

  • states you all remember frank fukuyama's very famous piece the end of history right which

  • i think reflected that optimism when the soviet union was losing the cold war and about to

  • collapse but times have changed

  • you said quote we're going to have our hands full with china and so just two questions

  • what kind of a time frame are you thinking things might start to really happen in that

  • direction and can you just paint a few scenarios of the sort of things that you think might

  • happen when we have our hands full with china so we know what what we can look forward to

  • yeah yeah

  • uh i think when you think about china at this point in time there are three uh situations

  • that stand out one is taiwan two is the south china sea which has been in the newspaper

  • a great deal over the past few months chinese basically claim that they control all the

  • south china sea and as you know they're building airfields on reefs in the spratly islands

  • and we've told them that's unacceptable and their neighbors the vietnamese the philippines

  • think that's unacceptable so the south china sea is a potential flashpoint taiwan is a

  • second flashpoint and the third flashpoint which was in the news earlier this year and

  • for much of 2013 and 2014 are those rocks in the east china sea the japanese call them

  • the senkaku islands the chinese call them the diao islands and as i was saying to you

  • folks before i was in japan in december of last year december 2014 and it's really quite

  • amazing how worried the japanese are about china and part of it is sort of for realpolitik

  • reasons but it's also because the chinese say those islands which the japanese consider

  • to be sacred territory really belong to china and the japanese are greatly fearful that

  • as china gets more powerful it'll take those islands so those are the three main flash

  • points at the time there are other possible scenarios that we worry about the korean peninsula

  • is one because the chinese are allied with the north koreans we're allowed allied with

  • the south koreans china and india they have a border conflict so we go on and on but those

  • are the big three now your question about the time frame is an excellent one i used

  • to say that it'll take another 10 15 years before china becomes powerful enough for this

  • problem to manifest itself i'm not sure about that i think it's it's possible it's not likely

  • i'm choosing my words carefully i think it's possible that you could have a conflict involving

  • the united states and china over the south china sea or over the cincaco slash diago

  • islands uh in the next year or so uh i mean those those problems are on the front burner

  • and it's basically a zero-sum game i mean either the chinese owned the senkaku diago

  • islands or the japanese do so we could have trouble out there much sooner than i uh have

  • anticipated up to now

  • you talked about this from the point of view of illogical international relations what

  • do you think of the internal pressures on these countries putin has a historically restive

  • population highly nationalistic and in major economic troubles now he may be responding

  • to pressure from his own population to deal with this on a smaller scale we see netanyahu

  • responding to his population settlers and so on and disrupting part of the middle east

  • do you see that happening here with the radical right say and the neocons influencing uh washington

  • policy

  • uh i think just with regard to the united states and the neoconservatives i think the

  • neoconservatives have been one of the principal driving forces behind america's foolish foreign

  • policy since 2001 but as i made as i said before when i was talking about the republican

  • party looking like the democratic party there's not a lot of difference between the neoconservatives

  • and the liberal imperialists the liberal imperialists are the aggressively oriented democrats and

  • neoconservatives are the aggressively oriented republicans but they look a lot like tweedledee

  • and tweedledum so the neoconservatives matter for sure and they mattered during the george

  • w bush administration because he was a republican president but it's not just the neo-conservatives

  • right and the fact is that you have a foreign policy establishment here that is interested

  • in intervening all over the world you have a foreign policy establishment that's filled

  • with people who believe that we have a right and a responsibility to intervene all over

  • the planet and that leads to unending trouble when you don't have the magic formula for

  • winning the wars that you get into see the problem that we have is we have this interventionist

  • foreign policy that leads to us losing all the time it's really quite remarkable but

  • but just with regard to your point about ideology uh i think you do not want to underestimate

  • how important nationalism is both in the chinese context and in the russian context you're

  • alluding to the russian case but let me just say a few words about the chinese case and

  • this is why getting back to this gentleman's previous question i worry so much now about

  • japan and china getting into a shooting war over the rocks in the east china sea the problem

  • that the chinese face is that communism which is the governing ideology no longer has much

  • legitimacy and they've had to find the substitute ideology and by almost all accounts the substitute

  • ideology is nationalism right and at the core of chinese nationalism is what's known as

  • the century of national humiliation chinese nationalism emphasizes that between roughly

  • 1850 and 1950 that hundred year period china was humiliated and it was humiliated by the

  • european great powers the united states with the open door policy and especially by japan

  • and the chinese are really just angry about this and because nationalism is so important

  • for legitimizing the rulers in beijing right this whole theme of national humiliation is

  • front and center well if you have a crisis over some islands in the east china sea and

  • that crisis involves japan mainly but also the united states and you're talking about

  • the two countries that have humiliated china during that hundred year period the potential

  • for trouble is great and i know a number of scholars in china who are quite dovish who

  • really worry about a crisis in the east china sea spinning out of control because of the

  • confluence of chinese nationalism and japanese nationalism which i've not talked about so

  • nationalism is a very powerful force not just in the russian case but in the chinese japanese

  • case as well

  • hi i'm uh adam chekhov actually i just graduated last year and could you talk a little louder

  • sorry hi i'm adam chekhov i graduated last year also thank you for signing the piece

  • of paper that allowed for molly one to exist as someone who participated in mun for all

  • four years but uh uh two questions one uh this is pretty quick you talked about like

  • russia offered ukraine a deal involving uh russia the eu the imf uh ukraine can you like

  • lay well the specific terms of that deal and in 2013 2013 when they offered them the deal

  • and two this is a little more in depth what's the first question though or the terms of

  • the deal exactly the terms of the deal russia outline the terms of the deal yes if you if

  • i i don't know i honestly don't know what the terms of the deal were okay well then

  • we'll just skip that one but okay i guess the impression that i've had is that like

  • you do have several well certainly the us is trying to back rush into a corner you do

  • have several like uh people in germany like i especially uh mostly in merkel's a coalition

  • partner of the s b day like a in their cabinet think sigma gabriel is one who is pushing

  • for like a more diplomatic solution towards the ukraine crisis so in the long term can

  • you see like potentially germany which is at this point europe's one of their most powerful

  • states potentially like serving in this crisis medically speaking as the yeah sort of the

  • good cop to us's bad cop so to speak yeah this is this is a great question as you all

  • know germany is the most powerful country in europe uh and i showed you the map where

  • i told you that germany and russia were of enormous importance for thinking about ukraine

  • so the question is how do the germans think about this initially when the crisis first

  • began after the february 22nd coup i thought the germans would prevail on the americans

  • to behave smartly and to slowly but steadily just back off and work out some sort of deal

  • very importantly you remember i told you about the famous april 2008 bucharest conference

  • and i told you what was said in the final declaration that ukraine and georgia would

  • become part of nato it's very important to understand that the reason that we did not

  • take concrete steps during the bucharest crisis to move to include ukraine and georgia was

  • because of german and french but mainly german resistance angela merkel angela merkel said

  • bringing ukraine and georgia into nato is a prescription for disaster the united states

  • though prevailed on getting that statement in the final declaration that i read to you

  • so based on that i thought the germans would play a key role in tamping down american enthusiasm

  • for doubling down i proved to be wrong and uh if anything angela merkel has been a bit

  • more aggressive towards the russians than president obama has it's really quite striking

  • and therefore i don't hold out much hope for the germans one final point i would make about

  • this i've actually spoken on this subject in germany in early march i was in germany

  • i was in frankfurt and i was in berlin talking to different groups and my view of the germans

  • is that as a consequence of world war ii the germans don't want to be out front on any

  • issue the germans to put it rather crudely are afraid to look at themselves in the mirror

  • right and the idea of them taking the lead it horrifies them across the entire political

  • spectrum so my message to the germans when i talked to them was they should be more [ __

  • ] when they talk to the americans they should tell the americans more emphatically that

  • they're wrong and we should be doing this instead of that and that line of argument

  • gets remarkably little traction because again the germans just they don't want to get too

  • far out front on this so i don't see much hope uh that things will change final point

  • i'd make on this what i find very striking about this whole situation as i was saying

  • before i think you know steve cohen henry kissinger me and there are a handful of other

  • people my friend steve walt who've kind of been arguing the position that i laid out

  • for you here today but we're definitely in the minority a tiny minority and what i find

  • very interesting is the extent to which the media here and the media in europe parrot

  • the conventional wisdom and the extent to which it's very difficult for people who represent

  • the position i've staked out to be heard right so in europe you have this situation it's

  • especially true in germany i don't read german but just talking to people when i was there

  • about you know how the media is dealing with this the conventional wisdom that i laid out

  • for you is omnipresent in the media and and that makes it very hard to turn this one around

  • so i'm not optimistic that there's any chance this is going to change our policy is going

  • to change which i think is a tragedy as i said before and also it contradicts my earlier

  • enthusiasm about angela merkel which is what you were getting at

  • oh i'm sorry i'm nell smith uh class of 85 college hey julius see you later um um about

  • the bucharest directly i have a friend that was teaching in russia this summer and said

  • that people were just for those i speak russian and been to soviet union and and and then

  • post i mean suddenly it's not you're no longer a rock star now apparently if you're american

  • and you're on the streets of moscow like we we're used to people my age um she said people

  • were coming up to her saying what are you doing why you and the germans have caused

  • all of this you got all these rebels and ukraine you you know you organized them secretly in

  • kiev and it was kind of but now listening to you it's like that's actually not that

  • far off it sounds like i mean not we didn't organize them but basically we kind of told

  • them yeah go ahead because we're going to help you right is that okay well let me make

  • a couple points very important points with regard to my response to the gentleman who's

  • directly behind you about nationalism this is russian nationalism coming to the fore

  • and a lot of what you see in the american case is american nationalism coming to the

  • fort you've all heard the famous saying or infamous saying my country right or wrong

  • right and uh they're just all sorts of russians you know who are furious at the west and they're

  • rallying around putin one of the reasons that many people think that putin started this

  • whole thing was because

  • it so improved his standings in the polls or with the russian public because people

  • behaved the way you said so people said he started this crisis for that reason but my

  • point to you is we should be hardly surprised and this gets back to the china japan example

  • you know and this is a very scary dimension to a lot of these conflicts but i just want

  • to say one other thing i teach i've done all the research for a book on the german killing

  • machine in world war ii i know a great deal about who the germans killed how they killed

  • them and so forth and so on uh some of you here have probably taken my course war on

  • the nation state where i talk about the origins of the holocaust the origins of the war on

  • the eastern front killing of soviet pows and so forth and so on but my estimate is that

  • hitler murdered this is not killed in combat hitler murdered 22 million people uh and if

  • you look at how that war played itself out in places like ukraine

  • there were people in ukraine who sided with the germans and the vast majority of people

  • of course fought against the germans but the consequences of that war are inextricably

  • bound up with what's going on now and the mere fact that there are you know some reasonably

  • small number but nevertheless some fascists real fascists involved in kiev just spooked

  • the russians like you would not believe right and a lot of those fascists and people on

  • the far right hate the soviet union for all the obvious reasons see the soviet union slash

  • russia as largely responsible for all the killings that took place in ukraine on the

  • part of the soviet union not the germans right war history coming in so what's going on inside

  • ukraine is inextricably bound up with world war ii and then the point that i tried to

  • make to you although i didn't develop it at length is that nato which is a cold war institution

  • right is inextricably bound up with the cold war and from a russian point of view this

  • military alliance moving up to its doorstep which was a mortal foe for 45 years is gonna

  • spook you and if you have a coup in kiev and some of the people who come to power have

  • fascist tendencies or are fascists however you want to find that term it's going to have

  • really huge consequences right so this is this is an incredibly messy situation and

  • in the context of all this what we've done is doubled down and we do not pay much attention

  • to history because it was not a history that concerned us in any meaningful way because

  • it was on the eastern half of the european continent but the potential for trouble here

  • is just very very great

  • One more no more i can't take any more questions so you'll have to ask me afterwards i'll answer

  • your question afterwards Mike told me that.

All right am i uh am I on here oh okay great um good afternoon everyone welcome to the

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Why is Ukraine the West's Fault? Featuring John Mearsheimer

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    李泓锋 に公開 2022 年 04 月 30 日
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