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In this episode of MarieTV, we do have some adult language, so if you have a little ones
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around grab your headphones now.
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Hey.
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It's Marie Forleo, and you're listening to the Marie Forleo Podcast.
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You know, today's culture is one that's filled with fear, scarcity, and uncertainty.
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What we need most in times like these are people who are willing to step up, people
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who are willing to be brave, to be courageous, and to lead with heart.
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My guest today is here to show us how to do just that.
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Dr. Brené Brown is a research professor at the University of Houston where she holds
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the Huffington Foundation Brené Brown Endowed Chair at the Graduate College of Social Work.
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She spent the past two decades studying courage, vulnerability, shame, and empathy, and is
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the author of four number one New York Times bestsellers: Braving the Wilderness, Rising
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Strong, Daring Greatly, and The Gifts of Imperfection.
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Her TED Talk, The Power of Vulnerability, is one of the top five most viewed TED Talks
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in the world––yes, in the world––with more than 35 million views.
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Brené lives in Houston, Texas with her husband Steve and their children Ellen and Charlie.
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Her latest book which we're going to talk about today, Dare to Lead: Brave Work, Tough
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Conversations, Whole Hearts, is available now.
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Brené, it is so great to have you on the Marie Forleo Podcast.
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You're one of my favorite humans in the whole world.
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I texted you this, but I need to say it right now: Dare to Lead, another one that you knocked
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out of the park.
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My book is filled with underlines and highlights and dog-eared pages and all of the good things,
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but I need to ask you.
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You're so prolific.
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I am curious.
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Why this topic and why right now?
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First, I just...
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Anywhere, anytime, doing anything, I'm yours.
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I'm in.
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Thank you for having me back.
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Let me tell you.
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The last time we did something together, you have amazing...
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You have an amazing crew.
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Not only the people who work with you, but your community is incredible.
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So thank you for inviting me in again.
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Anytime.
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So why this book?
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Oh, my god.
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It's a really good question.
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A couple years ago, we got super clear.
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Like the name of our company is Brené Brown Education Research Group.
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So we have this mission of making the world a greater place by sharing our research and
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our work in a really accessible, relevant way with impact, looking for impact and scale.
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I realized and I had already been studying leadership, but I didn't think I would do
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a leadership book per se.
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I thought I would just weave it in like I kind of did with Daring Greatly and Rising
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Strong and weave it into other books.
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I had this huge epiphany actually in New York.
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I was working with an organization that has 25,000 employees and was really just struggling.
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The leadership was not showing.
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They weren't showing up like they wanted to show up.
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People were just really in a dark place.
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I thought "You know what?
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You can't change the world.
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You can't make the world a greater place if you don't change how we work because, as adults,
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we spend more than half of our lives at work."
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I think everyone listening will attest to the fact that if work is toxic, if work is
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shaming, if work makes you question your value, everything in your life just goes to shit.
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Yes.
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That gets an amen on a Wednesday or Thursday from me.
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Yeah.
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So I just thought "You know what?
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I'm going to do this."
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I think it's a book for everyone.
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We define...
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I define a leader as anyone who takes responsibility for finding the potential in people and processes
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and has the courage to develop that potential.
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So this is not a book for people in the C-Suite or people with corner offices and big titles.
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This is a book for every one of us that wants to show up, contribute, and lean into our
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purpose.
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So in the book, you talk a lot about armored leadership versus daring leadership.
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Let's talk about what is underneath these different approaches.
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I just want to underscore what you just said about this is for everyone because I feel
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like, especially in my community for the folks listening right now from what I've read in
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emails and just keeping in touch with our folks, one of the things that can plague us
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is not thinking that our voice matters, not thinking that we have anything important to
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say or that, as you said, if we're not in that corner office, we're not at that C-Suite
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level, that we're not a leader.
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But I do think, as you well know, now more than ever we need brave people to stand up
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in every corner of every organization, of their families, of their friend groups, everything.
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Let's think about this from that perspective.
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Armored leadership versus daring leadership, what's that about?
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So here's what was really...
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I have to be honest with you.
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This was the most...
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This kind of blew my hypothesis out of the water.
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I went in thinking that the biggest barrier to daring leadership is fear.
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We're afraid.
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There's a lot of new research in here including interviews with 150 leaders and a three-year
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process of building and instrument to measure your daring leadership capacity.
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I started looking at the data, and I was like "Oh, my god.
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I don't think fear...
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I don't think the greatest barrier to daring leadership is fear.
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I'm wrong."
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So I went back and started interviewing some of the bravest people I know, I mean bravest
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leaders I know again from social justice movements to oil and gas companies, and they're like
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"Fear?
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No, I'm afraid all the time."
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I was like "What do you mean?"
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They're like "No, I'm afraid everyday."
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I was like "It's not fear."
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Then as we started digging, what we realized is the greatest barrier is not our fear.
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It's our armor, how we show up when we're in fear.
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Some of us, in fear, recognize the fear.
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We're very aware of what kind of armor we depend on, how we self-protect, but most of
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us, myself included, still to this day when we feel vulnerable or uncertain or at risk
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or criticized, we armor up.
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That armor, those different behaviors we use to self-protect, they corrode trust, they
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move us into fear, they keep us away from courageous decision-making, and they really
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are toxic to whatever our mission and purpose is.
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So what it really came down to, the heart of the book, is the difference between.
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If everyone's afraid, daring leadership is having the skills to lean into the fear and
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figure out what the hell's going on and stay brave.
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Armored leadership is those terrible behaviors that we lean into to protect.
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What do some of those look like for you?
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So I know for me, even mostly in a personal realm, right?
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Yeah.
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For me to armor up, I know it's like I shut down.
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In the book, you were writing...
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I actually have some friends that I joke with about this.
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It's almost like I do turn into a Transformer.
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All of the metal, right?
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Everything just comes up and it's like boom.
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It all gets sucked inside and it's like you cannot penetrate.
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My vision, my heart, everything closes down.
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I'm curious what are some of the ways that it shows up for you.
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Well 16 of them emerged from the research.
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It was 16 different types of armor.
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Our armories are very full, and 16 kind of daring leadership approaches to counter that
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armor.
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But I think some of the big ones that we face: driving perfectionism and fostering fear of
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failure.
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Yes.
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Perfectionism is armor.
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I mean perfectionism is the 20-ton shield.
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Yes.
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It's really...
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All perfectionism...
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I mean it's not striving for excellence or healthy striving.
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That's completely different.
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That's completely internally motivated.
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Yes.
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Perfectionism is "Oh, god.
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What will people think?"
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Yes.
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So the daring leadership response to perfectionism is modeling and encouraging healthy striving,
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empathy, and self-compassion.
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So if you've got a team and I'm thinking about all the people I know who follow you in a
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cult-like but great way and most of them are young entrepreneurs, they are people...
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I mean they lean into your work so heavily as they're trying to build their own businesses.
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Yes.
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I can tell you...
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And most of them are women.
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Not all, but most.
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I can tell you, from interviewing a lot of young entrepreneurs for this work, how many
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times...
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I mean I get teary-eyed every time I think about it.
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I sat across from someone who sunk all their savings or borrowed money from their family
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and really started this thing that they believed in and let their perfectionism completely
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corrode it.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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It breaks my heart.
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I try to share as often as possible, Brené, A) how long it's taken me to get where I am
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and how long––seven years––I had all these different side jobs because I didn't
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know what I was doing.
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And I still am the farthest thing from perfect.
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We make mistakes all the time.
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I love that we're talking about this.
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I really, really do.
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I think it's especially important in the time that we're in right now where Instagram is
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obviously most of our favorite social media platforms and it's the place where everything
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can look the shiniest and the prettiest and the most perfect which that's a whole other
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conversation.
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But I was having a talk with a girlfriend the other day and I said "Hey.
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How are you?"
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Because she's been experiencing a really tough, difficult time.
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I said "I've been watching you on Instagram and I've been wanting to give you your space."
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We were laughing because she's like "Instagram's mostly a lie."
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Yeah.
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I howled out loud, but to your point about daring leadership and perfectionism and that's
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one of the ways that we armor up, I just really want to appreciate you for calling all of
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this out because it's so, so important.
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Another thing I highlighted in the book which I love this phrase, "Embrace the suck."[a]
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I really want to drive home this point that courage and fear are not mutually exclusive.
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We do not have to stop feeling afraid to do brave, courageous things.
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Thank you.
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Y'all, I mean people make up...
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I could just spend the rest of my life reading a book of stories people make up about me
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and what my life is like.
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I'll be honest with you.
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I texted my chief of staff like five minutes ago––who is my sister––and was like
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"Oh, my god.
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Is this shit with Marie audio or video?"
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She goes "Audio.
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I've already told you I'll give you a head up if it's video."
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Right now, I'm sitting here.
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My hair is wet and I've got like masks under my eye bags because I'm just getting over
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being sick.
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I threw my tennis shoes on.
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I just came downstairs.
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I've got one Adidas tennis shoe on and one Converse tennis shoe on.
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I didn't realize I grabbed two different tennis shoes.
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Yes.
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Okay.
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You want to trade stories?
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Yeah.
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So I came into my studio.
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Right now, same thing.
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It's like a little bit.
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Today's one of those hot fall days in New York City.
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Yeah.
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My uniform when I'm not doing my show which I like to say "It's the Marie Forleo...
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It's MarieTV.
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It's a show."
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But I run into people all the time on the street with no makeup.
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My uniform is a really comfy v-neck tee-shirt and some form of jeans and flip flops.
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That is my happy place.
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So I come into my studio about to record this, right?
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So I have a thing where if I have a lot of visual clutter around, I find it hard to concentrate.
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That's just one of the things that helps me just stay focused.
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So I think it was like a week or two ago.
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We were here in the studio filming some stuff, and I just had a moment where there were so
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many...
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You know when you just look around, you're like "How did all this clutter get here?"
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Like it just accumulates.
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So my team helped me clear things out because they know how important it is to me, and I'm
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getting ready for this podcast and guess what, Brené?
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My podcast mike that we're on right now, the little plug, the USB that helps it plug in
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is not fucking there.
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So it's literally...
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So I'm like "Oh, shit.
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I got to talk to Brené in like 10 minutes."
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So here's where grace comes in.
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I knew I chose this particular location where I'm in in New York City for a reason.
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First of all, it's around the corner from my favorite karaoke place ever, and it happens
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to be down the street from a place called Adorama, which is a place that is all tech,
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like cameras, audio equipment.
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I am running down the street, Brené.
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Everything is jingling.
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This is like literally 10 minutes before you and I just hopped on to record this, and I'm
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sweating bullets to get this USB port, begging these guys in the store.
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I'm like "Hey, I'm about to record a podcast with one of my really dear friends.
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I really need this USB port.