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  • - Hello, my name is Margaret Atwood.

  • And it's my very great pleasure to be talking today

  • to the one and only, Jane Goodall.

  • Hello, Jane.

  • - Well, hello, Margaret. I'm Jane.

  • And you are the one and only Margaret as well.

  • So we're both talking to one and only.

  • (Both laughs)

  • (orchestral music)

  • - So when I'm writing a novel,

  • I always decide what year the person is born.

  • And then I know what was happening to them

  • when they were 10 and what was happening in the world,

  • and when they were 20, and when they were 30.

  • So you were born in 1934.

  • And that means in The Depression.

  • And then, when you were six or five-

  • - Five.

  • - along came World War II.

  • Where were you living then?

  • - Just before the war, like six months before,

  • my father took a house in Le Touquet in France

  • 'cause he wanted and my sister to grow up speaking French.

  • For some odd reason, he didn't speak French.

  • I was there with my sister, mom, and her friend,

  • and two kids.

  • And then learning French, haha, we'd been there three months

  • and war broke out and we had to leave.

  • So we went to my father's mother's farm for three months

  • and then came where I'm speaking from now,

  • my grandmother's house, which is now a family house.

  • Well, I was born apparently,

  • loving to watch anything that crept, crawled, flew, ran.

  • We had a dog, we had a cat.

  • And then as soon as we got here to Barmouth,

  • I spent all my time watching animals in the garden

  • on the cliffs above the sea.

  • Before we go on with me, it's your turn now.

  • You were born in what-

  • - Yes. I was born in '39.

  • So two months after war broke out.

  • So in fact my whole early childhood was spent

  • in that period.

  • And my childhood was similar to yours

  • in the animal watching department.

  • Although possibly more so

  • because we are in the Quebec, North Woods.

  • And did a lot of frog watching

  • and turning over of logs in case there might be a neut

  • or a snake.

  • And my dad was a forest entomologist.

  • So in an early conservation,

  • it's like very early,

  • the period when people thought you were kind of lunatic

  • if you were interested in those things.

  • So I sort of grew up that way.

  • But I don't imagine that your family was saying,

  • "Jane we want you to grow up and go off

  • and study temperatures.

  • - No, no, no. Not (indistinct).

  • My childhood, you know,

  • the other thing apart from being outside with nature,

  • books, books, books, no television.

  • Must have been the same for you, really?

  • It was. Yes.

  • - So books, books, books.

  • And I was only about 10 when my grandmother...

  • And I was only about 10 when my grandmother...

  • You know, in those days, if you saved up coupons,

  • I think this was from packets of cereal.

  • - You will get something free.

  • Now you save it up and you get half price off,

  • but you still have to pay.

  • But in those days you didn't have to pay.

  • And she got me this book, The Miracle of Life,

  • which is just being reprinted.

  • It's not for children at all.

  • It goes right through evolution and Darwin

  • and ends up with the human anatomy and medicine.

  • But I spent...

  • I mean, it was one of my most favorite, favorite books

  • along, of course, with a fiction,

  • which was Tarzan Dr. Dolittle spec.

  • (Margaret laughs)

  • - So I was 10 when I fell in love with Tarzan.

  • Was very jealous 'cause he married the wrong Jane.

  • Well, he did.

  • I'm quite sure he did.

  • Anyway, I knew there wasn't a Tarzan,

  • but that was when my dream began.

  • Go to Africa, live with wild of animals

  • and write books about them

  • - Which brings us to the next thing

  • that people always ask about about.

  • I bet they ask you too.

  • And that's the hope word.

  • - The hope word.

  • - The hope word. Where do you get hope?

  • - I think you should start that one off.

  • - Well, okay.

  • So my answer usually is why not.

  • (both laughs)

  • So if you're not hopeful,

  • things are going to get less hopeful.

  • And if you are hopeful, that may generate more hope,

  • and actually inspire people to take action.

  • Because if you don't have any hope,

  • then there's no use doing anything.

  • - I quite agree.

  • - So people who say we're doomed,

  • I'm just not interested in that.

  • It doesn't generate any sort of positive activity.

  • - I see.

  • Hope is something tied into action.

  • And so I see like we're in a very dark tunnel right now.

  • There's no question.

  • We've got climate change, we've got loss of biodiversity,

  • we've got the pandemic, we've got racial discrimination,

  • you know, we've got all these problems.

  • And so that's the dark tunnel.

  • And right at the end is a little spec of light.

  • And we don't just sit at the end of the tunnel

  • and hope that light will come.

  • - I think this is gonna be not possible to answer

  • but I'm gonna give it a crack.

  • Where have you found the most meaning in your life?

  • - Well, the most rewarding has been to see the effect

  • that I can have as a gift given of communication

  • on audiences.

  • It's very rewarding when 5,000 or 10,000 people

  • jump to their feet and applaud. And you know,

  • I miss that a lot being grounded in the pandemic.

  • And so I'm having to give virtual lectures.

  • So I'm looking at this little green spec

  • on top of the laptop and you know,

  • you don't get any feedback.

  • You say something funny, nobody laughs,

  • you say something sad, nobody has hands up to their eyes.

  • And yet if I don't put the same energy and emotion

  • and enthusiasm into those talks,

  • there's no point doing them.

  • It was incredibly rewarding

  • when the chimpanzees lost their fear of me

  • after four months.

  • A lot of things with animals, you know

  • when you overcome the fear of an animal.

  • I mean, I have lunch every day under my favorite beach tree

  • and a little robin comes along and he'll now sit on my hand.

  • - My turn. Well, I can't...

  • I find it a very difficult question to answer

  • because a lot of things have been rewarding,

  • but I don't think that's why you do them.

  • I don't think you do them necessarily,

  • so you will get rewarded.

  • I think you do them

  • because you think that that's what you should do.

  • And I'm sure it's the same for you.

  • (indistinct)

  • And some of the things that we have done

  • have been not rewarding

  • because people did not at first receive them well,

  • but we did them anyway.

  • The conversations around feminism,

  • if we accept it as the basic premise

  • that women are human beings and not to have equal rights,

  • that is an ongoing effort, but it has changed a lot.

  • - Oh, so much.

  • '40s actually, women were very active,

  • but it's the usual thing with revolutions and wars,

  • you know.

  • Women are very instrumental, very helpful,

  • and then they're told, that's enough of you.

  • We're finished with that, you know.

  • Back to the bungalow

  • and there's a washing machine to make you feel happier.

  • Were you told you couldn't do things

  • because you were female?

  • - Yeah, I was, of course.

  • When I wanted to go and live with wild animals,

  • everybody laughed at me.

  • But you see, I had this amazing mother.

  • - Oh yeah. So did I have one.

  • - Yeah. She said, "If you really want to do this,

  • you're going to have to work very hard

  • and take advantage of every opportunity.

  • And if you don't give up, maybe you find a way."

  • 'Cause for me, it wasn't just being a girl,

  • it was 'cause we didn't have money.

  • - Right.

  • - The war was raging when I thought,

  • Africa was still the dark continent.

  • We didn't know much about it.

  • It was full of danger.

  • But you know, having this supportive mother

  • and a wonderful family.

  • And you know, so I wasn't in the midst of it,

  • I was stuck away in Gambia and not thinking about feminism.

  • I just missed it all together.

  • And it didn't impinge on me.

  • The scientists were kind of scornful at first

  • of the findings of this young girl.

  • And though I only got credit because the geographic came in

  • and they only came in with money because I had nice legs.

  • And if that was said now, you know, it would be shocking.

  • - Very shocking.

  • But back then, I thought,

  • well, if geographic came in because of my legs,

  • then thank you legs.

  • I mean, you know, I don't care.

  • I just want to study the tombs.

  • And I didn't really care what people said.

  • I mean, it's true.

  • - Yes. Well, the main thing about your legs

  • is that they made it able for you to walk around a lot.

  • - Yeah. Up and down the hills. Yep.

  • And you know, I've watched...

  • Did you see that film, Jane, that the geographic just made?

  • - No, I haven't seen that, but I will.

  • - If you see it, you'll see my legs and they're not bad.

  • (both laughs)

  • - So you've been very interested in how great a Tombaugh

  • and that movement.

  • Extinction, rebellion, but also your roots and shoots.

  • And that has been a huge success.

  • - We have 65 countries and growing.

  • - Yeah. It's wonderful.

  • - Even during the pandemic,

  • we've had new Jane Goodall institutes,

  • but, of course, Roots and Shoots is part of all of them,

  • all 24.

  • One new one in India,

  • with Roots and Shoots rushing across India,

  • and the other one in Turkey.

  • - Wow. Turkey? - Turkey.

  • - And how is that going?

  • - Super well.

  • - Wow.

  • - And we're all over China.

  • We've got about 2,000 groups in China still.

  • - And the government hasn't shut it down.

  • - No. They love it.

  • And they keep asking me for stories to go on.

  • It's their equivalent of Facebook.

  • - Yes.

  • And they're very keen on environment within China now.

  • Really.

  • - Well, that would be huge if they could turn around

  • and cut their emissions.

  • - Yep.

  • So you probably know

  • about an online thing called Project Drawdown.

  • Which tells you...

  • It has these statistics, it's got the cost,

  • it's got the benefits for all of the things

  • that we are doing now.

  • But if we did them more,

  • would cause a net drawdown of carbon

  • from the atmosphere by 2050.

  • So I'm very keen on them as well.

  • - Margaret, I understand

  • that your new book, Burning Questions,

  • is coming out next month.

  • Well, what is it about?

  • - Oh, it's a collection of essays from 2004 to roughly now.

  • Let's say 2021.

  • And it's the third such collection.

  • There are two earlier ones.

  • So it's the third in the set.

  • And it's just stuff that I was writing during those years

  • which were pretty tumultuous years.

  • We had the big financial meltdown.

  • It was right after 9/11, big financial meltdown.

  • It was when I was publishing the Mad Adam Series,

  • which is on topic for what we've just been talking about.

  • And then it goes on

  • through the election of the person

  • whose name shall not be mentioned,

  • and other kinds of social changes

  • and uproars continuing on to about now.

  • But of course,

  • environmental questions were front and center for me

  • during those years.

  • 'Cause we went through a big pile of paper

  • to get these essays out and decide which ones to put in,

  • I noticed myself making quite a few speeches about this

  • and telling people that if they kill the oceans,

  • they'll stop breathing.

  • That's my short form of why they should do something.

  • - Yeah.

  • - Because people usually, in general,

  • are slow to action until it's impacting them.

  • - Well, that's it.

  • That's why I kept saying, you know,

  • awful though it is the fact that the hurricanes

  • and the flooding

  • and the fires are hitting the US and Europe, you know.

  • Suddenly, it's not just them over there.

  • It's not Bangladesh and India, it's hurting us too

  • Also I give people the benefit of the doubt.

  • Sometimes what they're doing is literally through ignorance.

  • They don't know.

  • They haven't had the right education

  • or nobody's pointed it out to them in a positive way.

  • And it's amazing how people do change.

  • - We are told that we live in an age of, you know, bubbles.

  • And that people in this bubble will never listen to people

  • in that bubble.

  • So part of your mission, I take it,

  • is to who open up communications between the bubbles.

  • - Yeah.

  • Oh, it is.

  • They're now calling them silos for some reason.

  • - Are they calling them silos?

  • (both laughs)

  • Guess they don't know what goes on in a real silo.

  • - No, I think not.

  • - Don't fall into one.

  • - No, you don't want to fall into one.

  • - What was the compelling,

  • convincing thing you have said to someone

  • who is indifferent to or skeptical of your mission?

  • - The first thing I try to do is to find some little thing

  • that links us.

  • Like maybe you both love dogs.

  • Maybe, I don't know, something if it's possible.

  • And so make that connection.

  • Take time to listen.

  • My mother taught me that.

  • She said, "If somebody you disagree with confronts you,

  • listen to what they say because maybe they've got some ideas

  • that never occurred to you."

  • - And I think that has to happen.

  • People have to find a common ground.

  • - Yeah.

  • And it's very hard because there are huge vested interests

  • that don't want that to happen.

  • - Yep.

  • However, you know,

  • the sci-fi writers would be on this like a shot.

  • So the very rich person gets an island

  • and they put in almond cons,

  • and they're gonna isolate there.

  • And while everybody else goes down the shoot...

  • But you have to have people to run these things.

  • So you're gonna have to have a staff.

  • And at the point at which the contents of your freezer

  • is more interesting to those people than you are -

  • (both laughs)

  • - Yeah. Right.

  • - that'll be the end of that.

  • - Yeah.

  • And I think some people who were thinking

  • in terms of being a billionaire on an island,

  • that has already occurred to them

  • that if they don't actually do something about the planet,

  • they're just as doomed as everybody else.

  • - Well, of course.

  • And besides,

  • unless the island is frightfully rich and fertile, you know,

  • where is their food going to come from?

  • - Exactly. Where is it going to come from?

  • And as for shooting yourself off to Mars,

  • good luck with that.

  • (both laughs)

  • So what are you gonna do next?

  • What's your next big thing?

  • - What do you mean? Other than dying?

  • - You know, I say that to people.

  • I say, "This is gonna be your problem

  • 'cause I'm gonna be dead."

  • And they say, "No, you're not."

  • And I say, "Yes, I am."

  • They say, "No, you're not."

  • I say, "Yes I am."

  • I was a seed investor

  • in a new method of disposing of your corpse.

  • It's very green Jane.

  • - Okay.

  • - So we know about green burial,

  • but this one is called recompose.

  • And you get turned into compost quite rapidly.

  • Started in Seattle.

  • They called it originally the Seattle Death Project.

  • But I think that was a name

  • that was somewhat off putting to people.

  • - To be regeneration.

  • - They floraled it up a lot.

  • It's now very floral.

  • And it is not...

  • It's hardly impactful at all on the carbon balance.

  • Plus, so good for your rose bushes.

  • (both laughs)

  • So this is something we have to think about.

  • One of my fans wrote me a letter quite some time ago

  • and said, "I'd like to make you a gift.

  • And my gift to you is going to be a pink,

  • organic, handcrafted, silk shroud."

  • And I said, "Maybe not just yet."

  • So maybe not just yet, Jane.

  • So what are you gonna do meantime?

  • - Well, I'm carrying on with what I'm doing

  • and when I can, I'll...

  • I mean, I miss my friends. Really, I do.

  • And they miss me.

  • I haven't seen my grandchildren

  • who are in Tanzania for two years.

  • Never been back to Gambia to see the staff there.

  • - Oh dear.

  • - You know, I need to visit the JGI centers.

  • And I know it means going on an airplane

  • but airplanes will fly.

  • I would never have a private jet,

  • but, you know, if there's a commercial airline flying there.

  • Haven't talked about the rights of animals.

  • These ain't human beings, we need to ban factory farming.

  • We need to ban unsustainable commercial fishing.

  • There's an awful lot we need to change.

  • - Yes. I think we need more marine parks.

  • - Yep.

  • - A lot more marine parks because they really work.

  • - Yeah, you're into marine parks and I'm into forests.

  • They're the two lungs of the world.

  • - Yeah. Well, I'm into forest too

  • and you're into marine parks too.

  • - Yeah. Of course.

  • - We're both into both.

  • - Both into both.

  • - Oh, that's very true.

  • And organic soil, of course.

  • A huge carbon sink.

  • - We're killing soil with pesticides and herbicides

  • and artificial.

  • I mean, it's terrible.

  • We literally are losing our soil.

  • And then we-

  • - So that's the real reason for buying organic.

  • It's not that it's going to kill you not to,

  • it's that we need to regenerate the organic soil

  • because it holds carbon and dead soil doesn't.

  • - Regenerative farming is the way to go and permaculture.

  • - I'm with you, Jane.

  • - Yep.

  • Let us just talk about

  • when we think the pandemic is gonna be over.

  • - Oh, we can't. Can we?

  • We don't know what Omicron's going to do.

  • - Well, let us pretend that Darwin would say

  • that viruses being what they are,

  • and evolution being what it is,

  • it's gonna take the path that is most favorable to itself.

  • - Yeah.

  • And that would be spreading faster but being less lethal.

  • - Right.

  • - So that seems to be what it's doing.

  • And there are some people

  • that think that the 1919 influenza epidemic turned

  • into the flu we have now,

  • which is not nearly as lethal.

  • - Right.

  • Yeah. So maybe it will become something like that.

  • And we'll just get an annual shot.

  • What do you think?

  • - I don't know.

  • (chuckles)

  • Continually talking to my virus experts about it

  • and they don't know either.

  • - They don't know?

  • Nobody quotes No.

  • So this is gonna be a guess rather than a No.

  • - Well, I mean, there's so many problems.

  • Like you get you get the very mild dose of COVID-19,

  • say Delta,

  • and you're not very sick and you don't go to hospital,

  • but you are very prone to long COVID.

  • And one of the side effects of that

  • is irreversible brain damage, which is why-

  • - Really? - Yes.

  • - Well that's horrible.

  • - Yes, it is horrible.

  • That's why I'm being extra careful

  • because I do need my brain

  • - Silly old you.

  • (both laughs)

  • - I need mine, you need yours, our teams need theirs.

  • - Yeah they do.

  • - But anyway, I think we should end

  • on a very nice positive note.

  • So in your work with discrimination,

  • I mean, with gender equality,

  • there's a tribe in one of the Latin American countries.

  • And I was talking to the chief,

  • and he said,

  • "Our tribe is like an eagle,

  • and one wing is male, the other wing is female.

  • And only when the wings are equal, will our tribe fly high.

  • - That is a wonderful thought.

  • I will tell that too Equality Now,

  • which works around the world

  • on laws having to do with gender.

  • - Yeah.

  • - So they will be happy to hear that.

  • - Yeah. It's a lovely one.

  • - And it's a good saying. Wonderful.

  • - Well, it's been great meeting you and talking to you

  • and I look forward to seeing your latest book.

  • - I'm gonna go look up your legs right away.

  • (both laughs)

- Hello, my name is Margaret Atwood.

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Jane Goodall & Margaret Atwood On Feminism, Climate Change, Racial Injustice | Harper’s BAZAAR

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    Summer に公開 2022 年 02 月 02 日
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