Butinarchetypesthecollectiveunconscious, there's a gooddiscussionofthepersonaandtheshadow.
Thepersona, youcouldsay, is a goodwayofthinkingaboutit.
Youknow, youwatchallthosewrongcomswherethere's alwayskindof a betamaleguywho's beingrealfriendlyandalwaysfailingmiserablywithwomenbecausebasically, he's lyingtohimself.
Andtothem, um, he's a persona, and a personaisthefacethatyoushowtotheworldwhenyou'retryingtopretendandtoconvinceyourselfandothersthatyou're, I wouldsayharmless.
Butwecouldsay a goodperson.
But a goodpersonisn't harmless.
A goodpersoniscapableof.
Well, maybe a goodpersoniscapableofanythingbutiswillingtoholdthatinthebands.
I readthisinterestingcommentary a littlewhileagoon a statementbyChristintheNewTestament, andthestatementgenerallyinterpretedisthatthemeekshallinherittheEarth.
But I waslookingup.
Themultipletranslationsofthewordmeekandmeekisactuallyderivedfrom a Greekword, ofcourse, becausetheBible, atleastsomeoftheoriginalformsoftheBiblewereinGreek.
Youcommentedonthat a fairbit, too, youknow, hehethoughtofmostmoralmoralityascowardice, notbecausemoralityitselfwascowardice, butbecausemostpeoplewhoarecowardsdisguisedtheircowardcowardiceasmorality.
Andtheyclaimthatthey'reharmlessnous, whichisactually a consequenceoftheirfearandinabilitytobeharmful, say, ortobedangerousisactually a signoftheirmoralintegrity.
Andthat's a reallybadidea.
So, youknow, ifyou'reanaxmurder, butyoudon't haveanaxe, thatdoesn't meanthatyourmoralsonow, withregardstosothat's thepersonaandthepersonaisthemaskthatyouwear.
Andthat's whatpersonameansisthemaskthatyouweartoconvinceyourselfintheworldthatyou'renot a terriblemonster, sothatwhenyoulookatyourselfinthemirror, youdon't havetorunawayscreaming.
Youknowwhenyoumightthink, Well, that's a bitofanoverstatement, butyouwasveryinterestedinphenomenasuchas, um, saypsychological, thepsychologicalphenomenathatwouldcharacterizetheactionsofsomeonewhomightbeinoursweatscampguard, forexample.
Andwhatthatalsoimpliesisthatifyoucouldseewhatthatmeantwhenyoulookedinthemirrorandlookedatyourselfyoumightrunawayscreamingbecauseyou'd have a revelationofjustexactlywhatthehumanbeingiscapableof.
Andthat's a veryunpleasantrevelationandalsooneofthethingsthatstopspeoplefrombeingenlightened, becausethatrevelationoftheeviloftheselfispartofthejourneytoenlightenmentandanearlypart.
Butthethingisisthatifthoseaggressivefeelingsandimpulsesandfantasiesareintegratedintoyourcharacter, it's likeyou'reopeningup a dialoguewith a partofyourselfthatcouldbeveryforcefulandstronganddangerous.
Menwhohaveintegratedtheirshadowoftenalsodeveloped a kindofpeculiargracethatwouldbe a consequenceofnotonlyallowingthey'reaggressivesidetostepforward, butalsotheirtheirfeminine, compassionatesidethatmight, thattheymayhavekeptsquelchedbecauseofembarrassmentaboutitorbecausethey'vebeenharassedforbeingweakoranynumberofthings.
So.
Butthepracticalapproachfordevelopingyourshadow, I wouldsay, istocontemplateandconsideryourresentmentandnoticewhatitsays.
AndYoungsaidthat, youknow a genuinemoraleffortwas a goodsubstituteforpsychotherapy.
Whatismyopiniononopenrelationships?
Polyamory, otherformsofnonmonogamy?
Well, I thinkthatas a mediumtolongtermstrategy, they'recompletelyuntenablebecausehumanbeings, asfaras I'm concerned, arefundamentallypairbonding.
And, youknow, ifyou'rejusttalkingaboutcasualsex, firstofall, I thinkcasualsexis a contradictioninterms.
I don't thinkthere's anythingaboutsexthat's casual, and I thinkthatpeoplearedeceivingthemselvesbadlywhenevertheythinkso.
Theymightliketolivein a 19 seventiesPlayboyadolescentfantasy, but I don't I'veneverseenthatworkunderanycircumstanceswhatsoever, and I thinkpeoplegethurtbadly.
It's also a badmediumtolongtermstrategybecausenopairbondingis a isthemoststablearrangementweknowofatleastsofar.
I guessthequestionis, howwouldyoudothatwithoutdisruptingtherelationshipandandwithoutknowingmoreaboutthedetailsofthat, I wouldsaythat I don't knowhowtotellwhattotellyoutodoaboutthat.
I thinkthatit's necessarytobetruthfulin a relationshipperiod.
But I alsothinkthatyoucan't usethetruthtohurt.
Youknow, thetruthis a verycomplicatedthing, andit's it's a swordanditcutsandyoucan't useittohurt.
Now, youknow, maybeyouwouldbesubtleenoughtofigureoutsomewaythatyoucouldbothembarkon a healthpromotingendeavortogether, andthatwouldworkout.
But I wouldsay, youknow, ifyouifyou'rein a stable, longtermrelationshipwithsomeone, it's prettymuchnecessaryforbothofyoutoaddressalltheissuesthataremakingyouunhappywitheachother.
Um, youknow, assumingthere's somegiveandtakeonthat, becauseotherwisetherelationshipcaneasilycomeapartattheseamslike I wouldsay, Mywifeand I arebothveryhardoneachotheraboutourphysicalappearance, Let's say, and I'vegained a fairbitofweightfromthetime I was, say, 40 tillthetime I was 50 aboutprobablybecause I waseatingthingsthatweren't goodforme.
And I wouldsaythatwasprimarilycarbohydrates.
I cantellyouifyouwanttoloseweight, youstarteatingcarbohydrates, man, you'llloseweightlikeyouwouldn't believe.
I wouldn't necessarilyrecommenditbecauseithassomedangerous, butitcertainlyworks.
Andsowhat I didwasmake a stackofthoseofthosefoamcoresheetsabouteightincheshigh, and I madethethinginquartersandsothatitwouldfittogetheronthewallbecauseitwouldhavebeentoobigtomaneuvereasily.
Andit's a verycomplicatedimage.
It's actually a threedimensionalrepresentationof A.
It's a threedimensionalrepresentationof a twodimensionalrepresentationof a fourdimensionalobjectandthatfourdimensionalobjectyoucouldthinkofasit's a representationoftimeandspace.
And I cantellyou I kindofhavetohintatwhatthepaintingmeans.
Lampwickbreakswhenhe's inPleasureIslandandhethrows a rock, too.
DestroythemodelHolmantodemolishthesubstructureofWesterncivilization, So I had a veryintensereligiousexperienceatonepointwhen I wascontemplatingthat.
Sowhen I drewtheimagetobeginwith, I drewitinabout 10 minutes, kindofrough.
Andthen I used a straightedgetostraightenitallopenand a protractortoor a compasstomakethecurves.
But I drewitveryquickly, and I hadbeenthinkingabout.
I'vebeenreadingyoung a lotatthatpoint, likeformonths, monthsofintensereading, andthatimagesortofpoppedoutofmevery, verysuddenly.
Butittookaboutthreemonthstomaketheactualimage, andthen I hadonly 1/4 ofithangingonmywallbecauseitwassobigand I hadfinishedit.
Afteraboutthreemonthsofworks, thiswasbackin 1985 when I was a graduatestudent.
I waslisteningtotheJupiterSymphony, whichisthepieceofmusicthat I usethatwasusedfortheintrotomymyvideos, andit's a Mozartsymphonyandthishappenedman.
Sothishappened.
So I wasreallywatchingthatMandelathatquarter, Mandelathat I havemadeintenselyandcaughtlisteningtothemusic, tryingtounderstandwhatthemusicmusicwassignifying, youknow, becausemusichasintrinsicmeaning, whichis a verystrangethingnow.
Thepartofthereasonforthatisthatlanguagehasmeaning, andourlanguagehas a musicalquality, right, andthat's processedmostlybytherighthemisphere, sothatwhenpeoplespeak, there's a there's a maladyintheirlanguageandthatcarries a lotoftheemotionalimport.
Andso, but I wasstilltryingtounderstandwhatthemeaningwaas.
Youknowwhat?
Becauseit's nonverbal, themeaningofmusic.
And I wastryingtofigureouthowtoarticulatethat.
Andthat's partlywhy I madetheThesculpturewastoget a griponit, tounderstandit.
Anyways, I wasreally, reallyconcentratinghardonthatMandelaandandthatsculptureand I hadbeenworkingonitintenselyforaboutthreemonths.
Youknowthat's a lotofmeditationon a singleidea, and I wasstandinginmylivingroomandthenhadthisverystrangeexperience, and I can't explainthispropertybecausethere's nowayofreallydescribingit.
Andthat's exactlywhatseemedtohappentomeisthat I hadthissense.
Itwaslike a vision, although I wasstillinmylivingroomandknewit.
Butinsidethetheaterofit, myimagination, I couldfeelthetheskyopeningupnow.
Itwasn't theskyitwas, I wouldsaytheonlyway I canreallythinkaboutitisthatwassomethinglikeanotherdimension.
Andthen I couldfeelthisforcedescendappointme, which I thinkwassomethingthatyouknowwouldhaveBeanconsideredclassicallysomethingliketheHolyGhost, I suppose.
Anditfilledmewiththisintensesenseof, of, of, of, ofparadise A ll, uh, paradiseALS.
I don't knowhowtosayit.
Whileitwaslikebeinginheavenforsomesomesomebriefperiodoftimeand I couldfeelmyselftransformedtransmutedas a consequenceofthisexperience.
AndAnditwasasif I wasinthepresenceofsomethingthatwasliving, youknow?
Itwasasif a gifthadbeenofferedthat I wasn't innopositiontoreceive.
And I went I talkedtomywifesoonafterwards, I shookforaboutphysicallyforabouthalfanhourafterthatexperience.
Likelike I wasshaking, youknow, likelikelikeyoushakeafter a caraccidentifyou'veeverbeenin a caraccidentandmypupilswerecompletelydilatedand I had a coupleofexperienceslikethat, likeechoesofit a coupleoftimesafterthat.
Andsoanyways, thatwas a very, verypowerfulexperience.
I'vecertainlyneverforgottenout, and, umwell, youknow, I don't know.
Well, I don't knowwhattothinkaboutthat.
I mean, Godonlyknowswhattheworldisreallylike, that's forsure.
And I'vehad a varietyofverystrangeexperiencesthathaveconvincedmethatweknowverylittleaboutanything.
So, um, forthosewhoareverycreativebuthighinneuroticism, howshouldoneworktogainemotionalstabilityinordertogooutintochaos, todomorecreativethings?
That's a reallygoodquestion.
Youknow, one.
I learnedaboutthatbyreadingYoung's worksonElka.
Me, weirdlyenough, andsobackagainingraduateschoolwhen I waswriting, startingtowritemapsofmeaningandreallytearingmyselfapartpsychologically, tryingtounderstandevil, I suppose, theeviloftheColdWarintheeviloftheindividualswhocomposedNaziGermanyandStalinistRussia.
Um, I wasreadingKarlYoungbecausehewrotehistracksonElCaminowere a lotaboutselftransformation, andhetalkedabout.
Theadvicehederivedfromthealchemistwasthatifyouweregoingtomake a messaroundwithverycomplicatedanddangerousmatters, that's a goodwayofputtingit, thatyoushouldreallyputyourlifetogether.
Andso I wouldsaytherightwaytodealwithyourneuroticismistoincreaseyourconscientiousnessbecausewealsoknowthatthehigheryourconscientiousness, theloweryourneuroticismconscientiousnessdoesseemtokeepneuroticismandcheck.
Andso I wouldsayandhavesaidthistomanypeople, um, cleanyourroom, organizeyourlifelikeget a routine, getupeverydayatthesametime, gotobedatthesametime, establisheddisciplinedhabits.
Andthatwillhelp a lotSchedulelike.
Andhere's howtouse a schedule.
Useit.
Use a calendar, UseGooglecalendar, butdon't useitas a tyrant.
Youknowyouwanttouseyouruse a calendarasifit's youryourconfidanteandadviser, andwhatyouwanttodoisusethecalendar, sitdown, openthecalendarandthink, OK, well, here's what I'm goingtodo.
I'm goingtodesign a weekoffdaysthat I wouldreallyliketohave.
Sowhatthatwouldmeanisthatyouwouldschedulethingsthatyouwouldconsidermeaningfulandproductive, youknow, on a dailybasis, sothatyoufeelthatyourlifeisjustifiedbyhaving a daylikethatandalsotoscheduleenoughofyourresponsibilitiessothatyoumakeprogressdaybydayinsteadoffallingfartherbehind.
Andwhatthatwilldoisitdoesn't directlyaffectyourneurophysiology, butyouknowyou'rereactingas a neuroticpersonpersonhighneuroticismsayyoureacttouncertaintyanyunexpected, withmorephysiologicalpreparednessandMaurexpenditureofenergythanthetypicalperson.
Andsowhatyouwanttodoisorganizeyoursurroundingsbecauseit's a loteasiertoorganizeyoursurroundings, atleasttobeginwith.
LouisWatersonhereataddedquestion, Howwouldyousuggestsomeonewho's a jackofalltradesandmasterofnoneconductthemselveswhileyou'reprobablyhighinopenness, highandcreativity?
Butpicksomethingratherthannothingorpicksomethingratherthanallthingsandthensetyourselftomasterthatbecauseyouknowyouneedtohave a uhmdiscipline, a primarydiscipline.
It's absolutelynecessarytosucceedinlife.
Now, onceyouhave a primarydiscipline, thenyoucouldbranchoutandbecome a multiplicityinyourdisciplinedapproach, andthenyou'reabsolutelybloodyunstoppable.
Youknow, I thinkthat's partlywhyit's usefultopractice a religiousfaithbecauseyousubjectyourselfto a disciplinarystructurethatway, andyoumightthink, Well, that's alloppressiveandallofthat.
Andofcoursethat's true.
Butitalsomakesyoudisciplined.
Andonceyou'redisciplinedlikeyou'relike a sharpenedswordmanlikewelltemperedbladeandthenyoucouldgooutthereandoperateintheworld.
Soandifyouhaven't foundyourpassion, then I wouldsay, Well, don't waitaroundtillyoufindthedamnthingbecauseyoumayneverfinditispicksomethingandfocusonit.
Youknow, ifyoumovestronglyandforthrightlytowardsitfor a numberofmonthsatleast, oreven a numberofyearsandthenyoufind, well, thatwasn't thethingforyou.
Itisn't gonnabe a wasteanyways, becausemostofthetimethepursuitofanydisciplinedknowledgepaysoff, evenifitdoesn't payoffinthewaythatyouinitiallyexpect.
There's complexreasonsforthat, and I wouldrecommendforthosewhoareactuallyinterestedinsuchthings, toreadErikNorman's TheOriginsandHistoryofConsciousnessandalsoTheGreatMother, whicharetwogreatworksofunionpsychology.
CamillePaglia, bytheway, is a bigfanofbothofthosebooks.
ForthoseofyouwhomightbeinterestedbecauseNormandoesthebestjobthat I knowofofdescribingwhythesymbolismoftheherowaslaidoutthewayitis, whyMotherNatureismotherfeminineandwhytheheroismasculinenownow.
Buthere's how I'vecometounderstandit, and I'm gonnauseChristiansymboliclanguagebecausebecauseit's it's thequickest.
It's theshortestroutetothissortofexplanation.
So I wouldsaythatinthemalepsyche, thedragon, thedragonslayinghero, isattheforefront.
That's that's thehumanconditionandSothere's a cur.
And, ofcourse, a womanwho's who's a womanwho's welldeveloped, lovesherchildmorethanherself, lovesherjobmorethananyoneelse, whichissomethingyoucan't reallyunderstandtillyou'vehad a child.
It's it's perfectlyreasonableinterpretationofthatstory, andsoandsothatwouldbethedevelopmentofthemasculinesidein a femalethatdecidethat's stout, stalwartandforthrightandwillingtogoforthintotheworldandconquerandconqueruncertaintyAndandthenthere's thebeautyandthebeastarchetype, which I thinkisisinsomesense, theprimaryfemalesexualarchetypeandbeautyandthebeastisanotherkindofdragonslayingstory.
It's morelike a dragontamingstory, I suppose, wherethewoman, um, thevirginalwomanwho's who's outforanadventurefinds a beastlymale.
Andthat's thedangerousmanthat I wastalkingaboutearlier, right?
Themanwhohasthecapacitysaytokillthecapacitytoharmthecapacityforviolenceathand, rightathandandthenproceedstotamehim, whichis a realadventure.
Noone, I guess, anotherpartoftheheroicelementofthefemaleisthesubjectationofherownprimacywithregardstoherchild.
Becausemydaughterjusthad a child, bytheway.
So I'm a grandfather.
Sohoorayforthat.
Anditwentreallynicely.
And I'm sohappyaboutthatbecause a I lovemydaughterand B, I really, reallylikekids.
I thinkthey'resogreat.
Andsonow I'm gonnahave a kidaroundagain.
Sothat's great.
But I mean, youknow, oneofthethingsyounoticeveryrapidlyifyourapparentisthatyoubringsomeoneintotheworldwho's nowMaurimportantunderallcircumstancesthanyouare, andthere's a there's a heroicsubject, GatienofSelfishnessthat's thatgoesalongwithoutthat's characteristicdeeplycharacteristicofthepropertydevelopedfemininespirit.
Sowhatisitthatyouaredoingtoavoidbecomingarrogant?
Yourcurrentsituationisveryinvitingforthat.
Yeah, well, I wouldsay a gooddoseofexistentialterrorcuriathatyouknow, there's a sayingintheOldTestamentthatthefearofGodisthebeginningofwisdom.
Andlike, firstofall, there's somerealtruthinthat, youknow, like I don't wanttomake a mistake.
Andso I liveinconstantterrorthat I'm goingtouttersomedamningphrasethat's goingtosinkeverything I'vedone.
It's prettydamnlowandlike, I don't feel I haveanyreasontobearrogant, Youknow, likehere's here's somethingyoucoulddoifyou'rereallyinterestedinthis.
Butit's reallyhard.
There's a paperbyCarlJungcalledtherelationsbetweentheEgoandUnconscious, andit's anunbelievablybrilliantpaper.
It's verydifficulttounderstand, butithastodowithwhatYoungcalledegoinflationandsoimaginethatasyoumoveupah, hierarchyofauthorityorcompetence, we'renotgoingtocallthemdominanceorpowerhierarchies, because I don't thinkthat's reasonable.
Butwhatthatisisinsomesensethattakingonofthearchetypeasifit's a personaltriumphfor a personalconstructor a perppersonalinvention.
Andyouweren't very, verystronglyagainstthat.
Andheknewwhathewastalkingabout.
Because, ofcourse, Younghadhisfollowersandwasanextraordinarilypowerfulmanfrom a spiritualandthephysicalperspective.
Hewascertainlynopushoverin a verybraveperson, andhehadthetemptationofbecomingwhile a cultleader, forexample, whichpeoplehaveaccusedhimofbeinginwhichhecertainlywasn't.
Andheknewthat.
Youknow, ifyouifyouhavetheprivilegeofrisingin a in a hierarchy, whatthatmeansIftherisingIsraelisthatthearchetypeisoperatingthroughyouandthatyoucan't takecreditforthat, youhaveto.
It's likeand I hopethatnobodytakesthiswrong, butit's verycomical.
Youknowhowallthesuperheroeshavealteregosoyoucan't beSupermanunlessyou'realsoClarkKentandyoucan't bewhileBatmanisn't such a goodexample, becausehegetstobe a PlayboybillionairelikeIronMan.
Youcouldsaythatthere's a greaticonbythewayofChristasPantoCrater, oneofveryearliesticonsthatshowhimwithtwodifferentfacialhavetheeyes, they'redifferent, andthefaceisasymmetrical.
11 faceisthefaceofGodhavefacesthehowfaceofGodandtheothersthathavefaceofman, andhe's holding a book.
It's I'm havingJonathanPasha, who's a brilliantcarver.
I'm havinghimcarvemethatimagesothat I canputitinmyfrontporchbecause I loveitandtheChristisholding a book.
Andsoyouknow, it's It's such a beautifulimage, thisideaofmanas a dualitybetweenthefiniteandtheinfiniteandsimultaneouslyholdingforthisin a wealthofknowledgethat's beengatheredbythehumanrace.
It's mine.
Mindexpandingvisualimageryanyways.
I mean, backtothearroganceissuesthatyouknow, I'm so I'm Sowhatwouldyousay?
Thenhe's immediatelybecomeyourbestfriendbecauseyoubloodywellwanttoknowifthere's somethingterribleaboutyousothatyoucangetitrectifiedbeforeitruinsyourlifeandruinsyourfamily's life.
Andaswasgoingtothewaitroom, youknow, becausewhen I started, I couldbarelybestbenchpress £75 peopleusedtokeepcomingoverandhelpingme, whichwasthelastthing I bloodywellwantedbutcertainlyneededit.
I gottothepointwhere I couldbenchpress £225.
I thinkthatwasthebest I did.
And I gainedabout £30 ofmusclein a yearand 1/2 sothatwasgoodthing.
So, like, I waskindof a wildman.
And, youknow, I'm a littlebitmanicinmyinmytemperament.
Andso, youknow, I was I waskindofgoingeverydirectionatthesametime.
Soand, youknow, I don't regretthat I had a finetimewhen I was a kid, andbut I neededreallytogetdisciplined, and I hadtodoitbecause I wasworkingonthesehardproblemsthatyouknow, that I'vebeendiscussingwithallofyou.
And I'vebeenworkingonthem, really, youknow, obsessively, since I wasprobablyabout 18 maybeevenearlierthanthat, andgottothepointaround 25 when I wasingraduateschooltryingtogetmyPhDisdoingallmyresearch.
Thatguypublished 15 papersbythetime I graduatedwithmyPhD, whichwasbye.
I thinkby a fairlylargemeasure, themostpapersthatany a graduatestudentatthattimeiteverpublishedatMcGill.
I thinkthat's right, mighthavebeentwiceasmanyormaybetwiceasmany, maybeeventhreetimesasmany.
Andatthesametime I wrotemapsofmeaning, whichwasterrible, terrible, terriblydifficultthingtodobecause I waswritingaboutthreehours a daydoingthat, and I couldn't doallthatandcontinuewithmymisbehavior.
Howdo I leavewithoutkillingtheonlypositiverelationshiptheyhave?
Well, I thinkyouhavetoaskyourself a differentquestion.
I thinkyoumighthavetoaskyourselfthequestionofhowdoyoumaintainthatpositiverelationshipintothefutureifyoudon't leaveandhaveyourownlife, youknow, becauseyouhavetobethinkingoverfiveyearperiodshereorevendecades.
Andiftheyaren't, thenyouhavetoseriouslythinkaboutwhetherornot a whetherornottheyhaveyourbestinterestinmindandbewhetherornotitmightbebetterforyouandforthemifyouwent, didwhatyouneededtodoanyways, so I wouldsaythat.
So, doyouhaveinmind a morespecificbreakdownofthesocialsciences?
I presumeyoumeaninrelationshiptothepostmodernneoMarxistthathavetakenoversomuchoftheuniversity?
I wouldsayphilosophyseemstobeinprettygoodshape.
Strangelyenough, itisn't exactlyclearwhy.
That's mostlymyimpression.
I wouldsaythatintherestoftheuniversity, ifthedisciplinehasatleastonefootinscience, thenit's relativelysafe.
Andso I wouldsaypsychologyisrelativelysafedisciplinebecauseit's quitenicelyconstrainedbythenecessityoftakingbiologyintoaccount.