Thanks all so much for joining us on this panel.

Tim, I would like to start with you.

I know it's been a very slow and painful process, but are you at least encouraged by this development?

The fact that Cardinal Pell will now stand trial?

We're always in favor of civil society investigating crimes against sexual violence against Children, eso when the state institutions or civil institutions take seriously and aggressively prosecute those that would harm Children.

We support that and what are all investigations.

But is it bittersweet in a sense to him that it didn't take this long to get here?

Well, there's still more work to be done.

3/4 of all victims of child sexual abuse never stepped forward, so only a small, small percentage of those ever come to any kind of civil or criminal resolution.

S o.

The tragedy is we call ourselves survivors because so many victims of child sex abuse suffer from drug addiction of huh?

Suicide?

All these different kinds of emotional and psychological problems.

They're so beset that it's difficult for them to step forward.

Understood?

Judy, As somebody who works as an attorney in this space, I mean, how big of a step do you think it is that Australia has taken by finally bringing Cardinal Pell to trial?

I think you said at one point that it might actually ensure justice for victims in the future.

No.

Well, this takes back to area research.

I did my doctoral research in law looking at sexual assault in the Catholic Church, whether or not victims of finding justice.

And I think we need to go right back to the very basics and that he is what he is justice or victims and survivors and justice is, uh, there are multiple elements, but two of the most important elements for justice Um uh, one is for the truth to be, hadn't told unacknowledged and for there to be a two way exchange of the truth.

So survivors and victims and their families want their truth to be known and acknowledged equally.

They want to hear the church that too.

The truth from the church as well as important is that is the fact that victims and survivors also want accountability now, accountability.

We look at both criminal accountability, and that's accountability for the six crimes themselves, but equally an equally important insect.

More important, for a lot of further people, in my research is accountability off the hierarchy who concealed and covered up the crimes.

Um, now, you know, straight yet?

No.

Sorry, Judy, we just I'd like to give everybody equal time, but I'm gonna get back to you on some of the issues you brought up.

But let me ask Father Goal.

I mean, what you think of what Judy said is the Catholic Church ready to adhere to the requirements that she laid out as an attorney?

Um, and how is the church feeling right now to have one of its highest ranking members actually face trial like this?

Oh, absolutely.

The churches in full agreement with those principles that Judy said in fact, very beautifully spoken about the need for truth and how helpful the truth can be in helping to remedy in some way the injustice, the terrible injustice that those who suffered this abuse went through and the fact this is exactly the same thing that Cardinal Pell himself is seeking.

He, too, is seeking the truth, and he was anxious to go and to face this trial.

And he's anxious, anxious to give his testimony.

In fact, he nearly shouted out not not guilty at the beginning of these recent procedures which have been ongoing in his case, that there were so many procedures against him at every turn, he's been found to be not guilty.

In fact, it's an amazing just looking at it from a historical perspective.

Cardinal Pell was the first bishop in the world who established some really sound and thorough criteria for handling the allegations of sexual abuse on the part of clergy when he was made archbishop of Melbourne and shortly thereafter.

This is in 2001.

He established his principles in 1996.

In 2001 he was moved, really promoted to the Sea of Sydney in Australia and very quickly the allegations against him personally.

And he's, I think, the first archbishop in history, who stepped down in order to to himself undergo the proceedings.

But an independent investigator regarding those allegations.

So he's been, in a sense, under trial since 2001 through these same procedures that he himself established, hopefully leading to the truth.

Okay, so he does claim he's innocent of you.

As you stated, their Cardinal Pell does, uh and it seems as if you respect him for his eagerness to prove that innocence.

But then why isn't the Catholic Church better coming to his defense?

The Catholic Church is not contributing particularly financially to the defense of Cardinal Pell.

Why not?

In fact, this is really beautiful, and I think in terms of the honorable ity of the Church with respect to transparency and accountability, the church is saying that this is not an institutional accusation against the church.

As such, it's against him personally, and he has his own personal responsibility and the church is also seeing.

We respect civil justice and we want him to go to trial.

You want to see the proceedings be laid out transparently according to accountability and those principles of a democratic constitutional order, and we want we want this to play out in the church is purposely not interfering in any way.

Pope Francis is very careful to not even to express his support of Cardinal Pell.

He surely supports him.

He's ah, He appointed him to his council of nine cardinals that have this international purview over the Universal Church before these allegations arose.

And yet he hasn't spoken in his defence because he wants to respect the these legal proceedings.

Okay, Tim, go ahead.

Do you agree that the church has been an honest broker than here?

No.

No.

In 2014 the U.

N.

Committee on the Rights of the Child had a hearing with the Catholic Church with the Vatican about their systematic and historic cover ups of child sex abuse.

That was in 2014.

We still have not heard of response from the Vatican to the U.

N.

Committee on the rights of a child three years later, and the U.

N.

Committee and the rights of the child says that yes, there was systematic cover up to moving priests around.

And so to me, that, uh, the whole issue of saying that the Vatican wants to be transparent.

Um, I think it is totally wrong.

You have Archbishop Opteron.

If I'm pronouncing his name right from Guam, We recently had a Vatican trial of sorts, and they didn't remove him from from Kurji.

They didn't even acknowledge that he had force accusations of sexual abuse.

And so there's to me.

There's still a systematic effort to keep things quiet about sexual abuse within clergy.

And the pope is yet to kick out one bishop who has sexually abused child or accusations of or covered up sexual abuse.

And when the bishop of when the pope starts removing bishops, then I would say that I was there, open and transparent.

Okay, Judy, let me ask you.

I mean you Do you think the church has played an honorable role in Cardinal Pell's case?

Or do you agree with Tim that there's Ah yeah, a little too little transparency?

Actually, Look, I want Thio gets a bit that I want to respond to Father Girl's opinion or calm image that Cardinal Pell was the first archbishop in the world to take sexual child sex abuse seriously in the church.

Now that's just not true.

Cardinal Pell In 1996 when he became archbishop before he was a cardinal, he did start up on internal complaints process for the four complaints of allegations of child abuse.

Now that, uh, that complaints poor process says, which was very much part of my research.

In fact, what the research found on our royal commission, which was one for five years, has also found, is that that internal complaints process was in fact a designed by lawyers to be very legalistic and two further silence contain and control the victims.

Now, with now only recently, we're getting Samo very important legislative reform to allow survive victims to be able to sue the church.

But I have until the last couple of years in Australia they waas we.

There was no legal entity for the Catholic Church per se that victims and survivors put soup.

So basically catch guard back to the church with cap in hand and big.

And the travel mission, which has said has been going for five years with 6 12 vision is and my research for the show that a camera and concealment of the six times is universal and shocking.

And in Australia, we yet we do not have one conviction for pine off concealment.

Pebble up.

Okay, One archbishop who's is on trial at the moment But that's eat.

That really is when you think about the number off victims, thousands in Australia, thousands and the number of people who have covered up So father goal.

I mean, you feel the church has really made progress and has been transparent in this process.

But we're hearing the opposite from both the victims and the attorneys that work so closely on these cases.

Where does that leave you?

Well, of course, there is room for progress.

And it's one of the reasons why Pope Francis was elected.

Why he was chosen was to bring reform to the church.

It's one of the reasons why he brought Cardinal Pell to the Vatican, was to assist in his reform in this accountability and transparency also regarding economic affairs within the Vatican.

When I said that Cardinal Pell established those rules for addressing clerical sexual abuse in 1996 I said he was the first among among bishops throughout the world.

And of course, there are civil procedures in place that need to also be engaged, which is exactly why he's facing trial right now.

And Judy brought up the issue of Archbishop Chaperone.

The fact that he has already been tried and convicted in the Vatican regarding crimes that the statute of limits of limitations have really run out back in his home country of Guam indicates that the Vatican has more severe procedures than many states do many civil jurisdictions.

And right now, Judy rightly said, he has not been removed from the clerical state, and this is because he has asked for an appeal and the church's respecting due process.

And there's a right to a to appeal, and that's undergoing right now.

Unfortunately, Father Robert Gold, I'm gonna have to give you the last word.

We are completely out of time for this segment, but there's unfortunately so much more to discuss.

But we'll look forward to see how the trial develops and thank you all.

Three.