Beggingfor a jobis a floorwalker, thedepartmentstore.
Sohetookhim a longwhiletogethisfeetaftercollege, and I thinkthatprofoundlyaffectedhim.
AndheusedtotellmethatAmericadidnotcomeoutofthatdepressionuntiltheSecondWorldWarandthathe, being a Roosevelthater, usedtosaythatRooseveltgotallthecreditforgettingAmericatheDepression, wheninfactthewardid.
So, uh, I grewupin a environmentofstrictconformitywhere I usedtowear a tieand a shirtandah, jacketeveryday I livedinNewYorkCity.
I didnotgooutonthestreetwithwithout a tieon.
Youfeltnakedonthestreetwithout a tieintheneighborhoodswhere I waas.
Uh, ontheotherhand, lifehad a verydefinedstabilitytoit.
Everythingwasdoneat a certainhour.
Myfatherwouldsitthebathtubat a certainhour, and I couldalwaysgoandseehimatthathourandtalktohim.
Uh, wasthere a senseatthattimethatthatwasrepressivewasclaustrophobic.
I didnotrealizethat I I realizedthatinhindsight, whenpeopletellmeaboutitbecausethebeatnikmovementobviouslystressedthatKerouacandpeoplelikethatwe'rebreakingout.
Butas a kid, atthatpointintime, no, I hadnosenseofwherethattherewas a problemwiththeenvironment.
I feltsuddenlywaswronginthe 19 sixties, intheearlysixties, butinthe 19 fiftiesitwasfearandconformityandgettinggoodgradesinschooland, ah, tryingtogrowupwithoutgettingintotoomuchtrouble.
Youknow, I thinksmokingcigarettesandmaybegettingbeing a J D juveniledelinquentwasaboutthelevelofnonconformitythatyoucouldgoto.
And I thoughtitwasprettyfrighteningto a 989 yearold, youknow, and I believeditthroughthefiftiesandthenAnd I suppose, whenKennedycamealong, Kennedy, ifyouremember, didselltheColdWarideaatthebeginningofhishechanged, I thinklaterandhiscan a presidency.
ButitallstartedtocomeapartaboutthatformeandfortheUnitedStates, tomyparentskindofdivorce, ironically, and 60 to 63 whichwas a majorshock.
AndthenwhenKennedywaskilled, MrJohnsoncommittedustoVietnam, and I thinkyousawthiswholesortofquestioninggoingoninAmericasubconsciouslywashappeningtomeafter a divorcesituationwas a bitlikecatching a rideon, ifyouknowthebook.
ButHoldenCaulfieldwasmywas a bitofmyantiheroatthetime I ranawayfromschool, I did a numberofthingsthatweresimilar, and I wenttocollegeatYaleUniversity, and I reallyliterallyhad a nervousbreakdownwithouthavingthananyofthephysicalsymptomsofoneinthatitwassuddenlystopped.
Nothingwasworkingforme.
I couldn't getgoodgradesanymore.
I couldn't work.
I couldn't study, couldn't concentrate.
I knewsomethingwaswrongwithmysystemmentallythatitwasnotgettingenoughoutofAmerica, notgettingenoughoutofmyself.
Unhappy.
And I said, Well, I'm gonnatakemyselfouttotheFarEastbecause I'vegot I'vegottofindanotherway I'vegottofindanotherwayofliving.
I rememberbeingparticularlyinfluencedbyshowsofConrad's bookatthatpoint.
LordJimonaboutsailingtheSoutheastAsianseesandhavingthatsenseoffreedominanotherlife, a secondlifesospeaker.
That's whathappenedtome.
I wentout.
Thereis a secondlifein 1965 toteachschool.
It's a ChinesestudentshighschoolstudentsininSaigonandCharlotte, Vietnam.
Wasthere a disillusionmentatthosetimesintheearlysixtiesforyouas a workwithsomebodyinthebabyboomergenerationthatAmericawasn't providingwhatitsaiditwasgonnaprovideThatwasn't beingthecountrythatprofesseditselftobe?
Notyet.
No, I think, uhuh, I don't knowwhat I wasrebellingagainst.
All I knewiswhatsomethingwaswrong.
And I hadtogofindanothersystem, findanother, seewhattherestoftheworldwaslike.
I wastooyoungtomakevaluejudgments.
I wasjustBut I wasoldenoughtoknowthatsomethingwaswrong.
Andthen I hadtolook, I justhadtokeepmyeyesopenandtogoouttotheFarEastandtotalktomeetnewpeopleandsenior, thethingsseemtobethesolution.
Ah, thedisillusionmentpossibly, uh, startswithwith a senseof, youknow, I wasoneofthefirstkidstoleavecollege.
Thatdidn't starttill 68.
But I thinkitstartswiththatsenseofthelonelycrowd.
DavidReismanbook A senseofconformity A mygrowingtoYaleUniversityinordertototurnintoanothertime a suitonWallStreetTB a bankertobeanothermemberofSkullandBonesortheCIA.
DidyouseewhenwewhenwetalkabouttheVietnamexperiencecanyoutalkaboutitintermsofwhenyouwent, whatyoubelievedyouweredoingandwhenthingsOh, boy, that's next 10 years.
Orlikeyouknow, you'retalkingabout a rollercoasterridethroughadolescenthell.
Uh, I thinkthatyousee a lotofthosefeelingsreflectedinBorntheFourthofJulyandinplatoon.
Ifyoulookcloselyandinfact, youknow, I thinkifyoulookatmymovieWallStreet, you'llsee a kidthatif I hadeverystateatcollegeandgonetoWallStreet, I mighthave, youknow, hadsomeofthoseproblemsthatCharliedid.
Xiner I thinkyouknow, I wenttoNamis a soldier.
Eventually, in 67 8 and I sawthingsthatjustshockedmeopenmyeyes.
I neverbethesameagain.
I combatis a is a SyrianexperienceanddevastatingtoknowwhatyoursenseoflifeisworthYoursenseofself, Uh, youhavenoillusionsaboutyourselforwhatlifecomesdownto.
Itcomesto a verybasicthingsurvival.
Andyousee a lotofuglinessinyourfellowmanandyoungpeople.
I mean, it's a verygenetickindofthing.
Itjustis.
Breedid.
It's It's aninbredthing.
I trytodealwiththatinplatoonatthelowestlevel.
Yousee, a certaintypeofmanisgonnago a certainkindofwayin a pressuresituation, andothertypesofmenaregonnadobetterthings I thinkmorallybetter.
So, uh, e I got a handonaneyefulofthat.
About 19 20 I camebackand I guess I wasliketheTomCruisecharacterandborninthat I wasnotreadytocondemnthewareffort, But I certainlythingswerenotworkingandsink.
And, uhSo I camebackto a veryconflictedinterstate, and I wentthroughyearsofquestioningandalienationanddoubtsandpersonalproblems.
I wenttojailatonepointinAmerica, 10 daysafter I gotbackfromtheVietnamWarformarijuana, whichwasanothereyeopener, becausehereinthejails, I sawanotherunderclassofkidsthat I justleftinVietnamthatwereinjailwithoutanyreallyhopesoffreedom.
Well, I thinktheAmerica I camebackin a sensehadchangedenormously.
I thinkthatJohnsonsplitthecountryinhalfbysendingonlythepoor.
I, uh, thedraftwasnotjustifyoucouldget a collegedeferment, yougotone.
Sothatmeansthatwhydidthewarifyoucouldghost?
Ifyouhadthemoneytopay a psychiatrist, youcouldgettheatricdischarge.
I mean, anybodycouldgetoutiftheyreallywantedto.
Youcannotfight a warthatwaybecauseitsplits a generation.
You'resendinghalfthekidseffortcontinuingoninto a commerciallifehere.
Backto a situationwheremygeneration, I knewwereallprosperingbecauseJohnson, period, theinflationtooktookthiscountrylike a steamrollerandjustthevalueofthedollar.
I mean, what a dollarcouldbuy.
And 65 itwastremendouslydifferent.
Andinflationwasrightmakingmoney.
Myfriendsweredoingwell.
Um, I camebackto a situationwhere, uh, encounteringhostilitytomindinvolvement.
Overthere.
I wasencountering a completeindifference.
Itwaslike, Oh, youwereoverthereforyouDroppedoutfor a yeartogoovertheretime.
Thatweweregonnabefighting a retreatingactinfantryfromthatpointon, andfromthatpointonforAmandarisklifein a retreatingaction, itbecomeshighly, hewillriskhislife.
That's why I supposeatthattime 67 68 I hadcontemptforthem.
ButthatchangedCrumb.
If I probablywouldhavedonethesamething, I probablywouldhavebeentocollegebecause I wouldn't knowwhatwarislike.
I don't wantto, and I'veprobablyprotestbecauseit's thebestthing I coulddoandsaysomethingwithout, Youknow, that's thebest I couldhavedonewithoutscrewingupmylife.
Wasjust a politicalculturalmovementorwasn't a bigpartyordidn't haveany?
Uh, ithadnothingnomeaningtomeuntil, uh, I heardthatsomeofthemusicinVietnam I heardbrothersand I heardthedoors.
I heard, uh, I I'd grownup a cz I toldyouearlierin a moreconformistsocietyinthefiftiesandsixtieswhenyouwore a tieandanassuredtosuddenlyseegirlsandboyscompletelynaked, takingtheirclothesoffwearingtheseoutrageousclotheswasquite a shocktomay.
I saidHowdidyouknow I'd neverhavethecouragetodothat?
I lookthat I wouldneverlooktotrytostandout, gowithlonghair.
Myfatherhadalwayssortoftaughtme, youknow, a womanitshouldstandoutshouldlookgood, But a man, uh, standout.
Youknow, youshouldbeanonymous.
Justpartofthereasonyougotothearmytosortofbeanonymous, tosortofnothaveanidentitytotobepartof a socialfabric.
Uh, thatgivesititsThere's a strangestrengthenthat, youknow, thatOh, tobeoneofcollective, which I supposeistrueaboutsomeofthehippiemovementtoownway.
Theywerejoining a collectiveandbeinganonymousintheirownway.
Butitstruckmeasveryatthattime, itstruckmeasjust a kidunderuhuh, I said I could I neverunderstoodthemotivationofthegirlsareveryand, uh, youknow, theoldthingaboutatthatpointintime, someofthegirlsweresayingthatwewouldneverhavesexwithsoldiersbecause, youknow, they'rethewarmachineandtheyweresexmilitary.
Andthatwasaninteresting I thoughtconceptofStrada.
Youknowthat.
Andinfact, theywereright.
I mean, ifallthemothersinAmericahadworkedhaddeclaredwaronthePentagonandtheycouldhavepreventeditifallofMother's hadspokenoutasmotherstoprotecttheirsons, itwouldnotwaydead.
Theyhadthesetome.
And, youknow, I cametounderstandaftertheorwhat?
Themusicthatgotmefirstwiththemusicwasblack.
Musiciswhatworkedbecause I hadItwas a lotofblackyetnow I'm sotheywereplayingtemptationsand, uh, keyRobinsonstuffyousawinPlatoon.
Youknow, thatgetstoyourunconsciousveryquickly.
It's interestingthatmeinVietnam, betweentheguyswholistentocountrymusic, whicharemany, uh, theyhad a verystrong I wouldsay, morehawkishpointofview.
Whereasthoseboyswholistenedmoretothesoulmusicat a differentpointofyouandtherewasmorelike I'm gonnatakethecashisclayattitudeMohammedAliattitudeof I gotnobeefwithyouhadcome.
I justgottagetKevingonnagetoutofhere.
Theyweremorecoolerandwewenttowhichis I foundthatthosetypeofpeoplewouldtreattheVillagers a littlebetter.
ItwouldtalkaboutGreektheaterandesoas a veteranofVietnamveteran.
Certainlythetipsofsexanddeathwereveryclosetomeon I couldrelateto, but I sawJimOh, isthissortof a countercultural, uh, moreclosertoprobablyMarlonBrandoorJamesDean?
Theendiscertainlythefirstsortof a classicoperakindofteeth.
A journeythrough a subterraneanconsciousness.
Uh, andthenyouyouknow, youralbumwasjust a strongisthefirst, anditwentallthewaythroughthesevenalbumsdownto L.
A WomanwhereJim, I think, gotmuchmellowerlateron.
I mean, I thinkhelostsomeofhisthatharderedge, andhebecamemoreof a bluestypesinger, alwayslovedtheblues, andhewaslayingback.
And I think, uh, you'vehad, like, sevenalbumsandmaybe 40 songsandmaybe 2025 songsareterrificsongsofWindowjustchronologicallygofrom 1962.
19 weresomeendofthedecade, ifyouwill.
Seven.
Missingthecutoffpoint.
Buttherewas a beginning.
Andwherehadyoucomebytheendofthis?
You'retalkingaboutadolescence.
I thinknothing.
Everythinghappens.
That's excitinginourlives.
Whentheageoffrom 14 to 24 youknow, that's That's theplaygroundwheresomuchhasdecided I camefrombeing a Republican, young, Republicantype, conformist, notreallyknowingwhat I wasthinking, why I wasthinkingit, butparodyinsortof a partylinetobeing a anarchic, uh, creativelyanarchicindependent, uh, free.
Thinkdoubtingeverythingbytheendofthesixties, doubtingthesystemsthat I hadlearnedaboutinthefifties, butnotyetknowinghowtolivemylifequiteonwrestling, withmanydoubtsinmuchinternalwarfare.
YousaythatbecauseinWallStreet, atveryleast, there's Thereis a messagethatsomeofthosevaluesthatwetalkedaboutinthesixtiesorweidentifyareassignedtothesixtiesgotlostby a generation.
Hewasborn, and I didnoticeamongpeoplethatwerecameofcameofageintheseventiesandeighties.
I, uhtherewastoomuchaccentonmaterialthings, and I triedtopointoutupinWallStreet, GordonGekkowas a character.
Pointwas, grewupinthesixties, but I seehimas a characterhavebeenoutofborntheFourthofJuly.
TheguyrunsthefastfoodhamburgerjointinMassapequa.
I mean, heprobablywentrightthroughtheNationalGuardorGodorwenttobusinessschool, neverhadtogotoVietnamandwasmakingbucksinthesixtiesandworkinghiswayupas a businessman.
Youknow, I don't thinkthatitGordonGekkoofMichaelDouglascharactereverinanywaysharedthevaluesofmostofthekidsinthesixties.
S o.
I thinkbothofthosecharactersmissedthesixtiesandinnowaystandforit.
Letmeaskyouthis.
We'reinourshow.
Six.
Rightnow.
It's thelastepisode.
It's thelegacies, ifyouwill.
Um, andthere's twodifferentlegaciesofVietnam.
I wantexam, and I don't ifyoucanseparatehimornotenoughthereseparately.
I I'm hopefulthatpeoplelikeBobKerrey, forexample, ah, governorofNebraska, youknow, wouldbe a presidentialcandidate.
He's about 42.
Helost a leginVietnam, a verybrightman.
Compassionate.
He's beenthere.
Um, I thinkmake a finepresidentagainsthimwouldbe a guylikeDanQuaylewhoisalsoaboutthesameage, earlyforties.
Ah, heartbeatawayfromthepresidency, a manwhohasneverreallysufferedpain, a manwhowenttotheNationalGuardtoavoidVietnamandyetisonewhoalwayscallsformilitaryinterventioninSouthCentralAmericawithotherpeople's bodies.
Youhavethathypocrisyatwork.
Soyousee, I thinkyouyousee a realsplitrighttherebetween a guylikeBobKerreyinNebraskaandDanQuaylefromIndiana.
However, youseethatsplitinthecountry, andthat's theleftVietnamlegacyofmygeneration.
OrarewegoingtobecomemorelikeJapan, SwitzerlandorSwedenorEuropeancountrythat, throughitspastexperiencesofsufferingandpainandwisdom, willwillacceptotherideologiesexceptotherwaysoflifeandgoonaboutthisbusiness, which I'vealwaysthinkAmericahas a goodbusiness.
It's business.
We'regoodatit.
We'renotgreatwarriorsweregoodbusinessman, So I thinkAmericashoulddothatand, uh, maybethedefensepeoplethedefenseindustrywillOurexpenditurestherewillWilldrop.
Uh, I meaneverymoviehashesetsceneslike, I guess, MidnightExpress.
Weweretalkingaboutthe, uh, thescenery.
Hebitesoutthefella's tongue, and I rememberinScarfacewho I got a lotofflakforthisscenewherePacino's, uh, uhhungupon a hookinthebathroomandtheycutoff.
Theycutuphisfriend, and, uh, theyused a chainsawonhim.
And, uh, inSalvador.
Uh, I thinktheendinggot a lotofpeoplewhenheloseshisgirlwiththeborderonduhplatoon.
It's when I guesstoWillemDafoewaskilledinthejungle, youknow, and, uh, boringtheFourthofJuly.
A lotofpeoplehavebeentalkingaboutthehospital.
Thatseemsto, uh, but a lotofpeopletalkingabouthimandDefoefindingoutinthedesert, youknow, uh, youknow, it's a movieislikeanelephantwith a blindmanthattheyalsoeverybodyseessomethingthat I wanttosay.
Youknow, youmoviehas I thinkthatinadditiontobeingentertaining, enjoyableisasanexperienceaestheticexperiencehastohaveonunderlyingtextureandunderlyingthingtoTiutomakeyoumoreconscious.