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  • - Hello, Katie.

  • - Hi, Armin, hi.

  • Good to see you.

  • - How are you?

  • So wonderful to have you with us.

  • - Well, it's a privilege,

  • and thank you for including me.

  • - Absolutely.

  • So welcome to the first German online forgiveness

  • conference.

  • - Oh, well, you know, that's a beautiful thing to present

  • to people, and thank you for that.

  • We can use a lot of forgiveness.

  • - I think so too.

  • That's one motivation why we do it.

  • We really wanna bring it out there

  • and kind of like make it a common good,

  • so to speak.

  • Because we think it's very powerful.

  • And of course that's why we thought about you.

  • And I'm so excited to hear from you,

  • what do you think about forgiveness?

  • How you do it, what you've experienced and so on.

  • - Yeah.

  • So, forgiveness...

  • For me,

  • is, you know, my job is to share inquiry in the world.

  • So forgiveness to me is about

  • seeing that what I

  • believed happened

  • didn't necessarily happen.

  • So...

  • - Just in 99% if the cases, that's all.

  • - Well, you know, 99, 99999.99.

  • Yeah.

  • Yeah, yeah, it's just so true.

  • And what I...

  • It's like there you are, this perfect man

  • in front of me.

  • And if I am thinking,

  • if I'm putting Post-its on you,

  • mental Post-its on you,

  • these stickies,

  • and like, he doesn't like me.

  • He didn't really want me on his program today.

  • I'm sure someone made him do it.

  • I mean that's a little ridiculous.

  • I don't have very...

  • I'm not coming with any great hypothetical here.

  • But I put all those negative Post-its on you

  • out of my own paranoid mind at the moment.

  • And so the next time you ask me for an interview,

  • I tell my office, oh no,

  • just let him know that I'm unavailable.

  • And so I am not forgiving you

  • for being the person I believed you to be.

  • But that's not you.

  • So if I take all those Post-its

  • and I put them on a judgmental worksheet,

  • all those Post-its I put on you,

  • what I believed onto you,

  • and I write them down

  • and I question those Post-its,

  • those concepts, those judgments on you,

  • then you remain completely free

  • and I'm the only one I wouldn't want,

  • I wouldn't want myself to be interviewed

  • by anyone if I'm in that state of mind.

  • (Armin laughs)

  • And so I have a lot of work to do

  • before I can say yes to an interview like this

  • because I'm doing it to you.

  • You're never doing it to me.

  • That's forgiveness.

  • Seeing what I thought happened didn't.

  • He doesn't like what I say.

  • He...

  • I know he, blah blah blah blah blah blah.

  • Those are the stickies, the Post-its

  • that I'm talking about that we put on people.

  • So the mind is just spinning,

  • and we're really believing some of those,

  • or a lot of those thoughts.

  • So now I've got, let's say, a strong word,

  • but an enemy.

  • And you're not.

  • You are not.

  • I'm deluded.

  • So this is this kind of inquiry,

  • we not only find ourselves

  • left in a state of forgiveness,

  • but it is shocking to see that person,

  • to sit with that...

  • Let's say I've done the work on you

  • out of that mind that I put on you,

  • I've done the work on you,

  • question those thoughts,

  • and that the next time I see you

  • I'm shocked at how intimate we are together.

  • And so there's nothing between us, I'm connected.

  • But who took care of that?

  • You didn't change.

  • I questioned what I believed about you,

  • and forgiveness happened.

  • And there's not even a little,

  • not even a little...

  • there's just no evidence of it left.

  • I can remember it, but it's laughable.

  • And that is, laughter is good between friends.

  • And that's, Armin, why I say

  • no one, no one

  • can separate me from them.

  • I'm the only one that can separate me

  • from another human being.

  • And if I am not connected,

  • then that's on me.

  • I look at what I'm thinking and believing,

  • I questioned that, I turn it around,

  • opposites, for those of you the don't know,

  • the work's always free at thework.com.

  • And I turn it around,

  • and I meet you again.

  • And if I've done anything to hurt you

  • out of that unkind mind,

  • the next time I see you I admit it,

  • I apologize.

  • And all the bread crumbs are gone.

  • All those oast bread crumbs, Hansel and Gretel,

  • where they left all the bread crumbs.

  • So my life is about picking up those bread crumbs,

  • all of them that appear,

  • and then if I drop another one, pick it up.

  • That way people can live in the present

  • without a past.

  • - Yeah, wonderful.

  • I was just gonna say it's an inside job,

  • which it is, taking all those Post-its,

  • those sticky notes away.

  • And I really liked what you said

  • about maybe, possibly hurting someone else

  • by this attacking and awful mind of mine.

  • So then it also,

  • well, it also starts with an inside job,

  • like admitting.

  • First I admit it to myself

  • that I might have done something.

  • But then I admit it to him or her,

  • and that's like,

  • that's a huge honesty.

  • - Well, it's very humbling.

  • - Oh yeah.

  • - It's quite a turnaround for the ego.

  • And if it's not sincere, I certainly wouldn't do it.

  • But if I'm thinking,

  • so I want until I am,

  • and admit it and apologize and I make it right

  • where I can, like if I've gossiped about you,

  • I've said something unkind about you,

  • if I've influenced someone negatively on you,

  • then that's just my crazy.

  • And I need to make that right and go back to those people

  • and say, you know, I was nuts.

  • And this man is a kind man,

  • a good man.

  • I'd be telling the truth,

  • because I have really done my work.

  • - So the hardest part probably is

  • giving up the perceived need to be right

  • or to attack or to, also to separate.

  • Well, separation is probably an effect

  • of wanting to be right and wanting to judge.

  • Probably not wanting to feel how hard it hurts.

  • - Yes.

  • And also if I want to be right,

  • that's my first clue, there's an attachment there,

  • that's my first clue, that you know,

  • it's time for me to identify what I'm thinking

  • and believing about this other human being.

  • And write those thoughts down,

  • those judgments and assumptions

  • and question them and turn them around.

  • And that's the only way I know

  • to turn my life around

  • and to see people as they really are

  • as opposed to who I believed them to be

  • prior to investigation.

  • No enemy,

  • no enemy,

  • no enemy,

  • no enemy.

  • If I have an enemy that's on me,

  • not the other way around.

  • So we're talking about complete forgiveness here,

  • total forgiveness.

  • - Yeah, yeah.

  • Which is a process obviously, because it takes time,

  • but...

  • - It sure does.

  • - Yes.

  • Of course.

  • But it's a process that you can complete, right?

  • - Yes, it is.

  • - And that's the good news.

  • - And you know, it's,

  • I never know myself if it's completed.

  • That's the beautiful thing about life,

  • it will show me what I've missed.

  • That's what life's all about.

  • The enlightened mind.

  • The enlightened mind has nothing to forgive.

  • It's beyond judgment.

  • - And well, I'm guessing another effect...

  • - Or the kind of judgment we're talking about

  • that would leave need for forgiveness.

  • - Mm-hm.

  • And I'm guessing, like the self image,

  • how I conceive myself also changes

  • bit by bit when I'm doing this work, right?

  • - Oh my goodness, yes.

  • My identity...

  • My identity is sitting with this person

  • I'm putting Post-its on,

  • and my identity is I'm the one that knows.

  • And I know that you're unkind, you're unfair,

  • you don't like me.

  • You're just placating me.

  • You know, et cetera, et cetera.

  • And I do the work and those Post-its

  • are off of you, they're gone.

  • And I'm connected.

  • I'm connected.

  • My true nature is available,

  • and so yours is available.

  • But this identity I had, I'm the one that's right,

  • that's hard.

  • That's really hard.

  • It takes defense.

  • It takes a life of defending.

  • And defense is the first act of war.

  • So there's the clue for that.

  • - Yeah.

  • - This being right

  • is being...

  • It is a being identified.

  • And unquestioned mind.

  • I have no way of knowing,

  • you know, when I'm right about another human being.

  • It's enough to know what's right for me in my life.

  • It's a full time job.

  • But I have to like me

  • to deal with me.

  • And if I don't like you I don't like me.

  • So you're the key to my own heart.

  • - Yeah.

  • Wonderful.

  • So the things that seem to happen to us,

  • like if we put it up a notch,

  • you said, like, you have this image of someone

  • who hasn't done anything to you,

  • but let's say someone does something to you.

  • For example, calls you names

  • or neglects you

  • or you understand where I'm getting,

  • who slaps you.

  • - Yeah, yeah.

  • If someone slaps me, what I love about that

  • is it's over.

  • I mean it's over.

  • Now if he's going to slap me,

  • am I okay in this moment?

  • Like here's my face and here's his hand,

  • am I okay in this moment?

  • Am I still okay?

  • Am I still okay?

  • And then that happens,

  • and without a past, am I okay?

  • Without a past, am I okay?

  • So without that,

  • the slap only hurts when I'm living in the past.

  • And it's only feared when I anticipate

  • that he's gonna hit me.

  • So without the past or future,

  • without remembering or anticipation,

  • where's the fault on him?

  • So I'm creating the fault on him.

  • So the next time I see you,

  • I'll recall that,

  • but I won't recall attacking you.

  • Or saying, oh, you hurt me.

  • Well, my remembering and anticipating is what hurt me,

  • that doesn't hurt.

  • - Wow.

  • That's radical.

  • I like it.

  • - So there's nothing to forgive.

  • Still.

  • You hit me.

  • You're not my enemy.

  • What I'm believing about you

  • is that is you perceive that it's not you.

  • So if I'm afraid of you, I'm not connected,

  • and I can't even talk to you

  • about, you know, what were you thinking

  • when you hit me?

  • Have I done something to harm you?

  • Or maybe I look at you

  • and think, you know,

  • and he hit me and he may just

  • not wanna talk to me,

  • and I go on about my way.

  • But and if someone hits me,

  • it doesn't mean that,

  • people listening to this,

  • it doesn't mean you're not gonna report it.

  • It doesn't mean any of that.

  • It's just that no enemy inside,

  • complete forgiveness.

  • Again, forgiveness is...

  • Holding those Post-its on him

  • that I was believing from past future.

  • And if someone says, what did he do to you?

  • He hit me.

  • And that's, you know, he hit me.

  • It's over.

  • I mean inside of me, I just saw him hit you.

  • How do you feel about that?

  • Oh, you know, I feel like it's over.

  • But in an unquestioned mind,

  • how do you feel about him?

  • I think he's terrible.

  • I don't know why he hit me

  • and I didn't do anything to him to deserve that.

  • (mumbles)

  • So I am just, I am,

  • there's no forgiveness in that.

  • So when people say they want forgiveness

  • in their life, it's, you know,

  • it's, really?

  • Really?

  • Because we think if we're not in fear

  • we're not protected and our physical bodies

  • are at stake.

  • And mind is not body, so work with the mind

  • and the body will follow.

  • - Wonderful.

  • That's the cause, right?

  • The mind is always the cause.

  • - Mind is cause, body's effect.

  • - Yes.

  • - Mind is cause, enemy is effect.

  • - And story and personality and taking it personal

  • and all the (laughs)

  • - All the...

  • - All the whole shebang.

  • - And the whole thing.

  • If I see you as an enemy,

  • I am insane.

  • And fear is insane.

  • It hurts.

  • It's suffering.

  • And it's not as though

  • we can do something about it

  • when we have no way of knowing about it.

  • And that's, again, you know, for me,

  • I don't call it The Work for nothing.

  • I had to collect my thoughts and question them

  • and be completely open to the answers for it to work.

  • They don't work if we're not open to the answers.

  • And it takes stillness.

  • When we ask, is it true?

  • For example, we need to sit and get still and meditate

  • on that question, to see what meets it.

  • And what meets it is big medicine.

  • It will shift you right out of identity.

  • - Oh, wow.

  • Thank you.

  • So it's...

  • This meeting,

  • the question, the issue, or whatever,

  • the story.

  • Let's say what heals it is not putting up the question

  • is what is the connection or it's the meeting,

  • what meets it, which is the mind.

  • - Yes, what meets the question

  • is the answer to the question.

  • - Oh my God.

  • Okay.

  • I think I haven't understood the work before.

  • I think I'm getting closer.

  • Thank you.

  • - You're welcome.

  • - It's deep.

  • - Yes, it is.

  • - Thanks.

  • I didn't want to cry, but here we are.

  • It's such a relief.

  • Thank you.

  • - Yes.

  • Yes, it is.

  • - Because then you have access to what is true.

  • Oh.

  • (sighs)

  • Thank you.

  • - It's beautiful.

  • These beautiful moments of recognition.

  • The beautiful self.

  • - And now I'm just realizing there...

  • If you call it forgiveness

  • or whatever you wanna call it,

  • there's no other way.

  • If you don't get access to that,

  • how can you, I mean, not stay in the story?

  • If there isn't a real and better alternative,

  • how can you not stay there and not keep suffering?

  • - That's why we don't know how to end war in the world.

  • And this is the end of war in the world.

  • You see, this is the end of war in my world.

  • And this invitation that you have dropped into

  • so deeply, that's the beginning of the end of the war.

  • We could say it is the end of the war in you,

  • just now.

  • Just this beautiful,

  • beautiful gift of now.

  • Beautiful man, good man.

  • And...

  • I love...

  • The...

  • The way that you...

  • Open

  • so...

  • So childlike, so innocently.

  • Knowing that an audience is going to witness this.

  • We have much in common.

  • It's a gift,

  • this self.

  • This recognition.

  • It's...

  • It's a gift.

  • The tears are just a part of the leaving.

  • - Oh yeah, I know.

  • Yeah.

  • - It's beautiful.

  • And they're only like the physical

  • evidence of the recognition

  • we experience inside.

  • - Yeah.

  • - Like this flower opening.

  • The petals falling, it's so beautiful.

  • (laughter)

  • - Thank you.

  • (laughs)

  • I...

  • I just said to my wife,

  • I do have

  • even more informal questions

  • for you.

  • Do you mind if I...

  • - Of course not.

  • And of course I can say, I don't know.

  • Ask those questions and we'll find out.

  • - Exactly.

  • You can always say no.

  • - And who knows the future?

  • - Yeah, exactly.

  • Can I tell you something?

  • Pbht!

  • (laughter)

  • - Yeah, I get it.

  • (laughter)

  • - I read a little bit about your story,

  • and when you were,

  • like when you hit rock bottom,

  • and saw the cockroach.

  • I am very much interested in,

  • did you do something

  • that you could connect with your waking up?

  • Did you, was something going on in your mind?

  • - I was just in this dead sleep.

  • And many years of depression.

  • And in this dead sleep I was woken,

  • or awakened, so suddenly,

  • that mind didn't have an opportunity

  • to identify as object.

  • As body.

  • As object.

  • So, without identification...

  • I mean that was the experience.

  • And then I experienced

  • the mind happening,

  • and all of a sudden there was sky and windows

  • and walls and ceiling.

  • And but it still didn't connect

  • as this physical body.

  • It...

  • It wasn't a part of it.

  • But then as I

  • would say,

  • it began to just laugh.

  • Because it saw how the entire,

  • how my world was created.

  • It's nothing until it's named,

  • and then it's still nothing

  • until you believe that name.

  • And then the object becomes the apparent real.

  • So and then it,

  • in that laughter,

  • eventually just, it stood up.

  • It walked out of the room into a back room

  • and looked into the mirror.

  • And then it connected,

  • you know, the eyes.

  • I do this at the school for the work.

  • It's like something happened.

  • The eyes locked.

  • An it was a kind of identification

  • that was so subtle, so gentle,

  • so ineffective and entirely effective.

  • And The Work was born on that floor.

  • I saw that nothing was true.

  • And I saw how I reacted when I believed

  • that thought...

  • How do you react what happens when you believe

  • the thought?

  • I saw the entire world created in that moment.

  • And who would I be without it

  • is me prior to mind identifying.

  • Objects, window, floor, ceiling.

  • And then the opposites are true.

  • And so that enabled...

  • As I say, as true or truer.

  • But it's all left up to the mind to determine.

  • So it gave me a way

  • to live in the world

  • without ever living in the world again.

  • And so those, for people who have really

  • deep experiences, and I'm sure people have had

  • at least experiences,

  • experiences at least as deep as that.

  • It's just that I had The Work,

  • so it was maintained,

  • it was nurtured,

  • it's alive, this inquiry is alive in me

  • as it is in many people today.

  • - So you did apply it afterwards.

  • - Oh, it's alive, it's alive.

  • Like if you ask me my name,

  • I say Byron Katie, inside of me

  • it's like, Byron Katie?

  • Or I'd like a drink of water.

  • It's like, I want a drink of water?

  • In other words, everything just naturally ends

  • in a question mark.

  • The questioning mind.

  • - Wow.

  • Wonderful.

  • - And people that...

  • Invite this work into their meditation practice,

  • eventually it becomes a part of their mind as well,

  • I've noticed.

  • Just automatic.

  • But it's nurtured, it is a practice.

  • Until finally it takes hold of us.

  • But that takes a very open mind to,

  • or a very vulnerable.

  • You know, it's a practice.

  • It's a meditative practice,

  • and it does take stillness.

  • - That's I would say that's discipline

  • in the best sense.

  • - Yes, it's fascinating.

  • It's fascinating.

  • It's not about emptying the mind.

  • It's about allowing, surrendering to the mind

  • and just, just, just

  • offering up and is it true to the mind

  • that is childlike enough to entertain it?

  • - Mm.

  • - Good spending time with you.

  • - Likewise.

  • - Thank you, Armin.

  • - Thank you.

  • And best wishes from Switzerland,

  • Germany, Austria.

  • - Feels like home.

  • (laughter)

  • - By the way, I drove through Barstow.

  • - Oh, did you?

  • - A year ago.

  • Yes, we had to think about you so hard.

  • - Oh my gosh.

  • You know, I donated,

  • there were five houses there.

  • One, two, three.

  • There were five houses there,

  • and when I moved the Center...

  • I donated that property,

  • that entire thing to...

  • Some people who,

  • it was actually an agency that,

  • I don't know why I'm telling you this.

  • I guess just because I love visiting Barstow again.

  • But to an organization that took in

  • young mothers that had been abused

  • and were afraid for their lives.

  • So it was like a place where they could be,

  • learn an occupation,

  • learn how to take care of their children.

  • So there were cribs in every room

  • where we used to work and sleep and love and eat.

  • And it was just so beautiful.

  • So they could go out and get jobs

  • and care for their babes.

  • Then eventually that Center turned into a...

  • An alcohol and drug rehab place as well.

  • And I mean, went from one to the other.

  • Anyway, I love that place.

  • (laughter)

  • - A nice symbol for some of your biography.

  • - Yeah.

  • Oh, very much so.

  • - Yeah.

  • Well, thank you so much for your time,

  • for your presence, for your wisdom.

  • And for the connection.

  • Katie, and...

  • - Thank you.

  • And it's a privilege.

  • And be well, and thank you for the good you're doing,

  • Armin.

  • - Thank you.

  • You too.

  • Bye.

- Hello, Katie.

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A2 初級

赦しとは、あなたが薄いものではありません (Forgiveness Is Not What You Thin)

  • 51 3
    Satya Lai に公開 2021 年 01 月 14 日
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