エリック・マコーマック：「知覚」｜Googleで講演 (Eric McCormack: "Perception"

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ALAN SEALES: Please welcome Eric McCormack.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Hello.
ALAN SEALES: So the show is very different from what I typically
watch in that I guess it deals with a lot of mental illness
and people with those sorts of disorders.
I mean, what made you want to tackle this kind of show?
ERIC MCCORMACK: Well, I mean, it's
a bit of a throwback as a show, in terms of it's
a crime solving show at its heart,
but the guy doing the solving is the interesting character.
I mean, that there's a long period of time,
I think, with cop shows, in the last 10, 15
years, where Dick Wolf with "Law and Order" said,
we don't care about their personalities,
we don't go home with the cops, it's all about the crime.
And "CSI" took that even further.
But this is a throwback to "Columbo" and "Quincy"
and stuff, where the central character has quirks,
he has downfalls.
And in this case, he has paranoid schizophrenia.
And also, he's not a cop, nor is he
a lawyer-- he is a professor.
Most episodes begin in the classroom
with him teaching university students.
And in this one, in fact, in a couple
of-- perhaps even in the next scene,
we are actually in the Sorbonne in Paris,
and he's lecturing there.
I was drawn to it because as a character,
he is so multi-faceted.
Like Dr. House, he can be a bit of an asshole.
He's the smartest guy in the room,
but he can also, because of his condition,
suddenly be terrified.
He can be hallucinating something that ultimately will
help him, but in the moment, it can absolutely destroy him.
ALAN SEALES: So your character is who?
ERIC MCCORMACK: He is Dr. Daniel Pierce.
He is a neuroscience professor.
ALAN SEALES: Eccentric-- eccentric neuropsychiatrist.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Well, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, if paranoid schizophrenia
is an eccentricity, I guess he's eccentric.
He's a brilliant, brilliant guy that basically
had his first break with reality at about the age of 21
and could very easily have gone off the rails,
as so often happens, but he stayed
at the university he was at and eventually started
teaching there.
LeVar Burton plays his old friend
who is the dean of the university and is,
at least, when we started the series, two years ago, was
keeping Daniel's condition kind of under wraps.
It was pretty much a secret.
Everyone thought of him as eccentric,
not realizing that he was a diagnosed schizophrenic.
And that's come out in the series,
since the beginning of the second season.
He was kind of outed on the witness stand.
But still it's amazing because when I first read this,
I thought, I wonder how many people
living with this condition hold down
such a position of power and influence.
ALAN SEALES: Without people knowing?
ERIC MCCORMACK: Right.
Without people knowing, or even with people knowing.
What we all know about paranoid schizophrenia,
if we know anything at all, is the guy outside the 7-Eleven
is crazy and he's talking to himself,
and that's what the average person sees,
or they see the 6 o'clock news, and someone's just shut up
a room full of people, and guess what?
He's probably schizophrenic.
So that is the stigma that gets out there,
when in fact, there's a tremendous number of people
living with it that, in fact, run companies.
And my model-- after I got the part,
I did a lot of research and there's an incredible woman
named Elyn Saks who wrote a book called "The Center Cannot
Hold."
She's a university professor.
She's a law professor at USC.
But she was full blown schizophrenic in the early 70s,
and without her meds, would still be so now.
And yet, she teaches students, she writes books, she lectures.
She's a brilliant lecturer.
And I thought, it doesn't hurt to show America
there's another side of mental illness.
ALAN SEALES: So is that more what
appealed to you about the role?
You just wanted to increase education of the subject?
ERIC MCCORMACK: That's kind of a byproduct.
And it's a great one.
Ultimately, you just want to play an interesting part
that the audience is drawn to.
I didn't think, when I finished the sitcom, hey,
I should solve crimes, that's what
I should do, how can I do that?
But it is the most popular form of television, cable
or network, and defined an interesting way into that.
He's drawn into the FBI.
They use him, but he is not an FBI agent.
He's a professor whose expertise is called upon.
So I like the academic setting.
Like I say, every episode has university scenes.
And you don't see a lot of that on any series.
We have high school shows, but we don't necessarily
have a lot of college shows and particularly
at that level of academia.
So that drew me, too.
ALAN SEALES: The TA in the show-- he's been in nine years,
I think, in the college [INAUDIBLE]?
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yes.
You're right.
ALAN SEALES: Nine years and six degrees and still won't leave.
First of all, I love this story.
I was cast early.
Ken Biller, who created the show-- we got together.
And then I helped him cast the rest of the parts.
And my TA was to be named Max Lewicki.
And we took three guys to network,
two of them who looked like Lewickis.
And then this good looking black guy,
and of course, he walked in, and he was great.
We said, so he's got the part-- we're going to change the name,
right?
And Ken said, no, no, let's leave it.
Max Lewicki.
ALAN SEALES: That will throw them off.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Exactly.
So of course, we waited a long time,
and we were deep in the second season
before we finally explained that he was adopted by the Lewickis
or whatever.
And I'm always yelling at him.
He's quite beleaguered.
But it's fun to shout, Lewicki, and have that guy walk out.
ALAN SEALES: Was it Arjay Smith?
Right?
ERIC MCCORMACK: Arjay Smith.
ALAN SEALES: Yeah.
Yeah.
ERIC MCCORMACK: He's just a little [INAUDIBLE].
ALAN SEALES: From Nickelodeon's "Journey of Allen Strange"?
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yes.
ALAN SEALES: For some people here.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Apparently the young people liked the show.
ALAN SEALES: Yes.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yeah.
He was actually like a kid actor--
ALAN SEALES: Really?
ERIC MCCORMACK: That has grown into this lovely guy.
ALAN SEALES: Oh, yeah.
I love him on the show.
He's always right there--
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yeah.
ALAN SEALES: You know, giving you the one-two punch.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Exactly right.
ALAN SEALES: But is that weird?
Like, what in the show made you decide
to make him kind of like, sort of, a nurse to you?
ERIC MCCORMACK: Well, actually--
ALAN SEALES: Because he lives with you, on the show.
ERIC MCCORMACK: It was revealed in the second season,
but we explore it more this season
that that's literally what he was.
We met because the character, five years ago,
had a complete-- he went out of his mind
and was hospitalized for six months and institutionalized.
ALAN SEALES: Spoiler.
Spoiler.
Spoiler.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Well, yeah.
We've always hinted at that.
We've just never exported it dramatically.
And this season, we get some great flashbacks where
we get to see him meet Lewicki and while
ALAN SEALES: In season three?
ERIC MCCORMACK: He gets that job in season three.
ALAN SEALES: Yeah.
Yeah.
ERIC MCCORMACK: So that's great for Arjay to get to do that.
ALAN SEALES: Oh, that's cool.
That's really neat.
So the show, going into season three now,
is-- I mean, it's popular.
It's been renewed.
TNT's liking it.
What do you think really is driving the fan base?
What do you think people are finding
so interesting about the show?
ERIC MCCORMACK: Well, I've seen with this today
that when I started, 20 years ago,
and trying to get on television, you still
needed a pretty big audience--
ALAN SEALES: Right.
ERIC MCCORMACK: To be a success.
And of course, as you all know, it's changed entirely now.
And you can be a successful show with a very small group
of people if that group of people
are rabid and constantly googling you.
If they do have a rabid, devoted fanbase,
and the particular network you're on
doesn't demand a whole lot of people-- I mean,
"Mad Men" had a million people a year
for the first four or five years, right?
So I think--
ALAN SEALES: Which is not a lot.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yeah, which is not a lot.
ALAN SEALES: Yeah.
ERIC MCCORMACK: This particular show
we have-- I think we averaged about 5 million
the last two seasons.
And they're people that when I first signed on with TNT,
I said, who's your audience?
And Michael Wright, who runs the thing,
said, it's 50-year-old women.
And I said, all right.
ALAN SEALES: All right.
ERIC MCCORMACK: There you go.
They loved me.
50-year-olds loved me.
I mean, I'm the gay best friend they never had.
So that was kind of our way in, which which was that.
But also, TNT has a lot of crime shows.
So there's people that love to solve crimes.
So you mix those two things together.
And we definitely have our fanbase,
but we're trying to expand it because I
love that beyond the mystery of the week
is this very complex character.
And we can do that in this clip.
I don't know if you've ever seen the show,
but him hallucinating is a very big part of the show.
He is basically off his meds, not for any good reason.
It's the hubris of-- and this is, again,
part of the condition.
People that get on their meds sometimes
cycle off because they don't like
how they feel when they're on them.
They don't like being controlled.
He's definitely someone that doesn't
like having his mind controlled.
He's a brain guy.
So he freely hallucinates sometimes.
And in the most of the episodes, those hallucinations
are part of what's guiding him towards-- they're
the reason he hallucinates that woman
or we have one this season where I hallucinate the devil.
I actually have great conversations with the devil.
But there's a reason for it that is leading me
to solving the case.
ALAN SEALES: Well how much research
did you do for the role?
I mean, did you just say, oh, this person's imaginary,
so I'll pretend, or what all did you do?
ERIC MCCORMACK: No.
I didn't write the show.
Ken and Mike Sussman wrote it.
So a lot of that was on the page.
My research had to do with what do symptoms look like,
and what do they feel like, and how?
You know, sometimes with series, you can sort of get it
right in the pilot, and then eventually,
by the second season, maybe you've
figured out the character.
I couldn't afford to.
I thought the mental health community would just
shut me down if I came out half-cocked.
So I did a lot of research up front with Elyn's book
and Oliver Sacks' books and just trying
to get a sense of-- because I not only had
to get his mental health condition
right-- I had to get him right as a teacher, as an academic,
as a neuroscientist.
And there's a lot of-- I mean, that's some of the most fun
stuff to say is ventromedial prefrontal cortex.
ALAN SEALES: Right.
ERIC MCCORMACK: It's fun to say.
So that kind of research was crucial up front, too.
ALAN SEALES: Well, you meet any of the patients
with similar symptoms or anything?
ERIC MCCORMACK: Well, Ellen was a big one.
I sat down to lunch with her.
And I did ask.
I mean, it was very laid out in her book.
But to hear her talk about it, herself, and-- hers was more,
as with a lot of people with the condition,
is more voices than it is visual.
But this is television, so his voices
tend to have-- it's gonna be actors we can cast,
and you can see them.
ALAN SEALES: Right.
ERIC MCCORMACK: But so yeah, I did a lot of research
in that department, to make sure that we weren't doing anything
hokey.
Of course, it's television-- there's
going to be an element of, are you going to buy this?
But there's nothing we've done-- there's no-- a lot of cases
that we look into, the reason my character's brought on
is because there's a mental illness,
you know, so someone looks like they're crazy.
Well, actually, they're not crazy.
They have this condition, which made
it look like they were confessing to something
that they didn't do.
ALAN SEALES: Well, it's always you--
it seems like it's you convincing or changing
the mind of somebody who was convinced of--
based on a preconceived notion, I guess.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Right.
Right.
ALAN SEALES: Right
ERIC MCCORMACK: And so it's not just
that through the character, we get to see layers of him.
We get to see, through his expertise, all
of these other conditions.
And it's becoming, as we know, a huge part of the legal system
now, that, you know, it's not black and white anymore.
You plead insanity or not plead insanity.
There are so many conditions that
are now recognized medically that
are going to have-- they're going to come out
in the courtroom as a defense.
And they're going to be harder and harder to bat away.
We're going to have to face the fact that we
have to deal with mental illness.
ALAN SEALES: Right.
ERIC MCCORMACK: We can't just lock it up.
ALAN SEALES: So you won an award-- the Award of Courage--
for what they say, your groundbreaking portrayal of Dr.
Daniel Pierce, right?
So what is that award?
I mean, why do they give that out?
ERIC MCCORMACK: It was the neuroscience department at UCLA
that gives various awards every year.
But there's one for media and accurate representations
of their work in the media.
And this was more for the portrayal of mental illness,
more than it was the neuroscience,
but because they like it, I thought,
it kind of covers both.
But the beautiful thing was it was presented by Elyn Saks.
So the fact that she got up and said
to the world, what he's doing is accurate and true to what
people living with it go through, it meant a lot.
ALAN SEALES: Hm.
So how do you play this character?
I mean, I guess, how do you prepare
for this character differently from other things
that you've done?
ERIC MCCORMACK: There's a frantic state of mind
that is not hard for me to be in, unfortunately.
He just, he very rarely is at peace.
And so mostly, it's about energy.
It's about coming in with a lot of it
and understanding that that's what
he's always trying to tamp down.
It's not just the voices, but the paranoia and the fear.
The fear is very real.
And the one-- I thought this piece of writing was great,
particularly, once I met Ellen, was in the classroom,
he's a rock star.
In the classroom, he's got his students.
They love him.
It takes me back.
I don't know if--
ALAN SEALES: Throwing themselves at him?
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yes.
I'm probably the oldest person in the room,
but there was a show called "The Paper Chase" in the late '70s
that John Houseman played this legal professor.
And I remember the classroom scenes.
He was very, very vat.
He was very-- but you were riveted to him
because you watched students riveted to him.
And it's kind of the same thing here, too.
He's fun and he's funny.
And he loves the jargon.
He loves teaching.
He gets outside the classroom, and in a group of people
he can be a complete basket case.
ALAN SEALES: Right.
Right.
So you also direct and produce this, correct?
ERIC MCCORMACK: I am a producer on it.
And I just directed an episode this year, which was great.
ALAN SEALES: The second episode of season three, I think?
ERIC MCCORMACK: Second is the one
that follows this Paris episode.
Yeah.
We're in Paris because at the end of last season,
I quit my job, as you can see, and followed this woman that I
love, and--
ALAN SEALES: Who is real--
ERIC MCCORMACK: Who is real.
ALAN SEALES: Which confused me--
ERIC MCCORMACK: The blond girl.
Yes.
ALAN SEALES: Confused me for awhile.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Well, she's the girl-- the blond girl--
that was in the apartment with me, saying,
you know, you've got to be careful,
you're not on your meds-- she's not real.
I've hallucinated her for 25 years.
She is a girl that I, as we learned
at the end of the first season-- because the whole first season,
the audience knew she wasn't real,
but it's like why is she-- am I hallucinating someone
from my past, am I hallucinating an ex-lover?
It turns out that she was a girl I saw across a crowded room
and never met.
But from that day-- that was pretty much the day I had
my first break with reality and I started, in my mind,
dating her and calling her and--
ALAN SEALES: You were in love with the idea.
ERIC MCCORMACK: I was in love with this woman
who became very, very real.
And at the end of the first season--
it was a really cool episode-- we met.
Kelly Rowan played both parts-- the woman
I had been hallucinating for 25 years,
and the real woman, who I never saw since that party,
is my doctor, after I lose my shit, one day.
I'm taken to the hospital, and there's Natalie.
And I'm like, they're giving me medication--
why am I still seeing you?
And she's like, we've never met, Dr. Pierce,
my name is Caroline.
And it was great just to realize that sometimes,
like I say, when you see someone talking
to themselves in the street, they're talking to someone very
real-- maybe their own father, maybe somebody
that is, as far as they're concerned, very, very there.
And I think that also helps to remind an audience that--
ALAN SEALES: Right.
ERIC MCCORMACK: For what they're going through,
it's absolutely here now.
ALAN SEALES: Well, let's get back
to the producing part of it.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Oh, the producing part.
ALAN SEALES: That was the original question.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yes.
So when I came out with Ken, I just said, look,
you don't need my help producing the show,
but I think I need to be a guardian of this character
in a way that-- because he's writing the show.
Ken is up there with [INAUDIBLE].
So as we're working with different directors,
it's crucial that somebody on set
be guarding the heart of the show, and--
ALAN SEALES: So what does a producer do, exactly?
ERIC MCCORMACK: A producer can do any number of things.
I mean, you can give money-- you can give a million bucks
and never do anything else.
ALAN SEALES: Is that the executive producer?
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yeah, well, exactly right.
I just did a movie before Christmas-- an independent film
with Parker Posey.
And one of the producers is Lars Ulrich,
the drummer from Metallica.
He showed up one day to say, hi.
I think he just gave some money.
You know?
I mean, that's-- but he's still a producer.
You can be the person that owns the property.
You can buy a book and say, I'm going
to make this into a movie.
You never have to do anything else except own that book,
and you're still a producer, whereas, the guys that
make our show happen day after day after day after day
are a different kind of producer.
I mean, they are hands on, making the show happen.
Ken, who created the show, is the executive producer
because the words come out of his head.
And in my case, like I said, I produce it
by helping to cast it and by, when the show is shot,
helping to edit it and have a say in how it comes out.
ALAN SEALES: Hm.
That's really neat.
OK.
So the show is set in Chicago.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yes.
ALAN SEALES: You film in LA.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yes.
ALAN SEALES: Are there any challenges with that?
ERIC MCCORMACK: Well, there's a few.
There are no palm trees in Chicago.
So there's just certain places we just
can't point the camera anywhere.
We're like, oh, Christ, what are we going to do now?
But there's that.
Plus, I decided-- we shot the pilot in Toronto, which
is where I'm from, which was great.
All of those university shots are the University of Toronto.
ALAN SEALES: Oh, really?
OK.
ERIC MCCORMACK: And so we had to recreate that in LA.
There's no buildings in Los Angeles that
look like that except for one church in Pasadena.
So that's where we shoot, now, all of our university stuff.
ALAN SEALES: In the internal-- the internal shots?
ERIC MCCORMACK: No.
The internal's all a set.
But these external, when I'm outside
on benches and beautiful trees, that's
all this little church courtyard, which is--
ALAN SEALES: Oh, cool.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Hysterical.
That, and I also decided that, based on my research, someone
with his condition-- particularly,
someone not on their meds-- they need routine.
They need the comfort of things not changing,
which is why-- I don't know if you saw in that scene--
what I'm listening to on my headphones, it's a Walkman.
It's a Sony Walkman that he's had for 25 years.
The sneakers, he's probably never changed.
And that coat and scarf were in the pilot, and I said,
I think he always wears this.
This is his armor against the world.
And in Los Angeles, in June, sometimes I hate myself.
ALAN SEALES: So-- well, you're saying that the character,
I guess, the people with schizophrenia like to have
stability and things not changing--
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yeah, they need it.
ALAN SEALES: Is there a link to OCD, as well, with that,
or is this holistically different?
ERIC MCCORMACK: With OCD, it's-- and I'm not going to become
a scientist here because I just play one on TV-- but I mean,
yeah, I'm sure there's definitely a link.
And in this case, though, it's more about just not
letting fear rule you and having control.
Paranoid schizophrenics generally feel out of control.
ALAN SEALES: Right.
ERIC MCCORMACK: They cannot control what's around them.
ALAN SEALES: Because they legitimately
don't know what's real and what's not?
Or--
ERIC MCCORMACK: Well, I mean, it does vary in degrees,
like, for instance, most paranoid schizophrenics--
and I shouldn't use that term-- people living
with paranoid schizophrenia don't necessarily
hallucinate visually.
More common is voices-- sounds, even-- that kind of thing.
So it does vary.
But what was the previous thing you said?
Something about--
ALAN SEALES: The challenges of filming in LA?
ERIC MCCORMACK: Oh, no, no.
ALAN SEALES: Oh, no, no.
The OCD.
ERIC MCCORMACK: The OCD--
ALAN SEALES: Yes.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Whereas, you know,
I think OCD is also a need.
It's a need for control, too-- a need
to control your environment as best you can.
ALAN SEALES: Right.
So the creator of the show-- what
was his idea behind even bringing it into conception?
I mean, does he have somebody that he
knows that's living with similar symptoms?
ERIC MCCORMACK: I think there was someone close in his life
that-- I'd probably have to let him answer that question.
But Mike Sussman, the other co-creator,
had actually come to Ken and said,
I don't know what to do with this,
but I think at the center of a show,
someone with paranoid schizophrenia
could be really interesting.
And Ken was already working with TNT
on trying to come up with another mystery solving show.
And then he came up with the idea
of setting it in-- making him a neuroscientist.
I mean, that's the part that I love,
is that someone who knows more about the brain than anybody
in the room, his own brain is his worst enemy.
ALAN SEALES: Right.
I always feel like there's a little bit
of ice outside of the classroom.
The character is always slightly just holding back,
being incredibly mean to somebody
because they feel they're intellectually--
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yeah.
ALAN SEALES: Your character feels
that the person is intellectually inferior?
So you're like, why are you bothering me,
why don't you get this?
ERIC MCCORMACK: I mean, it's nice.
I was quite likable on "Will and Grace,"
and it's fun to sometimes not be likable.
I mean, Dr. Pierce is a dick sometimes, which is really fun.
And it is hubris.
It is intellectual hubris.
ALAN SEALES: Right.
ERIC MCCORMACK: You know?
And to see someone behave that way
and lord his intelligence over the room,
and then suddenly be terrified because he saw someone there
who was not there is to remind everyone of his humility,
as well.
ALAN SEALES: Well, OK.
So "Will and Grace" was the first time on prime time TV
that two openly gay characters were leads in a sitcom.
So that was groundbreaking, brought
all of this educational--
ERIC MCCORMACK: If you don't include "The Odd Couple."
ALAN SEALES: Right.
Yes.
Well, were they?
Yes, they specifically said.
So that brought a lot of awareness
and a lot of, I guess, education to the gay community,
or focus on it, which made people
more comfortable and whatnot.
So do you think that playing Dr. David Pierce on "Perception"
is going to do the same thing for mental illness
or bring that to light?
ERIC MCCORMACK: I mean, it would be great if that was the case.
I mean, certainly with "Will and Grace," we never-- I mean,
it was a sitcom, and it was an outrageous one, at times.
So we didn't pat ourselves on the back ever,
with hey, look what we're doing.
Time took that and last year, the Vice President
said, on "Meet the Press," that-- out of the blue,
because they were talking about gay marriage,
and he said he thought that "Will and Grace" had done more
to educate the American public on them.
And that took time.
The show, we started in '98.
So hopefully, with a show like this,
there will be other shows, and mental illness-- we'd have to.
I mean, the last few weeks of school shootings and everything
else, I mean, every time, as soon as it happens,
it's not the gun's fault-- it's mental illness.
It's like, OK, guys, well, if that's the case, then
what are we going to do?
How are we going to increase the funding
and increase the awareness and help these people before they
get lost in the system?
You know?
So this show is not going to cure that overnight.
ALAN SEALES: Right.
ERIC MCCORMACK: But hopefully it's
putting that idea into people's minds,
that not everyone with the condition is dangerous
and that the more educators that we have
and the more education that we have, the better.
ALAN SEALES: You know, it seems to me that it's easy-- I mean,
just like anything else in the world--
I'm going to get on my political high horse for a second--
that it's very easy to just ignore things and pretend
they're OK, and let somebody else deal with your problems.
And then as soon as there's like a school shooting or something
statistically relevant that says we need to pay attention,
those people are like, I don't know
what they're talking about.
Right?
So your character in "Perception"-- I think it
speaks to that a lot.
And you know, it might not, by itself, make a big difference,
but it could-- it's like the very tip of the iceberg.
ERIC MCCORMACK: What I do like is that every,
I would say out of-- say we're doing 15 episodes this year.
Probably out of 10 of those, there
is someone who is either wrongly accused because
of a mental illness or the mental illness
is not something easily diagnosed.
It's something that takes his expertise,
over the course of the episode, to go, it's this.
So in the end of an episode, an audience
has learned that much more about a condition
they would never otherwise have heard about--
ALAN SEALES: Right.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Much as people do with physical things
on "ER" or "Grey's Anatomy."
You walk away going, oh, I've never heard of that.
But with this, it's like, well, guess what-- there really
is something called Aphasia, where people can't recognize
a face, or whatever it is.
Interesting.
And it also helps people to feel less alone because everybody's
got something.
I mean, like--
ALAN SEALES: Right.
ERIC MCCORMACK: A quarter of the country's
technically depressed.
You know?
I mean, it's like everyone's got something
that actually qualifies as--
ALAN SEALES: Or falls on the Asperger's syndrome somewhere.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Mental illness.
Yeah.
Yeah, or in the spectrum.
Yes.
ALAN SEALES: Yeah.
ERIC MCCORMACK: It's becoming more and more
a part of the conversation in ways it never was 25 years ago.
ALAN SEALES: So everything on the show-- is it actually real?
All of these diagnoses and everything?
So do you have a consultant that's
with you in the writer's room or on set with you?
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yes, we do have David Eagleman, who
wrote an incredible book called "Incognito--
The Secret Lives of the Brain," or "The Secret Life
of the Brain."
He is kind of what Pierce would be, I guess,
if Pierce didn't have this condition because Eagleman's
in his '40s, and he's kind of hip
neuroscience professor and author.
And his books are about the aspects of the brain that we
don't think of, just cool stuff like--
I remember the first time, when I read it,
the first fact that jumped out at me,
that the brain cannot process what's coming at you,
for instance, as fast as a fast ball comes at a pitcher.
So the idea--
ALAN SEALES: Yeah.
ERIC MCCORMACK: That a pitcher chooses to swing,
or chooses not to swing, at a fast ball--
ALAN SEALES: The batter.
ERIC MCCORMACK: --at the batter, is a fallacy.
There wouldn't be enough time to choose.
It's instinct.
It's physical instinct that makes
him go because the brain is slower than--
ALAN SEALES: That's why they get hit
in the head when it's a stray pitch.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yes.
That kind of thing.
ALAN SEALES: Because they don't have enough time to react.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Basically that.
So to have a guy like that, we know
the writers do their research.
They come up with stuff.
They write it.
They write the lingo, the lectures, the diagnoses.
And then he will go through every script
and say, nah, that's not how he'd say it.
ALAN SEALES: Well, how does that work?
Did you go through and you're like, all right,
let's do this disorder.
All right, let's write about it.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Kind of.
I mean, once you realize, hey, they
picked us up for another season, we need 15 disorders to film,
you know, they start trying to find some.
And we just did one where our most junior writer
was like, you finally got a script, go.
And she found something called mirror-touch synesthesia which
is rare but exists as a condition
where if you're feeling angry, it's like the ultimate empath,
like what's her name from "Star Trek."
It's total empathy.
So I would feel your anger.
And if you were feeling nauseous, I might throw up.
And we did a whole episode not on that condition,
but her condition leads us-- she's witness to a crime.
Someone is stabbed in the neck, and she goes down
because she feels the pain of the knife.
ALAN SEALES: Oh, that's so weird.
I mean, I want to [INAUDIBLE] on this for a second.
But does she sense it?
Does the person-- what is it?
ERIC MCCORMACK: She feels it.
ALAN SEALES: Like, the person senses--
ERIC MCCORMACK: She feels it.
ALAN SEALES: So if you just come in to me,
and you're acting all happy and everything, like,
your pheromones-- you're letting off
that you're the angriest person right now.
But you're happy right now, and I would just
get really angry because of it?
ERIC MCCORMACK: You would take it on.
ALAN SEALES: Wow.
ERIC MCCORMACK: You would take it on.
ALAN SEALES: There's so much of the brain that baffles me,
like by paying attention to the five senses
that we're just not paying attention to
and we're not listening to.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Exactly.
Yeah.
ALAN SEALES: That's really cool.
I just totally got myself sidetracked on that.
Sorry.
Let's see.
Yeah, OK.
I talked about that.
All right, so speaking of "Star Trek," LeVar Burton, right?
ERIC MCCORMACK: LeVar Burton.
ALAN SEALES: OK.
Every time I look at him-- this is another side note,
but I always think it's weird that he doesn't have
the visor on, every time I see him without it.
And I grew up watching "Reading Rainbow," right?
ERIC MCCORMACK: Did you hear about the whole "Reading
Rainbow" thing that just happened?
ALAN SEALES: I invested in it.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Oh, you did?
ALAN SEALES: Yeah.
The kickstarter, yeah.
ERIC MCCORMACK: That's quite amazing.
ALAN SEALES: Yeah.
Yeah.
I thought it was great.
ERIC MCCORMACK: His last day of shooting
for this season was that first day.
ALAN SEALES: Oh, really? [INAUDIBLE]
ERIC MCCORMACK: He told me the day before.
We're hoping to raise $1 million in 30 days.
And by 6 o'clock on the first day, while we were shooting,
they had $1 million.
It was amazing.
I don't know what they have now-- five or six, or something
crazy.
ALAN SEALES: Yeah, I invested in it a couple of days ago.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yes.
So he owns the visor.
ALAN SEALES: Does he really?
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yeah.
Well I love LeVar.
LeVar directed two episodes this year.
ALAN SEALES: Have you worn the visor?
ERIC MCCORMACK: We have so much-- that, I have not--
ALAN SEALES: Have you worn it?
ERIC MCCORMACK: I think he might let me if I ask.
But-- but-- no one owns his career like LeVar does.
ALAN SEALES: Right.
ERIC MCCORMACK: The other day, he
tweeted-- because I know him from "Roots" in like '77
when he played Kunta Kinte.
And he literally tweeted the other day, hey Denver,
Kunta's in town.
Like, I can't even imagine saying, hey, boys, Will's here.
But I think he's got a tattoo that
says-- if you read it this way, it says "LeVar,"
but if you look at it this way, it says "Kunta."
Amazing.
ALAN SEALES: All right.
I'm cool with that.
ERIC MCCORMACK: He's an awesome guy.
ALAN SEALES: So what made you reach out to him for the role?
Like, why does he make sense?
ERIC MCCORMACK: Ken Biller, who created the show,
ran "Star Trek" for several years.
ALAN SEALES: Well, there you go.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yeah, he was the show runner on that show
for like four years, I think.
So he was already pretty adept at coming up
with some crazy shit, you know?
ALAN SEALES: Right.
ERIC MCCORMACK: When you're in season six of "Star Trek,"
and you're just making up planets and races and language,
it's a pretty good background for--
ALAN SEALES: That's pretty cool.
So for season four of "Perception,"
you have to, like, have some character that thinks he's--
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yes.
Exactly right.
ALAN SEALES: Knock on wood-- who thinks
he's in a "Star Trek" episode.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yes.
ALAN SEALES: That's my writer's contribution--
ERIC MCCORMACK: That's a good one.
ALAN SEALES: For you.
ERIC MCCORMACK: That's good.
ALAN SEALES: Yeah.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Wait, actually, I've got to say,
we pretty much had that.
And I'll tell you why.
Beginning of last season, we set an entire episode at Comic Con.
So there was a crime involved there.
And I had to go.
And I had to be at Comic Con, surrounded
by Darth Vaders and Princess Leias.
And I hallucinate one of the-- like a Comic Con
fan in some sort of space gear.
And he was supposed to be dressed as either something
"Star Trek" or-- no, we had "Star Wars."
He was supposed to be dressed as someone "Star Trek,"
and then we couldn't get the rights
at the last minute or something.
But I was supposed to he hallucinating Leonard Nimoy.
And we almost had him playing himself.
And then he backed out at the last minute.
ALAN SEALES: Oh, no.
ERIC MCCORMACK: So instead I hallucinated this man.
ALAN SEALES: This person cosplaying Leonard Nimoy?
ERIC MCCORMACK: What I want to pitch,
next season-- I want to hallucinate someone
that thinks I'm a hallucination.
So just whenever I see him, I walk up,
and he's like, leave me alone, leave me alone!
And he's running from me.
And I'm like, wait!
ALAN SEALES: No, I'm real!
I'm real!
ERIC MCCORMACK: I'm real!
I think that would be--
ALAN SEALES: What if your character
is hallucinating a guy who thinks you're fake.
ERIC MCCORMACK: That's what I'm saying.
That's [INAUDIBLE].
Yeah.
I'm hallucinating a guy--
ALAN SEALES: So every time you walk up to your hallucination--
ERIC MCCORMACK: That believes he's the real thing.
ALAN SEALES: I would watch that.
ERIC MCCORMACK: You see?
ALAN SEALES: In fact, I am watching it.
So the rest of the cast--
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yes.
ALAN SEALES: Is actually very, very good.
So you've got, who?
Rachael Leigh Cook.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Rachael Leigh Cook who was in "She's All
That" that I don't know if anybody [INAUDIBLE]--
I guess I was probably in my 30s,
by the time that movie was made.
So I didn't-- it wasn't a big one for me.
But there are some, like, younger women on our set that
work in different departments for whom "She's All That"
was like this touchstone movie of coming of age.
So they love-- and Rachel's awesome.
ALAN SEALES: So the role has obviously, probably got-- what?
The most screen time, second to your character, right?
ERIC MCCORMACK: Mhm.
ALAN SEALES: So it was obviously an important role to cast.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yes.
ALAN SEALES: Like, why her?
ERIC MCCORMACK: She's the FBI agent.
She's the one who has these cases that there
is an element they can't solve, and if it
seems to have a scientific or a neuroscientific element,
she'll come to me, which happens--
ALAN SEALES: Every episode.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Every week.
ALAN SEALES: It seems like the only people she--
ERIC MCCORMACK: It's exactly right.
ALAN SEALES: Yeah.
ERIC MCCORMACK: And we were seeing a lot of,
like, tall, beautiful, tough, you
know, sort of almost typical kind of women
they'd see on these kind of shows.
ALAN SEALES: Like Jennifer Garner.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yeah.
And, like, really capable.
And then in came Rachel, who's quite petite and gorgeous.
But you don't immediately go, FBI agent.
But it made me think of "The Silence of the Lambs,"
when Judy-- Jodie-- Judy F--
ALAN SEALES: Jodie Foster.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Jodie Foster.
Judy?
When Jodie Foster was standing there--
I think was up there at the morgue or the funeral home--
and there's like five or six state troopers standing around
her.
And they're all, like, big guys.
And she's this big.
And they're all staring at her like, what are-- who are you?
What are you going to do?
And I remember just thinking how it illustrated
how much of a mountain she had to climb.
And that's kind of what we wanted.
We wanted someone who was constantly trying to prove
herself in a man's world and in this very sort of misogynist
FBI, and that bringing me in helped-- that I wasn't, I mean,
my characters hardly macho, so it's--
She came in with a kind of a sense of humor.
She's has a very ironic delivery.
She's a very funny, funny girl.
And her audition just was-- it just sort of
set the room on fire, originally.
ALAN SEALES: So in your head, when you saw the character
on paper first, did you have a different idea of what it would
be before she started putting it out there in the real--
ERIC MCCORMACK: Well, the other thing
was that she's supposed to have been a student of mine.
And there's a little bit of that-- what
I call the don't stand so close to me relationship which-- God,
my references are ancient today.
What the fuck.
I don't what that is.
Let me tell you an Al Jolson story.
But so we needed somebody of a certain age.
She needed to be kind of her early 30s,
for me to have taught her.
And she appeared to still be quite young which was great,
too.
So that sort of romantic, unrealized thing
has been a thread throughout the show, too.
So we need to find someone not only who
would be an unlikely but fascinating FBI
agent-- we needed someone that you kind of root for.
I learned early on-- you know this term "shipping"?
So you know.
You're on the internet.
But I didn't know it.
So for those that don't know, it's
mostly young women that watch shows like "Bones"
or "The Mentalist" and root for these lead characters
to get together.
And they root for the relationship.
So they start shipping these shows
and tweeting them all of the time
and creating blogs about them and fan fiction and everything.
So I thought, I want this to happen right away.
I am not wasting any time here.
So as the show started-- the show premiered two years ago,
and I was actually here in New York doing a show on Broadway.
And I got Twitter at that point, for the first time.
And I just started tweeting constantly, start shipping us,
everybody, don't you want to us to sleep together?
I know you haven't seen the show yet,
but you're going to really want us to sleep together
eventually, so tweet.
And so it kind of started.
And now that she's in the shower with Donnie, with Scott Wolf
there, as we saw, there's a lot of--
ALAN SEALES: "Party of Five."
ERIC MCCORMACK: "Party of Five."
He's another awesome guy.
There's a lot of shippers going, why is she with Donnie?
I don't like her with him.
ALAN SEALES: Hold it.
What is it from "Twilight"?
The club-- whatever in the club underground.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Exactly right.
ALAN SEALES: Club Long Hair and Club Shirtless,
or-- I don't know who they are.
I don't watch the show.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yeah.
ALAN SEALES: So if you guys have any questions for Eric,
please use the mics over here.
Because we've got a few minutes left,
I want to hit on the Broadway that you just mentioned.
So your past life, you've been a Broadway star.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Well, the theater
was definitely my start.
I didn't even audition for television
until I was almost 30.
It was my 20s were spent in Canada at the Stratford
festival, doing Shakespeare, and regional theaters
across that country.
And I did "The Music Man" here, years ago.
And then this last one I did was just incredible.
It was a revival of Gore Vidal's "The Best Man" with James Earl
Jones and Angela Lansbury and John Larroquette and Candice
Bergen and Michael McKean-- this incredibly big and wonderful
cast.
And I got to play a real asshole which was just awesome.
It's a political piece.
It's two guys running for the same party,
though one seems very, very liberal--
it was the John Larroquette character--
and I got to be kind of the Republican asshole, which
was so great.
ALAN SEALES: Do you like playing the asshole
versus the nice guy?
ERIC MCCORMACK: I've actually been
a villain in a lot of things.
My first big television role was on a western-- "Lonesome Dove,"
the spin-off from the miniseries.
And I got to play the sort of badass Civil War
Confederate colonel.
ALAN SEALES: That's fun.
Yeah?
AUDIENCE: Hey.
Well, thanks for coming.
I used to watch "Will and Grace" all of the time.
And I remember one episode that you guys had,
where you filmed it live.
And you guys were hysterical laughing the whole time, which
was very funny because--
ERIC MCCORMACK: I was not.
Messing was dying to be Carol Burnett.
So she was determined to fall apart.
Yes.
AUDIENCE: But I assume that, always,
filming "Will and Grace" must been
the funniest thing every day.
So I was just curious how your experience filming
a more serious show was, compared to some--
ERIC MCCORMACK: It's definitely two different muscles.
I started in drama.
I mean, I started in-- that was my-- comedy was
this other thing that I thought, that must be fun.
And when I finally got to LA and started
auditioning for sitcoms, it was an entirely other world.
We had a tremendous amount of fun,
particularly because everything was
shot in front of a live audience.
We shot an episode in four hours in front of a studio audience
who by second and third season had
had their tickets for six months, you know?
And so they were excited to be there.
And I realized very early on that
if you fuck up in the first scene, they love it.
So I just, I'd start throwing F bombs around,
and they were like, oh my God, [INAUDIBLE]--?
So it was fantastic.
So that's why, if you google "Will and Grace" outtakes,
sometimes they're funnier than some of the episodes
because we had a lot of fun.
And we still have a lot of fun on this show
but it is an entirely different--
it takes 14 hours to shoot it in a day,
and it's not as funny a subject.
ALAN SEALES: Right.
AUDIENCE: Thank you.
ALAN SEALES: So how did you get your start, though?
So you started out doing theater in high school?
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yeah.
I did a play in first grade.
It kept going from there.
It was always theatre.
I didn't do, like, commercials or anything.
I went to high school with Mike Myers
on the south side of Toronto.
ALAN SEALES: He's Canadian.
Yeah.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yeah so we knew each other a little bit.
But he was already in Canadian television
when he was like nine, ten.
And then he was doing commercials and episodes
of things.
But I was strictly just theatre at school and competitions--
you know, skit competitions and stuff.
But 11th grade is when it sort of-- I
did a production of "Godspell," and that was, you know.
ALAN SEALES: Who were you in "Godspell"?
ERIC MCCORMACK: Christ.
As I affectionately call him, Christ.
That changed everything because it's kind of a rock musical,
compared to-- we had been doing "Annie Get Your Gun"
and all of those old-fashioned things.
And all of a sudden, to have my peers, who had never
really accepted me-- I was not an athlete or anything--
suddenly, like, forced to watch one of the songs
at an assembly, you know, and at the end of it,
they jumped on their feet and cheered.
It was like, OK, I can do this.
This I can do for a living.
ALAN SEALES: So you sing.
ERIC MCCORMACK: I sing.
ALAN SEALES: Yeah, of course, because you
were in "Music Man" and everything, as well.
Yes.
So you just did a concert-- what was this?
A year or two ago?
ERIC MCCORMACK: I did a show that I
had been sort of creating in my brain for 30 years.
It was called "The Concert I Never Gave-- except for, like,
2000 times in my bedroom" because I did.
I was that guy, at 16.
When other people were doing things
like dating and drinking, I was in my bedroom
dressing up like Alice Cooper and Freddie Mercury
and wishing that I could be a rock star.
So I really wanted to be an actor.
And I got to be.
So that was no longer the fantasy.
The fantasy, to this day, is still rock and roll.
So I did this show where I sang.
It was myself and my piano player who is a friend of mine.
He's the keyboard player for The Who.
So already, there's kind of a fantasy level there.
He put together this band.
And I sang-- it was mostly songs by popular artists but not.
The songs themselves were like B-sides
and, like, you know, the last song on side
three of some album that-- but they were my favorites
when I was 16.
And I had stories behind them.
And when Elton John did "Will and Grace,"
there was a story behind that.
So I'd tell that story.
Then I did this rare Elton John song.
ALAN SEALES: Right.
Right.
I feel like doing a sitcom-- this kind of plays
on her question a little bit-- doing a sitcom
would be more enjoyable for you in that it is more theatresque.
Right?
Because you're in front of a live audience.
You only do a couple takes.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yeah.
ALAN SEALES: I mean, in a theatre, you have no retakes.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Exactly.
And as you were pointing out, twice,
we did actually live episodes, like,
as America was watching them, we were doing them.
And those were-- they didn't look as good because it
was videotaped, but it was tremendous fun.
ALAN SEALES: Right.
Well, do you prefer that?
Do you prefer the live aspect, versus [INAUDIBLE]?
ERIC MCCORMACK: I really do.
I mean, I'll always do back to the theatre because I do love
that a lot.
And a show like this takes it out of you
because it's-- anyone that does an hour drama, I mean,
it's non-stop.
It's just--
ALAN SEALES: Do you do an episode a week?
Is that a typical schedule?
ERIC MCCORMACK: It's a seven day schedule.
But, you know, we have weekends off.
So yeah.
But it's seven days.
ALAN SEALES: So for how long?
You film for three months?
ERIC MCCORMACK: January to June.
We're finished next week.
ALAN SEALES: Oh, wow, because you're still
filming the finale?
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yeah.
I go back and shoot tomorrow.
ALAN SEALES: Well, sorry.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Now is the time when I'm happy.
No, because we premiere tomorrow night,
and it's so great to get the word out.
As I was saying before, it's a smaller universe now,
but you still-- it puts everything
you have into something like this.
And you just want people to see it, and you want to--
ALAN SEALES: Well, speaking of getting the word out,
you have a Twitter account that you want to plug here?
ERIC MCCORMACK: It's @EricMcCormack.
And yes, please.
I've got 70,000 loyal followers.
And I want more.
ALAN SEALES: Oh, we had a question jump up.
Yeah?
ERIC MCCORMACK: Hello.
AUDIENCE: Hi.
So I'm a really big TV fan.
So I watch a lot of different shows.
And "Will and Grace" is one of the earlier ones
that I watched when I started, about six years ago, just
watching all of the seasons that I could.
And the Emmys have changed a lot since you and your show
have been nominated and won and everything.
And I was wondering what you think about the Emmys today
and how television has kind of changed since you've
kind of done sitcoms, versus now, doing a drama.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Well, you know, Jim Parsons, from, I think
"Big Bang Theory" is the closest thing
to what we used to do that is on television now.
And he's brilliant.
And so when I see that kind of show win,
I go, well, not that much has changed.
But certainly, in terms of drama and what cable is doing,
it's changed entirely.
I mean, I think almost everything nominated
this year was not from a network, you know?
But I think that's OK.
That old the way has to go.
It benefited those of us that were on popular shows
because we got a big number of people.
It was less to choose from.
But those days are gone.
I mean, everyone in this generation, with Google
and everything else, we can choose whatever we want.
ALAN SEALES: On your cell phone?
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yeah, on your cell phone.
So the Emmys are, in and of themselves,
going to become less representational of what's
really out there.
I think nowadays, if I were on a great cable show,
doing great work, and still not nominated,
I wouldn't take it all that personally.
I mean, there's just too much good stuff to choose from.
So I don't know.
That could change.
There's still only ever going to be five nominees.
And they will not necessarily represent
what everyone's watching.
AUDIENCE: They actually recently said
that they might consider doing a best show, which combines
both the best series categories together, because there
have been changes.
What would you think about that?
ERIC MCCORMACK: What do you mean best show?
AUDIENCE: Instead of best comedy series, best drama,
they would combine it into 10.
How do you think that would--
ERIC MCCORMACK: I find that weird.
AUDIENCE: It was a weird little theory that people had,
out there.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yeah.
I find that strange.
ALAN SEALES: Oh, is this the Emmy fan of [INAUDIBLE] rumors?
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yeah, because I think comedy and a drama
are very different animals.
You know?
You know what's very strange?
It was the Golden Globes or something.
"Will and Grace" has the record for the most
Golden Globe nominations with no wins at all.
It's true.
Look it up.
25 nominations, and none of us ever won.
And every year, we'd go get the same table.
And Max, who created the show, every time somebody wouldn't
win, he would grab his glass, and we'd all go, yeah!
And we'd cheer.
And so the cameras would always come to us like we'd won.
But we hadn't.
Some other guy was walking up and taking the thing.
But I think it was at the Globes that the category
for Supporting Actor is for everything.
Best Supporting Actor on any television
show-- drama, miniseries.
So Sean always managed to get nominated [INAUDIBLE],
but always with this pool of, like, opposite Vanessa
Redgrave or something.
It was just madness.
So when you start to make it too small,
the award starts to have less-- I mean, for me,
it meant so much because the big show, for me, growing up,
was "Get Smart" which was--
ALAN SEALES: Right.
ERIC MCCORMACK: I didn't see it's original run,
but I saw reruns in the '70s.
And Don Adams won that award.
You know?
Actually, there's a famous story--
I don't know if it's apocryphal that on Emmy night, you know,
the Emmys have the wings that are really sharp.
And apparently, he and Don Rickles
got so drunk that Don Adams fell asleep on his Emmy
and punctured his throat and was bleeding all over his tux.
I don't know if that's true.
But I love that story.
But just the fact that--
ALAN SEALES: You said it here, and now it's true.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Exactly.
Now it's back.
ALAN SEALES: Now it's on the internet.
ERIC MCCORMACK: But the fact that he won that award,
and then 35 years later, I won that award.
The fact that I shot "Will and Grace" on the same lot
that Seinfeld shot on.
And on our stage, Bob Newhart shot his show.
I love that history.
And the Emmys is part of that.
Thanks for the question.
ALAN SEALES: Great.
So the show premieres tomorrow, June 17th--
ERIC MCCORMACK: Yes, it does.
ALAN SEALES: On TNT which is channel 103, here in New York,
at 10:00 PM.
Website is tntdrama.com/series/perception.
There's a Facebook page, /perceptionTNT.
There's a Twitter handle, #perceptionTNT.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Exactly right.
ALAN SEALES: YouTube, /perceptionTNT.
And there's even GetGlue?
GetGlue.com /tv_show/perception.
ERIC MCCORMACK: That was my laundry list.
Sorry.
ALAN SEALES: Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Glue.
GetGlue.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Right.
ALAN SEALES: Yes.
And then you're Eric McCormick.
ERIC MCCORMACK: I am.
@EricMcCormack.
ALAN SEALES: Yeah. @EricMcCormack.
So thank you.
ERIC MCCORMACK: Thank you, guys, for coming out.
I really appreciate it.
ALAN SEALES: All right.

エリック・マコーマック：「知覚」｜Googleで講演 (Eric McCormack: "Perception" | Talks at Google)