team, including Luc Longley. And I'm curious, what did you think about Luc at that stage?

I didn't really have any preconceived ideas. I mean, I knew he was on the team. I was anxious

to understand who my team-mates were. My mindset was to go, you know, try to get back and win.

You know, any time that you know, when I left in 93, I left on top in terms of winning.

I was coming back in 95 halfway in the season and still my mentality was about winning.

Now granted physically I wasn't prepared for winning at that time because I had a baseball

body, but ... it took me a while to understand my team-mates understand, you know, their

motivations. You had to understand that when I started with the Bulls, you know, it was

five thousand people in the stands, so, you know, it was like playing to an empty arena,

you know, and when these guys are coming in, the arena has been sold out for six years,

you know, so I wanted them to understand, you know, and Luc to understand as well as

Jud Buechler and Steve Kerr and all the guys that were new, where we transformed from so

that you can feel that energy and you can understand what it feels like playing in front

of the fans who for years were always believing that ahh we wait till next year, we wait till

next year. Well, we were the team that was on top now. I thought it was very important

for them to understand that that history and that dynamic about what what the Bulls actually

experienced and I experienced. So I felt compelled once I got to know those guys to kind of push

them to understand, OK, we're not in the bottom anymore, we're on top, and when you're on

top, everybody's coming at you. So you have to be prepared. You've got to be ready to

play.

And do you think Luc was ready. Did you think he had what it took to work with you to win

a championship again?

I didn't know. I think what would ... I think Luc can answer that a little bit better than

I can. I felt the need to push him. I know at that time they hadn't won. A lot of those

guys had never won in terms of the, you know, a world championship or something of that

magnitude. And so I knew it was going to take it takes some learning for them to understand

that. That's where my role became very vital to lead and to give them that, you know, that

that knowledge that they need along with Phil, obviously. Phil was, you know, the leader

but in terms of basketball leadership, when I say I led, I led based on, you know, physically,

you know, I get out there, first one there, last one to leave, work on my skill set, blah,

blah. You know, listen to what the coach, try to, you know, do whatever the coach is

asking. That was the leadership that I wanted everyone to see and then reinforce it with

my voice when I felt the necessary need to do so. So I felt that, you know, no, I don't

think Luc had the mentality of what it took to win, but I think he earned that over the

years that we played together. And obviously, you know, following our leadership - Phil,

myself, Scottie, you know, just so that he can understand what it would take and how

his skill set could fit.

So what sort of skills did he need to develop and was it skills or attitude or both?

I think it was both. You know, he had the skill set, you know, seven-footer, pick and

pop, shoot, rebound, block shots. Defensively understood exactly what to do, set great screens.

But the mindset of being able to do that every single night, do that against teams that were

more physical and teams that are less physical. It was the mindset that I felt like Luc had

to learn, and I think he did learn, you know, and we all had had to learn over the period

of our careers. And, you know, but when we were going against the teams like New York

Knicks, you know, Indiana Pacers, Miami Heat, you know, it's a certain mentality that those

teams are being coached at. We had to match that, if not surpass that. And I think that

was the growth of what Luc had to learn.

And Luc was the first Australian in the NBA, what did you think of his Australian-ness?

Laid-back. I never seen Luc mad, to be honest, and he is his personality, is that he you

know, every day, g'day, mate. You know, you feel that warmth coming from him and you know,

and that's good. You know, it's good to have that mentality and feel like, you know, you're

very fortunate each and every day. And you wake up, you enjoy your life. You know, you

live it by the moment. But there's times when you have to push yourself a little bit and

that, you know, you want to see that frustration. You want to see a little bit of anger. And

Luc did at times, you had to do a little pushing to get that. But his mentality is that, you

know, he just enjoys being around people. He is he is that gentle giant. You know, he's

always been big, you know, wherever he was growing up and being around. So it's quite

naturally he always wants to feel welcome and wanted to, you know, connect with someone,

you know, maybe a smaller person or, you know, anybody. That's a great trait to have. Also,

that trait has to be adjusted, especially when you're in competition, you know, because

you want that dominance to be shown. You want that intimidation to be shown in competition.

It's not a negative thing. It's always a positive thing in terms of, you know, how you utilise

it. But, you know, it took a while for him to get to that.

So he had to toughen up?

You had to show him a little tough love, you know, that's what I call it, tough love and,

you know, great. I loved him as a team-mate. You know, I think that, you know, any day

that I felt frustrated and angered, I can look at Luc and know that, you know what?

It's not that hard, it's not that, you know, this is not, you know, life or death, you

know, he simplifies things and his his whole mentality is to do that. And that's his personality.

And it's good to have people around that can do that. You know, when you have people like

myself who are somewhat aggressive, you know, we live in every moment, you know, we want

to dominate every little moment and we forget about how simple life is, how simple the moment

may be. This is where he was a great, you know, a great team-mate and helped me mature

as a person.

A balance to your intensity sometimes?

You're absolutely right, absolutely right.

OK, so what did you think were Luc's strengths and what did you think Luc's weaknesses were?

His strength was he could shoot, you know, he was very smart, good passer. Physically,

you know, he uses his body very well in terms to rebound and position. His weakness was

I would say, you know, making sure that mentality-wise to be aggressive, you know, you know, have

that killer instinct, you know, in that, you know, you want to dominate, you know, and

there's times where I had to push him on that, you know, and, you know, and he received it

well, I mean, you know, it wasn't as if, you know, it was a constant resistance or I felt

it necessary the need the necessary need to do it every time we played. No, it was you

know, it was a process that, you know, when you win and you learn, you apply that over

a period of time. And with Luc, he did. But his strong points, his athleticism, he didn't

have the athleticism as most bigs, but he had the smarts. You know, he he knew how to

position himself well. He knew he he knew how to play against someone like a Patrick

Ewing, who he knew was far more gifted athletically. But he was able to utilise his strength, which

is shooting on the perimeter post up using his left, his right hand, his physicality

to, you know, to at least make himself known, you know, and it was up to us to complement

him, you know, make him as important as a Patrick Ewing in situations where he could

dominate or he can actually, you know, lead us. And we did that. You know, I think Phil

did a good job in trying to gauge Luc's motivation that per game. Let's just say we started the

game and obviously our focus is to go inside and we were going to Luc early and Luc knew

that and if Luc felt compelled that or he felt like he was into the game, he can give

us that, you know you know, that that lift that we needed from that inside play. If not,

then, you know, we would have to go the other, you know, other routes to try to assert ourself

as a team.

Were there times that you were aware that Luc was finding some of your criticisms quite

tough.

Yeah, I felt that I mean, and you know that, look, I think it was a lot of situations where

people were somewhat critical in terms of the way that I perceived it. And, you know,

but I had a mission, you know, I wanted them to understand what it took to win, you know,

and winning has a price. And the thing is, is that, you know, I wanted to make sure they

were prepared for the worst, you know, especially in competition. And, you know, they're I'm

pretty sure there were times they were not happy with me. I think if you look back now,

I'm pretty sure they are, you know, based on how we achieved and with the successes

that we, you know, we were able to to overcome. And but, you know, as a leader, you know,

you sometimes you don't you're not going to be well liked. You're not going to be, you

know, but you have to pull them along, you know, because, you know, you've experienced

it, you understood it. The other side of that road is success. And I think, you know, the

gratification would be there once we get over that hill. And I felt that and I can sense

some of that coming from from my team-mates. But, you know, the thing is, is that we for

us to be successful, someone had to do that, you know, especially from a leadership world.

Did you sometimes wish that you didn't have to be like that?

Yes. Yes, only because I felt like, you know, everybody, you would you would assume that

everybody had the same mentality that I had and that every day, you're the first one in

the gym last when they leave, you know, you live within the moment. You know, you strive

to be strive for perfection each and every time you step on the basketball court. But

unfortunately, everybody don't have that same mentality. And if they did, then makes my

job so much easier. It's like looking at, you know, a mirror of 11 or 12 people, you

know, and unfortunately, the world is not made that way. And, you know, sometimes you

have to push, pull or do whatever you need to to get over that hill, you know, and the

gratification is always going to be in the work and once the work is done and you can

see where the achievement has has been met, you know. So, yeah, I wish, you know, I could

have, you know, laid back and enjoyed it as much as everybody else. But that not that

didn't guarantee us success. You know. That didn't say we're going to win, you know. You

know, so I had to do what I had to do.

Over the years that you played together, did your opinion of Luc change? Did you enjoy

playing together by the end of those years and come to value what he gave to the team?

I did. I valued it and I also understood how to get it, get it out of him. You know, how

to challenge him, you know, as a team-mate, you know, and the thing is and I think Luc

understood, you know, he understood that, you know, if he if he mixed, he missed that

box out then he's going to hear, you know, obviously some verbal, you know, words coming

from me, from, you know. The expectations were so totally different. Once he proved

that he could do it, the task is to do it every single night, you know, that's the thing,

you know, and that's why I felt like I knew you was capable. We all felt he was capable.

But you have to be capable every single night for us to maintain success. So I pushed him.

Obviously, I did. And verbally, you know, I would challenge him in certain situations

where I felt like you know, Luc, you just you're not you're not doing what we expect

you to do, you know? And I would welcome that to for my, you know, if they see that I was

doing something that they pretty much expected and I was taking shortcuts, which wasn't too

often, I'm pretty sure that I was open. You know, Phil would criticise me, you know, other

team-mates would criticise me. And, you know, the purpose of improving and the purpose of

being a good team-mate and the purpose of being a good team is we all had to look in

the mirror and understand, OK, what can I do better to make this team better? You know,

and we also have to be willing to accept constructive criticism. Nothing personally, you know, we

hung out. We have fun. You know, we would joke around, you know, it's nothing personal.

But in competition, when you're trying to, you know, exceed and be successful, we have

to hold each other accountable. That's what team-mates do. And and it's nothing really

personal about it.

Luc admits that consistency was his big issue, and he that he struggled with it and you struggled

with the fact that he wasn't consistent enough.

Yeah, it was times like that. And I give you a good example. He may not like this story

in 98 we're playing the Utah Jazz. Did he ever tell you this? Did he tell you this story?

What story is this going to be?

Utah Jazz, Scottie Pippen was out, you know, and we knew we just played Utah in the finals

the year before. So every game we play against Utah is a message. You want to send a message.

So he is ... I go to Luc at the beginning of the game, I say, look Luc, we have to we

got you have to establish yourself inside. You have to dominate. We're going to come

to you early. You're going to really got to set the tone for us because we don't have

Scottie. It's me and Dennis and you. So he understood that. He knew the importance of