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  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: Well, good morning.

  • My name is Jonathan Zittrain.

  • I teach here at the law school.

  • And we have a special treat today.

  • In some ways, it is a hearkening back

  • to the past of the '70s and '80s when there was a creature

  • called Socratic dialogue.

  • A guy named Fred Friendly got things started on PBS.

  • You may have seen such things.

  • It's people with plaid blazers--

  • I guess this is a subtle plaid --would pose hypotheticals

  • to one another and to a distinguished panel of guests,

  • which we have managed to replicate here,

  • and to see where the hypothetical plays out.

  • And because it's hypothetical, we

  • have the freedom to speak our minds,

  • how we would actually process it were we in the role

  • that we are in.

  • We have a number of folks who we're about to introduce them

  • in their current roles.

  • We can see how much wisdom and thought

  • they are going to bring to today's hypothetical.

  • First a warning that should not be needed on a panel involving

  • surveillance.

  • But we are all being surveilled.

  • This is being webcast live to an audience of indeterminate size

  • and may be used against you at any later time.

  • And I also just want to thank a number of the people that

  • have been involved in pulling together today's hypothetical.

  • That includes Samantha Bates, Jordy Winestock Adi Kamdar,

  • Lydia Licklider and others from our rare search group,

  • John Bowers, Annabel Kupke.

  • Who else am I missing?

  • Anybody else to thank for pulling together

  • our hypothetical today?

  • Really?

  • I'm sure I'll hear about it later,

  • but thank you all for having done it.

  • And without further ado, let's get

  • started but first let's introduce people

  • in their real world guises.

  • Alex MacGillivray, class of 2000, let's start with you.

  • You have a, not only checkered, but colored and kaleidoscopic

  • history with--

  • a coder before law school a coder during law school.

  • Then off to--

  • ALEXANDER MACGILLIVRAY: I really should just let you struggle.

  • This would be the one time that you--

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: Well, you ended up at Twitter.

  • But I feel like there was something in between.

  • Was it MTV?

  • ALEXANDER MACGILLIVRAY: I did Wilson Sonsini and then Google.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: Wilson Sonsini, then

  • Google as a lawyer, working on the Google Books project.

  • ALEXANDER MACGILLIVRAY: Yep.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: Which was a great attempt at a success.

  • Then [INAUDIBLE],, then general council of Twitter,

  • which everybody loves.

  • And then the White House, which everybody loves.

  • And now in Spain convalescing.

  • ALEXANDER MACGILLIVRAY: Unemployment,

  • which everybody loves.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: So thank you for coming out

  • of your senescence to join us today on the panel.

  • Cindy Cohn, currently executive director of the Electronic

  • Frontier Foundation.

  • By way of disclosure I should say I'm on the board of that.

  • Cindy, what else should we know about your background?

  • CINDY COHN: Oh, I don't know.

  • I guess you might want to know that in the 1990s,

  • I helped free encryption from government regulatory control,

  • making an argument that code is speech protected by the First

  • Amendment and the government's regulations on code

  • didn't meet the First Amendment test.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: The days of the clipper chip.

  • CINDY COHN: That would be crypto wars part un.

  • Now we're in deux.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: Which we are now farther along the line.

  • CINDY COHN: Yes.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: Well, thank you for your service.

  • Alex Abdo, former torts student extraordinaire,

  • who then went on to the American Civil Liberties Union,

  • now at the brand new Knight Institute

  • for the First Amendment.

  • Any highlights we should know of from your work?

  • ALEX ABDO: If you think the president shouldn't block

  • critics on Twitter, then you should follow our work

  • at the Knight Institute.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: That's right.

  • There's a current suit challenging

  • the action of @realDonaldTrump blocing people.

  • ALEX ABDO: That's right.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: Got it.

  • For which the remedy they actually want

  • is to be able to read his tweets.

  • Or is it more the direct messaging they're looking for?

  • ALEX ABDO: There's a bit more to it than that.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: Fair enough.

  • There is a constitutional principle at stake.

  • I want the right not to read the tweets that I'm allowed to see.

  • Got it.

  • Bruce Schneier, cryptologist, cryptographer--

  • I never knew the difference-- security

  • technologist, Dungeons and Dragons player extraordinaire,

  • chef.

  • What else should we know?

  • BRUCE SCHNEIER: I like to think I

  • work in the intersection of security technology and policy,

  • writing about privacy and security and data.

  • I don't know.

  • I teach here now and fellow at Berkman Klein Center.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: Wonderful.

  • You are indeed at the intersection.

  • Thank you.

  • David Sanger from The New York Times.

  • What should we know of your background?

  • DAVID SANGER: Let's see, went to college here.

  • Foreign correspondent for many years.

  • Came back to Washington.

  • I'm in year 23 of a three-year assignment to Washington.

  • So when you get stuck in the swamp, you're really stuck.

  • And I've covered the White House, covered technology.

  • I cover a lot of national security issues.

  • I have had more leak investigations directed at me

  • than I probably would care to recall.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: All of them earned.

  • DAVID SANGER: All of them earned, I hope.

  • I hope.

  • And I teach national security here at the Kennedy School.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: Perfect.

  • Thank you.

  • Daphna Renin, assistant professor

  • here at the law school, former Department of Justice official,

  • yes?

  • DAPHNA RENIN: Yes.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: In the Office of Legal Counsel was it?

  • DAPHNA RENIN: Yes.

  • From 2009 to 2012, I was there, first

  • in the Deputy Attorney General's office

  • and then in the Office of Legal Counsel.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: And what is the Office of Legal Counsel?

  • Why does the Justice Department need a lawyer?

  • DAPHNA RENIN: Well, the Office of Legal Counsel

  • is the lawyer to more than the Justice Department.

  • It's the office located inside DOJ

  • that advises the White House, the intelligence community,

  • the executive branch agencies, and DOJ

  • on complex constitutional and statutory questions.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: Got it.

  • Does the OLC have a lawyer?

  • That's it.

  • The buck stops with the OLC.

  • DAPHNA RENIN: That's right.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: Got it.

  • Matt Olsen, class of 88, former general counsel

  • of the National Security Agency, former director of the US

  • Counterterrorism Center.

  • Anything else we should know about your background?

  • MATTHEW OLSEN: Probably a proud card

  • carrying member of the deep state after many, many years

  • doing that.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: Isn't it like being a hipster?

  • If you say that's what you are, [INAUDIBLE]..

  • MATTHEW OLSEN: That's it.

  • You own it.

  • You embrace that role.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: I see.

  • MATTHEW OLSEN: And I think I might

  • be one of the few government people,

  • as the introductions go around.

  • So I'm expecting to--

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: You have quite a burden to carry.

  • MATTHEW OLSEN: --to have a lot on my shoulders.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: Yeah.

  • Great.

  • Thank you.

  • Macandrew-- Andrew McLaughlin, class of '94.

  • Former secretary of the board of the Internet Corporation

  • for Assigned Names and Numbers, ICAN.

  • ANDREW MCLAUGHLIN: That is true.

  • That's not really what my job was.

  • But if you want to pull out the weirdest title in my quiver--

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: Generally dyspeptic and combative.

  • It's important to point out, Jonathan,

  • that you and I have shared a residence for something

  • like eight years of our adult lives.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: But not currently.

  • At least to my knowledge.

  • MATTHEW OLSEN: It's true, but so my combativeness with you

  • is earned.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: Yeah.

  • Very good.

  • MATTHEW OLSEN: Need I bring up--

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: We were former law school roommates

  • and DC working roommates.

  • MATTHEW OLSEN: Also true.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: Yes, and I appreciate your lending me

  • your car all of times.

  • MATTHEW OLSEN: I'm not going to bring up the issue

  • of the breakfast bars again.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: Thank you again.

  • I will remind you this is being webcast.

  • And ended up working at Google, as basically

  • Google Secretary of State.

  • Is that the right description?

  • MATTHEW OLSEN: Policy guy.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: A policy guy.

  • Nothing to see here, folks, just a small cute little fox

  • in the chicken coop.

  • And then on to the White House, yes?

  • MATTHEW OLSEN: That's right.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: Deputy Chief Technology Officer

  • of the United States?

  • MATTHEW OLSEN: That's right.

  • My role was to screw up a bunch of stuff

  • that Alex then showed up to fix later.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: Got it.

  • Well, we hope you can replicate that again on the panel today.

  • And also more recently, you've been

  • at Betaworks which is an incubator/investor in a number

  • of companies, which also has made you,

  • I guess, CEO of such companies as Instapaper.

  • MATTHEW OLSEN: That's true.

  • Yeah.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: Thank you.

  • MATTHEW OLSEN: Yeah, that's right.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: Very good.

  • And now you are director of the new Center

  • for Innovation at Yale.

  • MATTHEW OLSEN: At Yale, that's right.

  • And off to the side, we've built kind

  • of like an investment firm for startups

  • that help Democrats win elections.

  • That's the thing I've been doing since November.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: Got it.

  • How is it going so far?

  • MATTHEW OLSEN: Obviously an overwhelming triumph.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: If they lose, do you still win?

  • MATTHEW OLSEN: No.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: Well, at least

  • the incentives are aligned.

  • MATTHEW OLSEN: None of us win.

  • JONATHAN ZITTRAIN: Very good.

  • All right.

  • So that is our opening panel.

  • And it's not only helpful to know their backgrounds,

  • but also to realize that for all of the organizations and roles

  • we've just described, our panel will emphatically not

  • be representing any of them as we get into our hypothetical.

  • And speaking of getting into a hypothetical, here it is.

  • David Sanger, you're sitting at your desk

  • at The New York Times.

  • Your plain old landline telephone rings.

  • You hear the shielded voice that's

  • been distorted by some dime-store, museum-of-spy kind

  • of thing.

  • This person says, I've got some neat documents for you

  • that you might be interested in.

  • It shows surveillance power abuse by a private company.

  • Are you interested in hearing more?

  • DAVID SANGER: Interested in hearing more, but the chances