You're cited as being really the founder of modern intermittent fasting. And I've heard people talk about intermittent fasting on this show over and over and over and over again now, but the internet says that it really came from you. I know that intermittent fasting has been happening for thousands of years, but the idea of it as a tool for weight loss, they say it came from you. Because in 2013, 2014, really nobody was talking about it from a medical standpoint.

あなたは現代の断続的断食の創始者として挙げられていますね。この番組で何度も何度も何度も何度も何度も何度も何度も何度も何度も何度も何度も何度も何度も何度も何度も何度も何度も何度も何度も何度も何度も何度も何度も何度も何度も何度も断食について話しているのを聞いたことがあります。断続的な断食は何千年も前から行われていたことは知っていますが、減量のためのツールとしてのアイデアは、あなたから生まれたと言われています。2013年、2014年の時点では、医学的な見地から断食について語る人は誰もいませんでした。

What's happening in the body? Why is it good? Why is it bad? And really I was, for years, sort of this one voice in the wilderness that was saying like, hey, this is a tool for us.

体内で何が起きているのか？なぜ良いのか？なぜ悪いのか？私は何年もの間、この荒野の一人の声のようなものだった。

If you want to lose weight because it's important, then you can just set aside a period of time that you don't eat. At the time, people thought it was extremely bad for you. And I looked through all the literature and I said, well, why is it bad for you? And they had all these reasons. There's all these myths about intermittent fasting and how it's going to cause you to gain weight and be tired and hungry and all these sorts of things. I said, well, no, there's actually a lot of data here over the last 2,000 years that we've used intermittent fasting and they're simply not true. And I can go over a few of those, but that's why there was nobody talking about it at the time and that's where I started to sort of bring it into the sort of public consciousness that this is a tool. That's all it is. Were you attacked for that at the time? Oh, absolutely. I got attacked from all sides. Doctors were coming after me. Dietitians were coming after me. Everybody thought

大事なことだから痩せたいのなら、食べない期間を設ければいい。当時は、食べないことは体に非常に悪いことだと思われていた。私はあらゆる文献に目を通し、なぜ体に悪いのか？すると、いろいろな理由が書いてあった。断食をすると太る、疲れてお腹が空くとか、そういう神話がある。私は、そうではなく、過去2,000年にわたり断食を行ってきた多くのデータがあり、それは事実ではない、と言ったのです。そのうちのいくつかを紹介することもできますが、当時はまだ誰も断食について話していませんでした。それがすべてなんだ。当時、あなたはその

I was going to do so much harm. And the funny part was that as I think back, as I spoke to a lot of colleagues, a lot of colleagues would say to me, you know what? I used to do that when I was in training. We did that all the time. We'd go 24 hours without eating because we're in the OR or we're in the ER or we're busy. So we did that constantly and nothing bad happened. And I remember thinking, you know what? As a doctor, I actually tell people to fast all the time.

私は多くの害を及ぼそうとしていた。面白いのは、多くの同僚と話すうちに、多くの同僚が私にこう言うんだ。私がトレーニングを受けていた頃、よくそうしていたよ。いつもそうだった。手術室やERにいるから、あるいは忙しいからという理由で、24時間食事をとらないこともあった。でも、悪いことは何も起きなかった。それで、こう思ったんだ。医者として、私はいつも人々に絶食するように言っている。

If you have to go for surgery, you need to fast. If you're after surgery, you need to fast. If you do fasting blood work, you need to fast. So why is it that I'm actually telling people to fast all the time and yet for weight loss, you shouldn't fast? That doesn't make any sense.

手術を受けるなら断食が必要です。手術後なら絶食が必要です。絶食血液検査をするなら絶食が必要だ。それなのになぜ、私はいつも断食をするように言っているのに、減量のためには断食をしてはいけないのでしょうか？それじゃ意味がない。

And physiologically, from a body standpoint, it doesn't make any sense.

生理学的にも、身体的にも、意味がない。

One of the things people talked about was, you know, it's going to make you eat more later. It's going to make you more hungry. Your basal metabolic rate is going to go down. This was one of the big myths of intermittent fasting. That's going to cause the so-called starvation mode, right? And this is the idea that your basal metabolic rate will fall so low that when you do start to eat, you're going to gain weight again. So I said, well, let's think about this. You can do a study where you take somebody, say you for example, and you could fast them for four days and measure how many calories they're burning, their basal metabolic rate, on day zero before the fast and measure them four days into the fast and see how many calories you're burning. So on day zero, they say you're burning say 2,000 calories a day. On day four of zero food, you don't eat any food for four days. They measure how much calories you're burning. Your body is burning 2,200 calories. Your basal metabolic rate didn't go down. It went up. Your body is activating itself during fasting, which is fascinating because if you're trying to lose weight, dropping that basal metabolic rate is death. Like if you drop that metabolic rate, it's so hard to lose weight. That's what the calorie restricted diets did. That's what the low fat diets did, the eating all the time did. But when you actually fast, your metabolic rate went up. And we see this in study after study. And the reason is actually basic physiology. It's actually medical physiology like first year medical school stuff. When you don't eat, what happens in your body from a hormone standpoint is that your insulin is going to fall. You're going to allow your body to start using the calories that are in the body. At the same time, other hormones go up.

みんなが話していたことのひとつは、後でもっと食べるようになるということだった。お腹が空きやすくなる。基礎代謝量が下がる。これは断食の大きな神話のひとつでした。いわゆる飢餓モードを引き起こすということですね？基礎代謝量が低下して、食べ始めるとまた太ってしまうという考え方です。そこで私はこう考えた。例えば、ある人を4日間断食させて、断食前の0日目に基礎代謝量を測定し、断食後4日目に消費カロリーを測定する、という研究ができます。つまり、ゼロ日目の消費カロリーは1日2000キロカロリーということになる。食事ゼロの

So the sympathetic tone goes up, which is your fight or flight response.

だから交感神経の緊張が高まり、闘争か逃走かの反応になる。

Your cortisol levels go up because again, it's an activation and your growth hormone goes up because those hormones are going to start telling your body to start pulling calories out.

コルチゾールレベルが上がるのは、やはり活性化するからで、成長ホルモンが上がるのは、これらのホルモンがカロリーを抜くように体に指示を出し始めるからだ。

So you're actually activating yourself. Think about in the wild. If you see a hungry wolf, is that wolf just sort of, you know, all like lethargic? No, he's activated. He's actually more dangerous than any other wolf, as opposed to, say, a lion who just ate. Because when you just eat, you just want to lie there. You know, you want to digest your food. You have no energy.

つまり、実際に自分を活性化させているわけだ。野生のオオカミのことを考えてみよう。お腹を空かせたオオカミを見かけたら、そのオオカミはただ、無気力になっているだろうか？違う。他のどのオオカミよりも危険なのだ。なぜなら、食べたばかりのライオンは、ただ横たわっていたいだけだからだ。食べ物を消化したいんだ。エネルギーがない。

So people say, well, your metabolic rate is going to go down if you fast. No, the truth is actually the opposite. It goes up. Do you fast? Oh, I do that regularly. Yeah. And what does your fast look like? Because I've heard of all these different types of fasting, 36 hours, 72 hours, 14 hours.

だから、断食をすると代謝率が下がる、と言われる。いいえ、実際はその逆です。上がるんです。あなたは断食をしますか？ああ、定期的にやっているよ。ええ。どんな断食をするんですか？36時間、72時間、14時間......いろいろな種類の断食があると聞いたことがある。

There's no rules for fasting. You could do, you know, it could be 16 hours. So 14 hours, remember, is sort of a baseline, 12 to 14 hours, right? That just means you're not eating after dinner.

断食にルールはない。16時間でもいい。14時間というのは基準値のようなもので、12時間から14時間でしょう？つまり、夕食後に食事をしないということです。

That's it. And so if you want to lose weight, that's probably not strong enough to make you lose weight because 12 to 14 hours is sort of just the baseline that people had in the 70s.

それだけです。体重を減らしたいのであれば、12時間から14時間というのは、70年代の人々が持っていた基準値のようなものなので、おそらく体重を減らすには十分ではないでしょう。

So you can go to 16 hours, for example, and you shrink that by either eating breakfast a little later or eating dinner a little earlier. But you can do more than that. You can do, say, a 24-hour fast. You could eat two meals a day, say, eat between 12 and 6. That's a six-hour eating window. Or you could eat once a day, which is like a 24-hour fast. Or you could even go multiple days without eating because, again, your body is smart. Like, your body knows what to do.

例えば、朝食を少し遅く食べたり、夕食を少し早く食べたりすることで、16時間にすることができる。しかし、それ以上のこともできる。例えば、24時間断食をすることもできる。1日2食、たとえば12時から6時の間に食事をする。これは6時間の食事時間だ。あるいは1日1回、24時間断食をすることもできる。あるいは、何日も食べないで過ごすこともできる。身体は何をすべきかを知っているのだ。

If you have all those calories sitting on your body, right, 100,000 calories sitting in body fat and you don't eat for three days, well, you need 6,000 calories. Well, you have 100,000, 200,000. So what's the problem? Take it out of your body fat. Let your body eat your body fat.

10万キロカロリーが体脂肪の中にあって、3日間食べなかったら、6000キロカロリー必要だ。あなたは10万、20万カロリー持っている。何が問題なんだ？体脂肪から摂取すればいい。体脂肪を体に食べさせればいい。

That's what fasting is doing for you. And it's totally natural because that's what it's there for. That body fat is not there for looks. It's there for you as a source, as a store of calories.

それが断食なんだ。そのためにあるのだから、まったく自然なことだ。体脂肪は見た目のためにあるのではありません。体脂肪はカロリーを蓄えるためにあるのです。

So fasting just lets you use that. There's nothing wrong with it.

だから断食はそれを利用するだけだ。何の問題もない。

Leptin is this hormone that essentially brings down my hunger, makes me less hungry.

レプチンは本来、私の空腹感を抑え、空腹感を感じなくするホルモンだ。

Is it therefore possible that people are becoming leptin resistant?

それゆえ、人々がレプチン抵抗性になっている可能性はあるのだろうか？

There is leptin resistance. The question, again, is why? And the way to think about it is it's sort of a sort of balance, right? So insulin, if you give people insulin, like if you think about causes of obesity, what causes people to gain weight? Well, if I give you insulin, you'll gain weight. If I give me insulin, I'll gain weight. So insulin causes weight gain, whereas leptin will cause the opposite. So it's sort of this seesaw. Body fat is nothing more or less than a store of energy, right? And you only store energy when your body tells you. Our entire body runs on hormones, right? Nothing happens without the hormonal system being activated. So insulin is pushing us to gain weight. Leptin is pushing us to lose weight. And what's happening is that one is sort of overcoming the other. Insulin is overcoming the leptin.

レプチン抵抗性がある。繰り返しになるが、問題はその理由だ。それを考えるには、ある種のバランスが必要なんだ。つまり、インスリンを投与すると、肥満の原因について考えるように、何が人を太らせるのでしょうか？インスリンを打てば太る。インスリンを打てば太る。つまり、インスリンは体重増加を引き起こすが、レプチンはその逆を引き起こす。つまり、このシーソーのようなものだ。体脂肪はエネルギーの貯蔵庫に他なりません。体脂肪がエネルギーを蓄えるのは、体からの指令があるときだけです。私たちの身体はすべてホルモンで動いている。ホル

In the last six months, so many of the nutritionists I've spoken to have really impressed upon me that we are fiber deficient. And I'm wondering how that happened.

この半年間、私が話をした栄養士の多くが、私たちは食物繊維が不足していると強く印象づけた。どうしてそうなったのか不思議だ。

Well, I think it was part of the processing thing. So taking out fiber is a great way to make foods more appealing, if you will. So what happens is that if you take flour, for example, and you have a lot of fiber in it, then the digestion is slowed. So what you get is a slower rise. So you take flour and you put a lot of fiber in it. Well, instead of having this huge spike in insulin, which you're going to get, it's a much slower spike in insulin. When you have a huge spike in insulin, it basically overloads your system. And it makes you feel, you know, gives you this big hit. Sort of like if you have like cocaine, for example. You know, it's turned into a very fine powder. Then you snort it. So you get this massive sort of spike. Same thing with, you know, carbohydrates. If you don't have any fiber, you pull all the fiber out by processing. You get this massive sort of unnatural spike in your body. It says, oh, that's great. It tastes great. I really love it. And you get people who are sort of addicted to it because that big spike is then going to release dopamine. And dopamine is the pleasure hormone. So you eat, you know, cookies or whatever highly processed foods, you get this sort of pleasurable response.

まあ、それは加工の一部だと思う。食物繊維を取り除くことは、食品をより魅力的にするための素晴らしい方法なんだ。例えば、小麦粉に食物繊維がたくさん含まれていると、消化が遅くなります。つまり、ゆっくりとした立ち上がりになるのです。小麦粉に食物繊維をたくさん入れたとする。そうすると、インスリンが急上昇する代わりに、インスリンの急上昇が遅くなるのです。インスリンが急上昇すると、基本的に体内が過負荷になる。インスリンが急増すると、基本的に体内が過負荷になる。例えば、コカインを飲んだときのようにね。コカインは非常に細か

And that makes you crave it. If you have a lot of fiber, it acts almost sort of like an antidote to that carbohydrate because you're slowing down that release. What foods are high in fiber?

そうすると炭水化物が欲しくなる。食物繊維をたくさん摂っていれば、炭水化物に対する解毒剤のような働きをします。食物繊維を多く含む食べ物は？

Well, mostly unprocessed foods. So things like beans. And if you're having, if you're eating whole grains, for example, compared to others, then it's going to have a reduction in the speed of absorption. So it's, again, not about the calories necessarily or even necessarily about the carbohydrates because you're still eating the same amount of carbohydrate, but you're slowing down the speed at which is absorbed, which is going to change the instructions that you give your body. If you have a massive spike in glucose, you get this massive dopamine surge, right? And your body's like, you'll love it. Then the next time you're like, okay, give me that refined carbohydrate. What about protein? Because we, we tend to think of protein as something that, you know, is super great for weight loss. Yeah. Protein is probably a sort of inter, it's not bad. I mean, the main thing is cutting down the carbohydrates, but, you know, in the obesity code, I really talk about cutting the processing down because proteins usually don't come as pure protein, right? In nature, you never find like, you know, how you have like whey powder protein or whatever you get. The only way you can do that is by processing the heck out of food to get some kind of pure protein. It doesn't exist in nature. Like it almost doesn't exist. And maybe there's a few examples, but when you eat meat, you think, okay, there's a lot of protein, but that's actually a lot of fat in there too, right? If you eat anything else that has protein, it's rarely all protein, you know, very lean meats like chicken breast and stuff are going to be higher in protein, but there's still a lot of other stuff in there. And it's very rare that somebody will eat just all pure a hundred percent protein. It tends to be hard to eat. Like the fat brings a lot of flavor and so on. So it's a bit of an unnatural way to eat. Sure. If you, if you're to eat a lot of protein, it does spike insulin. So it does have some effect to gain weight, but it's actually a very inefficient macronutrient. That is your, there's three macronutrients.

まあ、ほとんどが加工されていない食品だね。つまり、豆のようなものです。また、例えば全粒穀物を食べている場合、他のものに比べて吸収速度が低下します。つまり、カロリーの問題ではなく、炭水化物の問題でもなく、同じ量の炭水化物を食べているのに、吸収されるスピードが遅くなるということです。ブドウ糖を大量に摂取すると、ドーパミンが大量に分泌されますよね？そうすると、身体はそれが大好きになる。そうすると次は、「よし、精製炭水化物をくれ」となる。タンパク質はどうですか？というのも、私たちは、タンパク質は減量にすごくいいも

There's carbohydrates, there's fat, and there's protein. Your body stores energy or calories in two ways. There's glucose, which is carbohydrate, and it stores it as body fat, which is fat, right? It doesn't, protein is not a way for the body to store energy. So when you're eating a lot of protein, it's very difficult for it to turn it into a storage mechanism. Like, you know, so you eat glucose and you eat fat, you can store glucose and you can store fat. You eat protein, but you don't really store it as a source of energy. So if all foods then increase our insulin levels, I guess the best solution is to fast. Fasting is certainly one way, but just changing the foods to, uh, otherwise, because if you look at the insulin, uh, release in processed foods versus unprocessed foods, there's a huge difference. So if you eat sort of, uh, highly refined foods like white bread, for example, then you're going to have a very different response in insulin compared to sort of, um, uh, a whole, a whole food. So, uh, unprocessed foods in general, your body knows how to handle, like we've been eating them for thousands of years. Um, but certainly anytime you eat, your insulin is going to go up. You're giving your body instructions to store energy. So the solution is to eat less often. What if you do a juice fast? Juice fast, of course, is not a real fast because you're taking a lot of sugars. What do you think of juice fasting? Um, I'm generally, I, I, I think it's less effective than regular fasting and it really depends on how much juice you take. If you take a lot of juice, you could easily get, you know, thousands of calories plus a lot of sugar. If you do it, you know, cucumber juice and stuff that's very low in sugar and kale juice, then it could be very, very healthy for you because there's vitamins and stuff there. So it all depends on how it's done. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last last guest leaves a question for the next guest without knowing who they're leaving it for. And the question that's been left for you is what is your greatest gift to the world? I think if, if, if, you know, I suppose it's sounds very arrogant. Um, but I really hope that my, my work helps people sort of sort of reverse the type two diabetes. Cause that is really sort of one of the most close things that I deal with because I deal with it professionally sort of every day.

炭水化物、脂肪、そしてタンパク質だ。身体は2つの方法でエネルギーやカロリーを蓄えます。炭水化物であるブドウ糖と、脂肪である体脂肪だ。タンパク質はエネルギーを蓄える方法ではない。だから、タンパク質をたくさん食べても、それを貯蔵メカニズムに変えるのは難しいんだ。例えば、ブドウ糖を食べたり脂肪を食べたりすると、ブドウ糖を貯蔵したり脂肪を貯蔵したりできる。タンパク質を食べても、エネルギー源として蓄えることはできない。だから、もしすべての食べ物がインスリンレベルを上げるのであれば、最善の解決策は断食だと思う。加工食

Um, and helps break the stigma of not just the stigma, but the understanding like, you know, stimulates more thinking about weight loss, how to lose weight more than calories and calories. I mean, it's so sort of pie in the sky because, you know, it's, there's a whole, you know, worldwide sort of institutionalized fossilized almost, you know, thinking around calories, it's all about calories, that sort of thing. So to, for me to upset, it seems ridiculous, but I hope that I can at least start that conversation to say, Hey, let's think about these things. Let's think about the hormones. Let's think about reversing type two diabetes. Let's think about all getting together and helping each other to become so much healthier, not through drugs and not through more surgery and not with, you know, weird and new things that you've never heard of, but with the tried and the true sort of oldest thinking that has been there. Right. It's, it's, to me, it's, I sometimes think about this and I get crazy. I like, why do I think I can even do that? Right. It's just ridiculous. It's so much hubris, but you know, I, I can only try. Right. Because I see in my own practice, how much good it's done for some people. So it drives me to say, I need to bring it to more people. I need to, to, to explain it to them. If they want to be helped, they will be helped. But if they don't want to, I'm not trying to force myself to do anything, but you know, that's what I hope my greatest gift will be. But at the same time, I sort of think that's just, you know, you're crazy. If you can think you can do that, but. Well, it's the crazy ones that change the world, Dr. Jason.

そして、単に汚名をそそぐだけでなく、カロリーやカロリー以上に、減量や減量方法について考えるきっかけを与えてくれるんだ。というのも、カロリーにまつわる考え方は、世界的に制度化された化石的なもので、カロリーがすべて、みたいなところがあるんだ。だから、私が動揺するのは馬鹿げているように思えるけど、少なくとも、こういうことについて考えようじゃないかという会話を始めることができればと思う。ホルモンについて考えよう。2型糖尿病の回復について考えよう。薬を使うのでもなく、手術を増やすのでもなく、聞いたこともないような奇

It's the crazy ones that change the world. And even with, you know, your conversation around intermittent fasting has changed many, many lives that you'll never get to meet. I imagine many, many millions, many, many millions, because it's even brought the conversation to this show before you entered the room many, many months and months and months. And almost a year ago, people started talking on the show about intermittent fasting and that's in many respects due to the work that you've done to further that conversation. And now your work continues to highlight the fact that type two diabetes is a reversible disease in many cases.

世界を変えるのは、クレイジーな人たちなんだ。断続的な断食にまつわるあなたの会話は、あなたが決して会うことのできない多くの人生を変えた。何百万人、何千万人、何千万人、何千万人、何千万人、何千万人、何千万人、何千万人、何千万人、何千万人、何千万人、何千万人、何千万人、何千万人、何千万人。ほぼ1年前、断続的な断食について人々がこの番組で話し始めましたが、それは多くの点で、あなたがこの会話をさらに深めるためにしてきた仕事によるものです。そして今、あなたの仕事は、2型糖尿病は多くの場合、可逆的な病気であるという事実

And I think, again, that's going to save, you know, tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions of lives over the coming decades and years. So thank you for what you do, Dr. Jason. It's a huge honor to get to sit with you today. And I feel wiser and more enlightened and like someone has turned the lights on in a certain part of my knowledge because of this conversation. So I thank you for that tremendously. Thank you so much. It's been great.

そうすれば、今後何十年もの間に、何億人とは言わないまでも、何千万人もの命を救うことができるだろう。ジェイソン博士、ありがとうございます。今日、あなたとご一緒できたことを大変光栄に思います。そして、この会話のおかげで、私はより賢くなり、より啓発され、誰かが私の知識のある部分に明かりを灯してくれたような気がします。とても感謝しています。本当にありがとう。素晴らしかった。

If you love the Driver CEO brand and you watch this channel, please do me a huge favor, become part of the 15% of the viewers on this channel that have hit the subscribe button.

もしあなたがドライバーCEOのブランドを愛し、このチャンネルを見ているのなら、どうか私に大きなお願いをして、このチャンネルの視聴者のうち15％のチャンネル登録ボタンを押してくれた人の一部になってください。

It helps us tremendously. And the bigger the channel gets, the bigger the guests.

すごく助かるよ。チャンネルが大きくなればなるほど、ゲストも増える。