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  • [ Applause ]

  • >> Thank you.

  • Thank you so much.

  • What a pleasure to be back in Australia

  • to be back at the Opera House.

  • Thank you so much for coming out tonight.

  • As Ann's just said, I've written a novel, but I don't want

  • to talk particularly specifically about the novel.

  • Please buy it after if you feel inclined.

  • But what I really want to do is talk about some

  • of the ideas behind the novel.

  • And some of these people say to me you know,

  • 'why did you even bother to write a novel?

  • I thought you were supposed to be a nonfiction writer.

  • And the reason I wrote a novel is that I believe that many

  • of our ideas on love come from reading novels.

  • Also, songs, films, etcetera.

  • But essentially we are very shaped

  • by the love narratives that we read.

  • And this could seem a little cruel.

  • We tend to think that we love spontaneously

  • that we're not influenced by what we read and by what we see,

  • but I think that we are.

  • We love within a very historical social context.

  • It's that lovely biting aphorism from La Rochefoucauld he says

  • "There are some people who would never have fallen in love

  • if they hadn't heard there was such a thing."

  • That's a little extreme, but you get the idea that really

  • when we love we're taking a lot of our cues

  • from the outside world.

  • We honour certain feelings that we experience

  • because other people are telling us to honour them.

  • We suppress other feelings because people have told us not

  • to pay them particular attention.

  • Now we are nowadays firmly in a very distinctive era

  • in the history of love.

  • We are living in the era of Romanticism.

  • Romanticism is an intellectual movement

  • that began the swallows, studies,

  • garrets of European poets, novelists,

  • writers in the middle end of the 18th century and nowadays even

  • if you've never heard of a single romantic poet or novelist

  • from any garret in old Europe

  • and you're just having your love life here

  • in Sydney you are influenced.

  • Because we all are by romanticism.

  • So whether you don't necessarily know about it, or feel it,

  • or touch it, it is all around us.

  • In the ether.

  • We are living, ladies and gentleman

  • in the era of Romanticism.

  • Now what does Romanticism tell us about love.

  • It has a very distinctive set of arguments

  • about what love is like, what we should expect from love

  • and how relationships should go.

  • And let me run you through a few romantic assumptions.

  • I think first, and most central assumption is that for all of us

  • out there, there is most definitely a soul mate.

  • We may not have met them already, we may be swiping left,

  • right furiously in order to try and locate them.

  • They exist.

  • And eventually if we keep going hard enough we will find them.

  • And when we find them our soul will fuse with theirs.

  • All areas that have previously been confused

  • and lonely will be redeemed.

  • We will no longer feel ourselves worthless, agonising,

  • melancholic for the mysteries

  • of existence we have found a true friend

  • and loneliness will be banished.

  • This, ladies and gentleman, is the person waiting

  • for us somewhere out there.

  • The soul mate.

  • How are we going to find this person?

  • Well, big question.

  • The dominant answer of romanticism is by instinct.

  • You know for most of history the way that people were matched

  • up was by the elders of the community, by parents,

  • by other people than the couple themselves.

  • It was what was known as a marriage of reason.

  • And there were reasonable criteria.

  • So-called reasonable criteria, which is maybe

  • that you had a goat and they had a sheep.

  • Or you had a plot of land and they had an adjoining part

  • of land or whatever it was.

  • And it was on that basis

  • that the so-called domestic marriages were made.

  • And that was the way in which people married, have married

  • for thousands of years, really since the beginning of time.

  • But along comes Romanticism and says no, we're going to marry

  • in a different way, we're going to marry by instinct.

  • And the instinct is

  • that somewhere along the line you will feel a special feeling.

  • A very, very special feeling inside.

  • Kind of excitement.

  • And you don't know when it will strike you.

  • Maybe you're at the bar, maybe you're at the swimming pool.

  • Maybe you're just waiting in line for something,

  • you'll spot somebody and without necessarily knowing too much

  • about them de the romantics will quack in on it happening

  • without knowing anything about them other

  • than simply seeing their face.

  • You will know that's your soulmate.

  • And so, that special feeling has become venerated.

  • And whoever, first of all you don't question

  • that special feeling so, you know if you said

  • to your parents, and they go, all right tell me about your,

  • you just say I've had that special feeling

  • and everyone just, you know the waters part

  • and the couple moves forward

  • because there's been that special feeling.

  • So once the special feeling has been announced,

  • you raise the flag, the special feeling has happened

  • and that's terrific.

  • Of course if you don't feel

  • that special feeling it's a bit embarrassing.

  • Is there something wrong with me, etcetera, so you may start

  • to fake the special feeling, kind of like someone can fake

  • that you've had this romantic special feeling.

  • And so Romanticism is very into the notion of the crush,

  • and the immediate sensation of certainty

  • that you have met someone very special.

  • Romanticism goes hand and hand with the developments

  • of the railways in Europe in the 19th century.

  • And an awful lot of these meetings happened

  • on trains in fiction.

  • In Russian fiction alone,

  • fiction alone you could build a library of stories

  • in which the hero and heroine meet on a train

  • and without much knowledge, let's say just the sight maybe

  • of an ankle, an elbow, curvature of a cheek,

  • you will know that's a soulmate and that's how it begins.

  • So that's how you're going to find your life partner.

  • The romantics are very keen on the notion

  • of happily ever after.

  • That love is not just a passing phase, it is forever.

  • Until death do us part.

  • Strikingly many of the romantics die quite young [laughter].

  • And so often the story begins, couple falls madly in love

  • and then [coughing], somebody got a little cough

  • and then tuberculosis and [coughing]

  • and it's you know it's a beautiful love story

  • but it does end after a few months.

  • But nevertheless it's forever in a sense.

  • And Romanticism is also very keen on suicide,

  • ending things dramatically.

  • So death has a curious relationship with love

  • in the romantic point of view.

  • The other essential thing about the romantics is

  • that generally no one really has a job.

  • None of the romantics really have jobs.

  • So they can devote a lot of time to love.

  • And they're spending a lot of time just in each other's arms,

  • and also going for walks.

  • Nature is incredibly important for the romantics.

  • Going out into nature for long, long walks,

  • very particular places.

  • Waterfalls, very romantic place.

  • Also places where the ocean meets the land, dramatic cliffs,

  • pounding of seas,

  • very quintessentially romantic places.

  • Romantic times of day.

  • Dusk is a quintessentially romantic time.

  • Especially when you know there are a layer of clouds,

  • and the underside of the clouds are lit up by the shafts

  • of the dying sun turning the sky a purple-pink hew,

  • very romantic sort of moment.

  • A moment to enforce love through the help of nature.

  • The romantics have a very distinctive take on sex.

  • People have obviously been having sex for all

  • of human history and there's been some love.

  • But what the romantics do is a remarkable fusion

  • of love and sex.

  • They basically consecrate sex as the summit of love

  • and the ultimate expression of love.

  • So far from being merely a mechanical action,

  • it becomes this most sincere expression of your feelings

  • for another person, almost define expression

  • of tenderness for another person.

  • Very beautiful.

  • It has a slight drawback, which is that it turns adultery

  • into a tragedy, a catastrophe, because if you believe,

  • as the romantics do that sex is the crowning expression of love,

  • then any interest outside

  • of the couple will be catastrophic in nature.

  • And that's why almost every great novel of the 19th century

  • in Europe is about adultery, in one form or another.

  • Starting with Flaubert's "Madame Bovary", moving on to Tolstoy's

  • " Anna Karenina" and on, and on.

  • People have been having adultery for all of human history.

  • It's been happening all the time,

  • but what's new is the weight that's put on it.

  • And as I say it is a violation of everything

  • that the romantics believe that love is.

  • Now, I should say that many

  • of these romantic ideas are very beautiful.

  • They're very exciting and we all live through them

  • and it would be naive to someway dismiss them

  • as irrelevant to the way we live.

  • They are everywhere and they are the centre

  • of how we approach love.

  • But I also want to insist

  • that Romanticism has been a catastrophe for our capacity

  • to have good long-term relationships.

  • And if we want to have a chance of succeeding at love,

  • we will have to be disloyal to many of the romantic emotions

  • that got us into relationships in the first place.

  • Romanticism has spelt trouble for our capacity to endure

  • and thrive in long-term relationships.

  • Why do I say that?

  • Well let me run you through a few of the areas that I believe

  • that Romanticism has spelt difficulty

  • for us in relationships.

  • So Romanticism replaced an earlier vision of human nature,

  • which tended to stress how fragile,

  • broken and very sinful we all were.

  • An old Christian idea.

  • And Romanticism comes along and dismisses this attitude

  • as hopelessly pessimistic and insists instead on the purity

  • and good nature of every human being.

  • For the romantics, the romantics place an awful lot

  • of emphasis on children.

  • And children, for the romantics are always good,

  • they're always sweet.

  • It begins with Jean-Jacques Rousseau

  • in the mid-18th century.

  • The child is the purest expression of human kind

  • and the only thing that makes a child bad is societies.

  • Only society corrupts children.

  • But basically it's a sign that we are born good.

  • And the older view, which was associated

  • with Christian theologians like St. Augustine,

  • which stressed the fundamental sinfulness.

  • You know, St. Augustine argued that all of us bear

  • within us the original sin of Adam and therefore all of us.

  • It's good to speak like this at a pulpit

  • to an audience, but [laughter].

  • But all of us, all of us are sinners, or potential sinners,

  • and therefore need to be at the mercy of others

  • and of the divine, in order, I'm a secular Jew, but the divine,

  • in order to endure life.

  • Now Romanticism does away with this and says to us that all

  • of us are angelic by nature.

  • The interesting thing is that Romanticism coincides

  • with the decline in organised religion.

  • So just as religion is declining Romanticism rises,

  • and it's in many ways a replacement,

  • a secular alternative.

  • So when we get together in love.

  • You know what's fascinating, is the beginning of the use

  • of the word angel to refer not to those winged creates

  • up in the sky, but to refer to other human beings.

  • And there's a marked increase of this in the age of Romanticism.

  • And nowadays of course, many

  • of us will cheerfully call our partner angel.

  • So we are all of us, in a sense, and through the lens

  • of Romanticism, good people,

  • our wings have been temporarily put aside,

  • but essentially we're pretty perfect people not particularly

  • tainted by original sin.

  • Now, I think this is highly troubling for relationships.

  • because it leads that absolute problematic dynamic

  • with any relationship which is self-righteousness.

  • If you think that you're quite perfect,

  • and that your partner is quite perfect too.

  • That's trouble anyway.

  • And if you start a relationship,

  • you'll soon start hitting upon things which will lead you

  • to think that actually maybe they're not that perfect.

  • Now what do you do with that feeling, if you're operating

  • against an ideology that says that everyone,

  • and that your partner particularly is by nature good.

  • Very unhelpful backdrop in which

  • to negotiate the troubles of relationships.

  • It's far better, I believe to insist that all of us are

  • in various ways deeply, and I don't mean this in any

  • as an insult, deeply crazy [laughter].

  • I may not know exactly how you're crazy,

  • I can tell you later how I'm crazy.

  • I won't, well I might.

  • But basically all of us, and none of us get

  • through the gauntlet of early childhood, adolescence,

  • etcetera, with our sanity entirely intact.

  • We are all of us warped,

  • distorted in very distinctive ways.

  • It may take us 50 years to work

  • out exactly how we're distorted, but we are distorted.

  • And this is a fundamental piece of knowledge,

  • which we should be taking with us into relationships

  • with a big warning sign over us.

  • Now why are we so unable to conceive of ourselves as damaged

  • and crazy and therefore so [inaudible] self-righteousness.

  • Well, part of the problem is that all

  • of us have very low levels of self-knowledge.

  • And self-knowledge is really, really hard to come by.

  • Partly because there's almost a conspiracy of silence around us.

  • People don't quite tell us what they think of us.

  • And therefore we can go through live

  • where the average person who's met us

  • for 20 minutes has a deeper insight into many of our flaws

  • than we might achieve over a lifetime [laughter].

  • Why don't people tell us this?

  • Well there's really no motive for them

  • to tell us this at many stages.

  • Our parents are not going

  • to tell us certain things that they know.

  • They can see things about us, but they're not going

  • to tell us, because they're very kind, they wish us well.

  • It's not really their business they're not going to go into it

  • and maybe they're blinded by their own affection for us.

  • There's our friends, well of course our friends are not going

  • to tell us certain things about our characters,

  • the ways in which we're difficult in particular,

  • because all they really want from us is a person

  • to evening out [laughter].

  • They just, they don't care.

  • You don't.

  • You really have to care about someone to be bothered to go

  • into all that stuff about their true character.

  • And our friends, certainly, you know they can't be bothered.

  • They don't like us enough [laughter].

  • So it leaves then, that other category, our exes.

  • Well, our exes you could expect

  • that they will somewhere along the lines have told us,

  • but the thing on the whole it's not really worth their

  • while either.

  • And so they tend to take their leave by saying things

  • like they need to spend more time on their own,

  • they need to develop their character,

  • they'd like to go travelling.

  • Nonsense. Of course not.

  • They see certain things about you.

  • But again, they're not going to go through it,

  • they can't be bothered.

  • They just want out, let somebody else sort that out [laughter].

  • So, so the thing is that we go

  • through life, not really knowing.

  • I mean it's very tender and poignant how sometimes some

  • of us feel, probably some of you in the audience feel

  • that broadly speaking, you're quite easy to live with.

  • I mean does anyone here think that they're,

  • kind of broadly speaking easy to live with,

  • if only they met the right person.

  • Like [laughter].

  • A few people.

  • A few people.

  • You know that's a very poignant combination whereby a very

  • romantic combination.

  • I spent my early 20s absolutely convinced that the only thing

  • that was missing was really the right person.

  • And so long as I met the right person then all would be well.

  • So this notion that we might be easy to live

  • with is deeply misleading and should be stamped out.

  • Of course we're not.

  • Everybody from close-up is trouble and we need to put this

  • in mind, bear this in mind.

  • If I was running the world, one of the key questions

  • that we would always ask each other on an early dinner date

  • without anything pejorative meant

  • by it is how are you crazy?

  • So I'm crazy like this, how about you?

  • And then we'd be expected to have a really thoughtful

  • and kind of well thought through, non-defensive,

  • non-hysterical answer to that question to be able

  • to share with another person.

  • Think of how much time we would save.

  • We don't need people in relationships to be perfect.

  • We need them to have a handle on their imperfections

  • and to be able to warn us and prepare us

  • for more noxious sides of their personalities outside

  • of those critical moments

  • when those personality distortions have deeply

  • upset us.

  • But it's very hard to do.

  • And most of the time we come upon discoveries

  • about other people at moments

  • when those discoveries have pained us deeply,

  • and therefore we are not likely to be in any way sympathetic.

  • So the calm explanation of one's insanities

  • to another person is one of the greatest gifts.

  • And I think one of the best wedding presents that any

  • of us could give one another is a large book called,

  • you know 'My Insanities' that you would give.

  • Each person would give 'My Insanities' to their partner.

  • And think how much time I think we would save.

  • You know the other thing

  • that Romanticism really gets wrong is this emphasis

  • on instinct right, so you know the old marriage,

  • marriage of reason, marriage by the family etcetera.

  • And then you know the romantics tell us this is marriage

  • by instinct, that special feeling.

  • Well, the thing about it is that you know you don't need

  • to accept or even know much about psychoanalysis

  • and psychotherapy to just take

  • on board the one key central idea of psychotherapy

  • which is the way that we love as adults is a reflection

  • and deeply connected to the way that we learnt

  • about love as children.

  • That is the foundation stone of psychotherapy.

  • So you look at an adult, you look at how you are

  • in adult relationships and there are a million connexions

  • that you can make with how we learnt about love as children.

  • And the problem with this is that the way that we learnt

  • about love as children is likely to have been a bit problematic.

  • It's likely that we received affection certainly.

  • But that in one way or another without necessarily meaning to,

  • our parents did us a great disservice.

  • In some ways they damaged us.

  • Not necessarily meaning to.

  • And this has very particular consequences for our capacity

  • to find love as adults.

  • Because often of what we're trying to do

  • in adult love is re-find a kind of love

  • that we knew as children.

  • But the kind of love that we knew

  • as children was not necessarily problem free, indeed,

  • it was very particularly and interestingly distorted

  • and laden with all sorts of difficulties.

  • And these become the new criteria which we search

  • for in our adult partners.

  • So when people say that in love what they're looking

  • for is someone to make them happy, to make them content,

  • to bring them happiness, we can't necessarily believe them.

  • Really what we're searching for when we search

  • for an adult partner is someone who feels familiar.

  • And very often the kind of people

  • that we meet don't feel familiar in the level of care, generosity

  • and goodness that they're bringing to us.

  • It just feels a little bit odd.

  • We think I don't necessarily feel at home

  • with this kind of treatment.

  • You know how it is when you sometimes set up a friend

  • and on paper, you know two people are completely perfect.

  • You know the two CDs match exactly.

  • And you set them up and then you know you have hopeful

  • expectations for the date, and then they come back to you

  • and you say, you know, 'how did it go?

  • How did the date go?'

  • And they say, 'I don't know.

  • You know they're really nice, I just you know we've got so much

  • in common in a way, all our interests,

  • we do all the same sports and read the same books,

  • but I don't know something was missing.

  • And I don't know if it's chemistry, something.'

  • And very often the thing is that our unconscious has recognised

  • that this simple very nice person is perfect,

  • except for they won't make us suffer in the way that we expect

  • to be made to suffer in love.

  • So they've got to be dismissed.

  • They're just not going to make me unhappy in the way

  • that I've learnt to expect that love should make me unhappy.

  • And you know we know the situation

  • in its most extreme form.

  • So you know somebody who can only take someone

  • who will hit them, who will strike them.

  • But even without the extremes of violence, there are many ways

  • in which we are attracted to people not so much

  • for their positive sides but because they feel, as I say,

  • familiar in the degree to which they will frustrate certain

  • of our aspirations for ourselves.

  • There's another problem you know with Romanticism.

  • And that's really to do with the idea of honesty.

  • You know Romanticism had extremely high regard

  • for the concept of honesty and that a relationship,

  • the whole point of a relationship is

  • that you can be honest with another human being.

  • Most of the time we've got to lie all the time

  • about who we are, what we feel.

  • 'How are you?'

  • 'I'm fine.'

  • And you're breaking down inside etcetera.

  • You know we're all in tears inside we're broken.

  • We've got to put up a front,

  • that's what society demands of us.

  • But finally we can meet someone

  • and with them the drawbridge can come down, the walls can come

  • down and we can be ourselves.

  • And there are wonderful moments in the early moments of love,

  • in the early phase of love when we really do feel

  • that we have found someone who could accept all of us.

  • And take on board everything that we are,

  • we need to have no more secrets.

  • We can be properly ourselves.

  • And the truth is that being yourself, fully yourself

  • around another human being is a truth

  • that you should probably spare anyone that you claim

  • to love [laughter] because it's really a little problematic.

  • Now, often it goes a bit like this, you know,

  • look let's be honest, I think no kids

  • in the room often it's a little bit around sex.

  • So, in the early days of love,

  • you know you've been a bit lonely

  • in all areas including sex and you meet somebody and you say,

  • you know, 'do you like?

  • You know that thing that you could do like with a rope,

  • and like handcuffs, like imagine if,

  • have you ever been interested?'

  • And they go, 'wow, yeah I've always wanted to try that

  • and that's always, but I've never dared to tell anyone.'

  • And there's that wonderful sense of intimacy based

  • on the no longer needing to be shamed.

  • We no longer need to be ashamed of ourselves.

  • We can be ourselves in the bedroom, etcetera.

  • And this is a very ecstatic discovery.

  • And it really makes us feel so powerful in the world

  • because we no longer have to be hunchback figure we can now go

  • out into the world and feel that some

  • of our darkest secrets have acceptance, an endorsement

  • from another human being.

  • This lovely phase tends to last

  • about three months [laughter] until,

  • until normally the moment goes like this.

  • Not the same for everybody, but a version

  • of this tends to happen.

  • So you've been sharing everything,

  • you've been sharing you know the thing,

  • and the thing, and the handcuffs.

  • And it's all fun.

  • And then you're sitting in a café with you know

  • with your lover with whom you've opened your soul,

  • and they've opened their soul.

  • And you spot a really quite interesting member

  • of the waiting team, and you go, 'see the waiter over there,

  • like wouldn't it be fun if like you know the thing

  • with the you know thing that we do,

  • what about tonight if they got involved?

  • If we asked them to get involved?

  • And like gave a number and they could come

  • and then you could be watching and then.'

  • And then you turn to your partner and rather

  • than being this kind of open, they're actually look

  • in quite a big state of distress.

  • They look kind of unhappy and miserable.

  • And you go, wow, wow I better stop right there.

  • And you're a fork in the road and one fork in the road leads

  • to the path of honesty,

  • and another path leads to the path of love.

  • And you've got a choice to make [laughter].

  • You've got a choice to make, are you going to carry

  • on this anecdote, this fantasy,

  • or are you just going to shut up?

  • And most of us are going to shut up at that point.

  • And that's the beginning of a very fundamental moment

  • when we realise that of course we cannot entirely ourselves.

  • Not because we're trying to retain a nasty secret

  • from our partner, but because in the name

  • of love we cannot be entirely ourselves.

  • We have to accept the role of editing.

  • Because the full disclosure of who we are and what we are

  • at every moment another human being will probably

  • destroy them.

  • And therefore we need in the name of love

  • to hold back and to edit a lot.

  • None of this Romanticism prepares us for.

  • Indeed, it makes it look like a betrayal.

  • So it sets up a huge, it's a very, very unhelpful backdrop

  • in which this scenario happens.

  • Because Romanticism insists on authenticity,

  • it's by being totally authentic that you are true to love.

  • Anything else is a betrayal of love.

  • And well, the facts on the ground are seriously I believe

  • in conflict with that romantic commandment

  • and causes a lot of difficulties.

  • I'm not through with my reservations about Romanticism.

  • Another thing about Romanticism that never really talks

  • about is Romanticism never really talks

  • about the practical side of life.

  • In the 19th century no one, no romantic poet, writer, artist,

  • etcetera ever mentions laundry.

  • There's absolutely no mention of the fact

  • that every couple who's been together any amount

  • of time will have to spend a lot of time doing laundry,

  • housework, cleaning, raising children, etcetera.

  • This just goes unmentioned.

  • And this causes us real difficulties because it sets

  • up an expectation that you know intelligent, sensitive,

  • soulful people don't really bother about these things.

  • And therefore there's no particular emphasis

  • on making an accommodation, a preparation for some

  • of the difficulties that might come in this area.

  • So at some point in a relationship a version

  • of this happens, this kind of scenario happens.

  • Not exactly this, but a version of this happens,

  • which is that a couple who you know are very much committed

  • to love and you know disagree with their parents and some

  • of their more petty attitudes, the things like you know,

  • etcetera where the salt and pepper should go and etcetera.

  • They will suddenly have an argument in the bathroom

  • that goes a bit like this.

  • One of the couples will say, 'what's that towel doing there?'

  • And the other person goes, 'I just had a shower.'

  • 'Yeah but what's it doing on the floor?'

  • 'Well I just threw it on the floor

  • because I got to go and meet Bill.'

  • And you go, 'No, no I know you've got to meet Bill,

  • but what's it doing on the floor?'

  • And, the other one goes, 'Well,

  • how do you mean what is it doing on the floor?

  • It's just on the floor.'

  • And suddenly there's a kind of new turn of impatience.

  • Basically because both partners think that they're very clever.

  • And they're not petty, they're not going to argue

  • about petty things like towels on the floor.

  • They associate that with their grandparents or something.

  • You know if you're a true romantic you don't worry

  • about these things, you don't make no accommodations,

  • you are too clever to have this sort of argument.

  • And when two people convinced that they're too clever

  • to have this sort of argument,

  • you know the argument will be bitter [laughter].

  • And so very often there is no accommodation

  • with this sort, this aspect of life.

  • You know think of Paul "Madame Bovary" in Flaubert's novel.

  • Madame Bovary has been brought up in ideas of love drawn

  • from romantic fiction.

  • So she believes that love is all about guys on horseback

  • and castles and walks through the mist, etcetera.

  • And then she gets married to this quite nice,

  • but you know pretty ordinary regular kind of guy,

  • but on the whole, okay.

  • And suddenly she realises that a lot of her time has got

  • to be spent doing the laundry, organising the milk,

  • and the cheese, and sitting

  • down with her husband while he's doing the accounts.

  • And she's supposed to be organising her domestic order

  • in the evenings and he's reading the newspaper.

  • And she thinks that her life has gone terribly wrong.

  • That it's a disaster, what has happened.

  • She thought that she was marrying for love.

  • And now she's ended up with this kind of domestic situation

  • and these doubts unleash a series of processes in her mind,

  • which will lead eventually to her suicide and death.

  • That essentially the belief that the practical side

  • of life has no place in a good love life is central

  • to Romanticism and a disaster for our chances of love.

  • So, towels, more on that in a minute.

  • The other thing that the romantics very much believe is

  • the romantics believe that you shouldn't necessarily talk too

  • much to your lover and that talking is often a sign

  • of not understanding somebody.

  • So very privileged space is given in Romanticism

  • to that account that we sometimes get in the beginning

  • of relationships that two people have understood one another

  • without needing to talk all the time.

  • So, people will say things like, you know it was amazing,

  • you know we were there, we were by the waterfront,

  • we were chatting, and then you know sometimes we were just

  • quiet because we just understood.

  • We just knew, you know.

  • I would say one thing and it was amazing, he knew.

  • You know he'd been there before.

  • She understood.

  • It was like we had travelled immediately down the same path,

  • we don't need to explain ourselves in the way that I had

  • to in that horrible last relationship.

  • In this one I just, I can be myself and we're a bit wordless.

  • And the Romanticism generally believe that too much analysis,

  • too much putting of words on top of feelings is a bad thing,

  • a quintessential romantic belief is that you destroy feelings

  • and emotions by thinking too much about them.

  • I don't know if anybody in the audience feels,

  • some people feel this.

  • That if you think too much you break things.

  • That thinking too much is,

  • I should have weeded those people out.

  • But a few people have come here nevertheless.

  • This is a disaster for a philosopher it's like what?

  • Hang on [laughter].

  • Nevertheless, there are people, erratic's, I'm being nasty

  • but we've all, we all have that feeling sometime

  • that words can break things.

  • And so in a way one of the nicest stories of love

  • that romantics tell us is intuitive understanding

  • of one person by another without the medium of words.

  • Again, over the long-term a catastrophe,

  • short-term, charming.

  • Long-term catastrophe.

  • One of the things that it leads to is an outbreak of sulking.

  • Romanticism was responsible for a worldwide, enormous increase

  • in the prevalence of sulks [laughter].

  • Now, what is a sulk?

  • A sulk is a feeling of hurt with another person,

  • a wound that the other person has given you

  • that you are not going to explain to them,

  • for the simple reason that they're supposed to love you.

  • And if they love you they're supposed to know.

  • So of course you could explain what's wrong with you,

  • but if you had to explain

  • that would be a prove they didn't love you because love is

  • by its nature wordless.

  • True love is wordless.

  • And that's why let's say you're coming back from the party

  • where that offensive thing happened, and you're kind

  • of silent in the car, deliberately, you're not going

  • to say what happened, because you're a romantic

  • and they should know.

  • And they say, they're going to make a few attempts

  • and they go, 'is anything wrong?'

  • 'Nope.' And then so you go up, you know you go up the stairs,

  • you go home, you go into your apartment and they say,

  • you know, 'come into the bedroom.'

  • And you go, 'nope.'

  • And you go into the bathroom and you bolt the door.

  • And they go, 'come on.'

  • And they're knocking at the door, and 'Just come

  • on tell me what it is.'

  • And you're like, 'nuh uh.'

  • And the reason is that as a romantic you believe

  • that a true lover should be able to intuit the contents

  • of your soul through the bathroom panel door [laughter].

  • Through the surface of your body and into your interior.

  • And they should know.

  • So why would you ever bother telling them.

  • So this is a disaster.

  • Because unfortunately even the most well-meaning people simply

  • cannot understand all of us.

  • They can understand bits of us, how we felt maybe

  • when we were humiliated by our father at an early age.

  • Or how it felt to join a new school at a certain point.

  • Some things they can just get.

  • But a lot of things, particularly

  • over the long-term, just no one can get.

  • You cannot expect the other person to be a mind reader.

  • And yet Romanticism places the ability to mind read precisely

  • at the kernel of its vision, the core of its vision

  • of love, deeply problematic.

  • Deeply problematic.

  • Here's another thing that Romanticism talks to us about.

  • It talks to us about the way in which we really love somebody.

  • You love everything about them.

  • Of course you love the amazing things about them, but oddly

  • and touchingly you quite love the slightly imperfect things

  • about them.

  • And that's why in the early days of love, there's a lot of kind

  • of tenderness and excitement around the discovery of the less

  • than perfect sides of somebody that are used to feed into love

  • and that intensify love.

  • Maybe your partner's got a slight gap

  • between their two front teeth.

  • Not a problem.

  • I mean a problem for an orthodontist,

  • but for you it's charming [laughter].

  • It's charming.

  • Maybe there's that old pair of pyjamas

  • that their mother gave them and they put it on on cold nights

  • and it's got bear prints on it.

  • It doesn't look that glamorous,

  • it wouldn't win any fashion awards, but it's them

  • and it's theirs and it's incredibly sweet

  • and you love them all the more for it.

  • So in a way in the early days of love, the fragilities

  • and the vulnerabilities of another person are part

  • of what makes that person so loveable until [laughter].

  • You're getting the hang of this now [laughter].

  • Until maybe about three months in a version

  • of the following scenario happens.

  • So maybe you've been out for a big night, etcetera

  • and it's morning, it's dawn and you're having some breakfast.

  • And you're having some cereal, maybe they've picked out a kind

  • of granola-ish, so quite nutty kind of cereal.

  • And next to you they're eating their cereal

  • and you're eating yours and you just turn to them

  • and you go 'are you cow or something' [laughter]?

  • 'This just sounds disgusting.

  • Just shut your mouth or something.'

  • And you know this person suddenly turns around,

  • and they say, 'hang on a minute this is like the third thing

  • that you're criticising me for in 24 hours.

  • Well, I thought you loved me.'

  • And you go, 'I do love you

  • but you're eating like the bovine way.

  • I mean just stop it.'

  • And they get terribly offended

  • and they go no one's ever told me that before.

  • And you want to go, 'yeah because why would they?

  • I mean your friend was not going to tell you.

  • Your parents aren't going to tell you.

  • And your ex probably knew it but went off to India' [laughter].

  • 'So the point is no one's going to tell you

  • and you sound like a cow.'

  • At which point you've got a problem on your hands

  • because Romanticism doesn't allow

  • for this sort of situation.

  • It suggests that love is the acceptance of the whole being.

  • And therefore, at one point

  • in the relationship one person is likely to say

  • to another 'if you love me why do you criticise me?'

  • So it's that criticism is here.

  • Love is here.

  • They should never be together and if they are ever together,

  • it's a sign that love has failed.

  • This, again is a disastrous philosophy.

  • The idea that another person could spend time with us

  • and not spot a whole lot of things that are problematic,

  • is really the hype of sentimentality.

  • Of course there's lots, I mean are you perfect?

  • If you're not perfect how on earth do you expect someone not

  • to notice the imperfections and not mind them?

  • But nevertheless, Romanticism tells us

  • that no this has no place.

  • Look, let's look away from that rather unhelpful philosophy

  • to an earlier version of love.

  • This one developed by the ancient Greeks.

  • Which I think is a lot more helpful.

  • The ancient Greeks very focussed on love, as we are.

  • But had a very different vision of what love is.

  • They felt that love is admiration for the perfect sides

  • of another human being.

  • For the virtues, the qualities, the accomplishments

  • in the character and achievements of another person.

  • There's other stuff of course.

  • There's flaws and things, and you may be generous toward them,

  • and you may be forgiving of them.

  • But you don't love them.

  • The word love is reserved for admiration for what is virtuous

  • and accomplished in another person.

  • And for the ancient Greeks, the whole notion of love is

  • that love should be a process of mutual education

  • in which two people under the auspices of love undertake

  • to educate one another to become better versions of themselves.

  • And they do this not to be cruel, not as a way

  • of bringing each other down

  • but because they have the sincerest best interest

  • of the other at their heart.

  • And therefore love is a process whereby teacher

  • and a pupil are constantly rotating roles.

  • Everyone is the teacher and everyone is the pupil

  • at certain points and has lots of things to take on board.

  • This is not a sign that love has been abandoned, it is the proof

  • that love is an action.

  • Now this sounds so weird in a modern age.

  • I mean if you said to somebody, if you said to your partner,

  • 'well I went to listen to this guy at the Opera House,

  • and yeah he's got some various ideas and he's written a book

  • and on this basis I would

  • like to teach you certain things [laughter].

  • I would like to deliver a short seminar,

  • short but to the point seminar on your character,

  • achievements and nature.'

  • This would be so weird.

  • They'd be like, 'what?

  • What I thought you loved me,' etcetera.

  • Now, why are we such bad teachers?

  • You know a lot of relationship arguments can essentially be

  • seen as failed teaching moments.

  • There's something you want to say and it goes terribly,

  • terribly wrong on the journey to your listener.

  • Why does it go so wrong?

  • Why does the teaching lesson fail so badly?

  • Partly because we don't think it's legitimate to teach.

  • So if someone's telling you, your job is not legitimate,

  • you'd be a bit panicked, like, 'oh wow, if I'm not supposed

  • to be this, how do I?'

  • So you're not relaxed.

  • The other thing of course, what makes a good teacher is

  • that they're calm, is that they're relaxed.

  • And one of the best ways to be a calm teacher is not

  • to mind too much if your lesson doesn't really get

  • through to the other person.

  • So you know a great math teacher, you know they're calm

  • in the classroom, because there's not that much at stake.

  • Of course they want their, you know pupils to pick up a bit

  • about trigonometry or whatever, but if they don't

  • and if they flunk their exams,

  • well there'll be a new lot coming next year,

  • it doesn't really matter.

  • There's not that much at stake.

  • The thing is that in love's classroom,

  • we are much more tense.

  • We are much more on edge.

  • And the reason is that so much seems to depend on it

  • and the background

  • of our thoughts is the most terrifying spectre

  • as we're trying to teach.

  • And the terrifying spectre goes

  • like this 'I think I've married an idiot.

  • I think I've got to spend the rest of my life with someone

  • who doesn't understand very basic, very important things

  • that matter so much to me and this person is not listening.'

  • And because they're not listening we're going to ramp

  • up the pressure and the tension.

  • And we're going to start to be rude.

  • And we're going to start to humiliate,

  • and we're going to start to swear.

  • And the terrible problem is that no one has ever, ever managed

  • to teach anyone anything by humiliating them.

  • By the time you are humiliating your partner in order

  • to each them something, forget it, bye-bye.

  • The lesson's over you are never going to get through that way.

  • As we know from HR departments in offices,

  • if you want to teach someone something,

  • it's got to be 99% honey and tiny,

  • tiny little criticism at the very end.

  • You know I love this, I love that, I love that.

  • Did you know that thing that?

  • That's maybe how you've got a chance of getting through.

  • But we don't do this.

  • So in love's classroom we do not accept

  • that love should be a process of mutual education.

  • We know so much about our partners

  • that no one else every does.

  • We've got a ringside seat on their charming sides

  • and on their insanities in a way that no one ever will.

  • But because we think it's a betrayal of love

  • that knowledge can't be shared, used and grown with.

  • Because we are so brittle and defensive as students

  • of this we simply fail to accept that the other person,

  • if somebody tries to give us a simple lecture,

  • we might even use the pejorative term.

  • You know, 'are you trying to give me a lecture?'

  • And you know of course Plato would say, 'Yeah I'm trying

  • to give you a lecture because I love you.

  • Because I love you I'm going to give you a lecture

  • and hope tomorrow you'll give me a lecture.'

  • And that's the way it works, but the romantics are like,

  • 'oh no I'm not going to stay with her,

  • she gives me lectures all the time, oh I must leave her.'

  • And so what happens when love's classroom has failed?

  • Well then the couple, things get rather brittle and rather

  • than trying to teach, the couple descends into a cycle

  • of mutual nagging and shirking.

  • What is nagging?

  • Nagging is what happens on the other side

  • of an attempt to teach.

  • You're no longer going to try to teach,

  • you're just going to insist.

  • You're going to force the person to believe and to listen.

  • You're going to get very controlling.

  • And ministerial.

  • And you're going to insist that they're back at a certain time.

  • That they do this thing.

  • And you don't really care whether you're going

  • to charm your way into their minds or not, you just insist

  • that it's done that way.

  • And meanwhile nagging always has the counterpart in shirking.

  • The shirking knows that tone, oh well they're going to pick

  • up the newspaper go upstairs.

  • They're not going to listen.

  • So there's a mutual deafness.

  • Teaching and learning has gone completely wrong and that,

  • unfortunately is very often what happens in relationships

  • under the aegis of Romanticism.

  • Now, are we all to despair?

  • Where's this going to go?

  • Can we rescue this nosedive of feelings?

  • Yes, we can.

  • I think there's lots of things to be hopeful about.

  • Sometimes people say to me things like,

  • 'well you are not really hopeful about love.

  • Are you saying that like we should just reduce

  • our expectations?'

  • No, no we shouldn't reduce our expectations.

  • I really believe that we should go into relationships

  • with very high expectations.

  • The problem is that Romanticism defined,

  • very rightly certain high expectations,

  • but then gave us no way

  • of reaching those expectations securely.

  • It's like it set the bar, but then gave us no way

  • of exceeding to that bar reliably.

  • So, the task before us I think is to build the steps to get

  • to the high place that we've accorded to love.

  • Not to necessarily bring down love, but to try to find a way

  • and as Ann says one of the characters in the book

  • at some point says you know it takes them a long time

  • to realise, but they do realise

  • that ultimately love is not just something that you feel.

  • It is ultimately a skill that needs to be learnt.

  • And it sounds very odd because we're so in love with the notion

  • of the intuitive relationship in which everything just comes sort

  • of by nature and if it doesn't come by nature then it is wrong.

  • And it's so contrary to the way we do other things.

  • You know we are an incredibly procedural society that believes

  • that there are rules, and techniques, and tricks,

  • and ways of making things happen.

  • But somehow in the area of love we insist stubbornly

  • on intuition.

  • And it sounds so odd if you compare it with other things.

  • I mean imagine if I said to you, you know I'm going to fly a 777

  • down to Melbourne tomorrow.

  • I'm going to land it by intuition, or I'm going

  • to perform a piece of brain surgery by intuition.

  • They'd be like, what that's crazy.

  • Nevertheless, in the area of love we are ready to embark

  • on you know 50-year marriages

  • by intuition just hoping it's just all going to go well.

  • So what are some of these skills that we might need to develop.

  • Well let me give you just a few, and I'll throw these out

  • and there will of course be so many more.

  • But I think one of the things that can help,

  • and it sounds rather odd, but one of the things

  • that can really help is to learn

  • to see your partner as a small child.

  • Probably between the ages of 2 to 3-1/2.

  • Basically to imagine that your partner is of roughly that age.

  • Now, the reason I say this is that all

  • of us nowadays are really pretty good

  • around 2 to 3-1/2 year olds.

  • So just imagine you've got one of those things at home

  • and you're cooking a dinner

  • and I don't know you've made some schnitzel,

  • potatoes, broccoli.

  • You give the kid the dinner, and he just goes 'no'

  • and throws the whole dinner on the floor.

  • 'No' like this.

  • And now you don't hit the child.

  • You don't go I've had such a hard day at work and now this,

  • are you trying to bring me down, are you trying

  • to crush my character?

  • You go, 'oh no, you've got a sore tooth.

  • You must be quite tired.'

  • Or, 'maybe it's that jealousy

  • with your sibling it is getting to you.

  • It's hard to share your toys.'

  • Listen we come up with very gentle explanations

  • of why a piece of behaviour has appeared on the horizon

  • that seems pretty mean.

  • We don't necessarily believe of that age are mean,

  • we simply feel that they're in some ways hurting, anxious,

  • damaged, in some way and we want to help them.

  • We're generous.

  • Our adult love affairs do not find us in that kind of mood.

  • I mean there's we're constantly going, you're trying

  • to bring me down, you're trying to humiliate me.

  • You haven't given me that attention I need.

  • We very much take everything extremely personally.

  • You know part of the problem is

  • that we don't look like children.

  • I mean this is really unhelpful.

  • Like one of the great things about children is

  • that they look like children.

  • So you kind of just know that they are a child.

  • But if you look at me,

  • or someone else you know you think this guy's an adult.

  • He sort of looks like an adult.

  • So it's quite counterintuitive to go like maybe parts

  • of his character are about 2-1/2 years old.

  • You just can't really believe it.

  • But the thing is that you sort of have to believe it.

  • I mean the problem with psychological wounds

  • and distortions is that you can't see them.

  • I mean literally it's as simple as that.

  • You can't see them.

  • If I've got a broken arm, right?

  • Everyone can see that I've got a broken arms and you start to go,

  • okay the guys like messed up his speech because he's got a bit

  • of a broken arm, he must be in pain.

  • And when he's going to walk through the door,

  • we'll hold the door, and we'll make some special accommodation

  • because we know he's not all that well in some way.

  • I mean It's just obvious he's got a problem.

  • The thing is all of us are kind of like

  • that broken inside in various key ways.

  • But there's no easy way of signalling it right?

  • We can't signal that we've got these wounds

  • and breakages, etcetera.

  • And so our partners don't necessarily give us the

  • accommodations that they would.

  • And so that's why it's so important to realise

  • that of course, wandering

  • through the world everybody gets very severely broken and in need

  • of a lot of forgiveness, and generally on the whole,

  • not mean, just frightened.

  • Most people are very, very scared.

  • And most appalling pieces of behaviour, normally have fear

  • at the heart of them rather than evil.

  • The other thing that's quite key,

  • I think it is a real achievement of love is

  • to learn to see your partner.

  • You know most of us after a while start to see our partners

  • as idiots they just are a bit of an idiot.

  • It's just like, 'oh God

  • that idiot thing has happened again,' with our partner.

  • Now, this is why, this is why part of the reason why comedy

  • and humour is so important in a relationship.

  • You have to find a way to access the comedic part of all of you.

  • Now the interesting thing about comedy is

  • that in comedy many comic heroes are total idiots.

  • I mean if you think of someone like David Brent or Larry David,

  • I mean these guys are just total, total idiots,

  • but when we're watching the shows we kind

  • of do this amazing thing.

  • Which is we both know they're idiots,

  • but we kind of like them.

  • We do this amazing metamorphosis.

  • We start to see them as loveable idiots.

  • Kind of loveable idiots.

  • And that is such a piece of ethical imagination.

  • To turn someone to an idiot to a loveable idiot

  • in your imagination is a major piece of maturity.

  • And if we're able to achieve that even sometimes

  • in love we will have learnt very much how

  • to temper our more punitive interpretations of who it is

  • that we've got together with.

  • You know the other thing that we need of course is

  • to really reckon with our habit of getting into crushes.

  • It was very charming

  • at a certain point how easily we developed crushes on people.

  • And you know for a time it was thrilling

  • and you know it really kept us going through certain years.

  • But like you really have to get over the crush thing.

  • Because the thing is you don't need to know someone at all well

  • to know, even though they look completely charming,

  • and it was lovely to see them in the airline queue,

  • or at the supermarket briefly, etcetera,

  • and that's why you got a little touchy when you got home.

  • Just because there was a link in your imagination there was kind

  • of an angel walking around the aisles of the supermarket,

  • or at the airport, and now you have to go home, no, sadly.

  • But there was this angel.

  • We got to get over it.

  • And the reason we can get over it is

  • by absolutely some scientific certainty,

  • which is that there are no angels.

  • They're only human beings.

  • And every human being wandering the earth is very,

  • very problematic from close up.

  • You don't know how this person is disturbed

  • and would drive you mad.

  • But you know, you have to know and take

  • on board that they would.

  • They just would.

  • If you knew them better, despite their charms.

  • And honestly their you know ankles look lovely,

  • and that little bit of conversation that you had

  • at the conference was just very promising.

  • But the point is deep down,

  • they will cause you immense trouble because,

  • not that they're evil.

  • They're human and everybody does this.

  • So, in a way you know we're so obsessed nowadays.

  • Partly because of technology with the idea

  • of finding the perfect person, the right person.

  • We're all the time swiping left and right in the search

  • for that right person.

  • You know the truth is there is no such character.

  • Everybody is going to be wrong in substantial areas.

  • There is no such thing.

  • Compatibility ultimately is an achievement of love.

  • It isn't and can't and shouldn't be, it's preconditioned.

  • And therefore the notion that we could only really get together

  • with somebody when we have found somebody

  • who matches us entirely.

  • The person who is right isn't the person who agrees

  • and condones every aspect of our character.

  • It's somebody who negotiates the differences between two people

  • in a particular way, with a particular generosity

  • and dare I say it sometimes, humour.

  • This is the so-called right person.

  • But not that they are in some ways, magical ways perfect.

  • Look, the other thing, I should mention it just very quickly,

  • around sex.

  • You know we live in an age

  • with very high expectations around sex.

  • Eroticism has prepared us for very high things.

  • And well, the whole subject is a little bit of a vail

  • of tears to be honest.

  • There are really two things that we want in this area

  • and they run in completely opposite directions.

  • All of us want safety.

  • We want to be really safe and loyal with somebody.

  • And loyalty brings with it safety.

  • So we really want safety.

  • And the other thing we really, really want is excitement.

  • And the two just point in completely different directions.

  • And but you know periodically,

  • it happens on about a 20-year basis, people come along

  • and go uh, uh, uh I found a solution to this kind

  • of like safety excitement thing.

  • You go, yeah what is it?

  • So in the sixties it was always, it's called free love.

  • So basically the deal it you get a bit of both,

  • you get like safety in one corner and you get

  • like excitement too and it's really great.

  • And nowadays we're deep in the age of polyamory.

  • So a lot of people go, there's this thing I've heard,

  • it's called polyamory and it's great, it gives you everything.

  • And you know jealousy is just this thing that's dreamt

  • up by capitalism and [laughter] just you know and out there.

  • Well, ladies and gentlemen.

  • It just, it just is not true.

  • These two things are deeply incompatible.

  • I'm not going to go in to too much why, we can discuss

  • that later if you'd like, but essentially you really have

  • to make a choice between varieties of suffering.

  • What kind of suffering do you want to go for?

  • Like do you want to go for you know, and also what kind

  • of upside is more important to you?

  • Do you want to go for like the safety, loyalty thing?

  • Which is terrific, you have you know fantastic,

  • kind of cosiness, really sweet,

  • but you know you will be missing out.

  • And sometimes in the suburbs on a Saturday night you'll be like,

  • oh wow, you know what's going on in the bars, and the kind

  • of swinging places of the city and it's not for you.

  • See, you've made your choice.

  • And then of course, of course there's the other choice

  • which is excitement, which is terrible thrilling

  • and new people all the time, and the first time you undress them

  • and it's all thrilling, thrilling.

  • But of course it's utter chaos.

  • Your life is full recriminations,

  • full of jealousy, full of confusion,

  • the children are in a mess.

  • But you know there's the excitement.

  • So really the choice before us is what variety

  • of suffering do you want to go for?

  • Do you want to go for the chaos bit or the kind of bored

  • and stultification bit?

  • Which one?

  • Because that's your choice.

  • And you know it's funny.

  • It's good you're laughing because I [laughter].

  • I recently went to the United States and did a book tour

  • and it didn't happen so much on the east coast.

  • Which is like more closer to a kind of European sensibility.

  • But by the time I got to California,

  • but the time I was talking

  • about this there was literally a stun silence in the room.

  • Like what?

  • What? You're saying you can't make things perfect?

  • What? We live in LA.

  • Like What?

  • But of course you know I think one of the great contributions,

  • you know Britain is not responsible for very much,

  • that's totally perfect.

  • But one of its greatest exports.

  • One of the greatest British exports is

  • melancholy [laughter].

  • And melancholy is a really kind of useful emotion sometimes.

  • Because it's not fury, it's not rage, it's like, yeah.

  • Like you know life's imperfect but I'm dealing with it.

  • I'm coping with it.

  • You know I've got Morrissey, I've got Bach I'm handling it.

  • It's under control.

  • And I think this is an area, yeah.

  • This is an area where we may want to have recourse

  • to that peculiar British gift to humanity.

  • Look, you know am I saying

  • that we should always stick with people?

  • You know are we in danger of saying that in

  • that case anyone is worth sticking with?

  • Look, I don't want to say that.

  • In many ways, you know marriage is a pretty nasty thing to do

  • to somebody that you claim to love.

  • It's putting them through some pretty difficult stresses.

  • And there are undoubtedly sometimes people

  • that you should leave.

  • Some relationships which should be broken up.

  • How can you tell?

  • How do you know whether you should leave somebody?

  • And you know I think there's always kind

  • of a simple rule of thumb.

  • I think that you know if you can look at your life,

  • honestly survey it's good and bad sides

  • and if you can honestly pinpoint all the things

  • that are making you profoundly unhappy to your partner.

  • If you look around and you think, okay yeah all the things

  • that are really bringing me down, it's them.

  • It really is them.

  • It's them.

  • Leave. If you really can feel that, just leave.

  • All right then you should leave.

  • But if you honestly take an audit of your sources

  • of unhappiness and the many causes

  • for which they're you know reverberating through your soul

  • and you look at your partner and you go, I'm not sure

  • if I can fully blame them for everything, then stay.

  • Stay [laughter].

  • Because what you may have encountered is some

  • of the unhappiness of existence in the company

  • of another person rather than because of another person.

  • So easy to merge the two.

  • I mean Great Britain, Britain has done exactly this

  • with its marriage to the European Union [laughter].

  • It very much believed that all

  • of its unhappiness could be pinpointed to this thing,

  • by getting rid of it it would be happy

  • and now it's discovering a lesson that many people

  • in relationships have also discovered.

  • When it's too late.

  • [ Applause ]

  • Should we even bother with marriage?

  • My novel is about marriage in a way.

  • It's very much a novel focussing

  • on long-term relationships, with a marriage.

  • Is there any point to it anymore?

  • You know many articles, normally about one a week

  • in a major broad sheet newspaper is always

  • about is marriage still in?

  • Is it still relevant?

  • And of course it doesn't really make sense

  • from all sorts of points of view.

  • Like if you take a completely sober look at marriage.

  • It's completely insane.

  • It's like I don't know I'm going to give half

  • of all my belongings, and you know still nowadays people don't

  • invest heavily in lawyers to make things easy.

  • We kind of jump headlong into marriage and we still do it just

  • by all the reasons why we might not.

  • So why do we do this and is it just a kind of insanity.

  • Well, I don't think so.

  • I think that the very fact that we make ourselves go

  • through marriage and we invite all our friends.

  • And we have a huge wedding.

  • So it would be so embarrassing if we had

  • to call them all up go you know what?

  • You know that TV you bought me?

  • Really sorry.

  • It's only been three months but I'm quitting, right?

  • Why do we publicly betroth ourselves to another person?

  • Because I think a mature part of us knows that we benefit

  • from the cage of marriage.

  • It is a cage.

  • But we put ourselves in it.

  • We lock ourselves, and we throw away the key ourselves.

  • Not because we're crazy, but because we realise

  • that there are sides of our character

  • that really can only develop in an environment in which neither

  • of us can quit the room immediately.

  • Actually the ability to run away so tempting, though it is,

  • is not always a benefit to the things

  • that we've got to work through.

  • So we willingly encage ourselves, because we realise

  • that there is some kind of piece of maturity,

  • some piece of growing up that is going to happen

  • when we are locked together in a situation

  • which we can't immediately, except at a huge cost

  • and a huge embarrassment.

  • Embarrassment is very important.

  • We're willingly entering into a situation

  • which it would be deeply embarrassing to leave.

  • We're not simply crazy.

  • We're aware of the debt that maturity owes

  • to being slightly locked into a situation.

  • So look, I do believe that it is possible

  • to have long-term relationships.

  • I just think we need to run through kind of check lists.

  • When are we ready something crazy world

  • where debt maturity is to being slightly locked into a situation

  • so I do believe that it is possible long-term relationships

  • I just think we need to run through kind of checklist

  • when we ready for love?

  • When we ready to really embark

  • on this long-term business of love.

  • I think you're ready to really go for it in love

  • when you finally and conclusively accept

  • that you really are crazy.

  • And you have a really quite a good handle on your craziness.

  • And not least, you have a really good handle

  • on your partner's craziness.

  • And you have an absolute awareness that anyone you meet,

  • even the most charming person on a train is going

  • to be very imperfect because that's human nature.

  • When you're ready to do the laundry.

  • When you're ready to discuss towels, add in for an item.

  • When you're ready, not merely to insist

  • that others will guess what's in your heart,

  • that you may even have to use words to spell it out, very,

  • very patiently over long periods.

  • And you're ready to, are you ready to believe that all

  • of this with a dose of humour,

  • belongs to a sincere relationship, then,

  • ladies and gentlemen, I think you are ready for love.

  • And I would commend you to move forward on it.

  • That's all from me, we've got a bit of time for questions.

  • Thank you so much.

  • [ Applause ]

  • Thank you so there are some mics and do approach them

  • with a question, a confession, a vulnerability.

  • We're among friends.

  • Yes? Brave lady here number two.

  • >> Thank you very much.

  • My question is about tools that you spoke of.

  • The craziness quotient you talked

  • about that we all should be adopting and acknowledging.

  • Is there a system that you think you could be developing,

  • just like we have for job interviews and those sorts

  • of things and for [inaudible] if you got a dating sites

  • that aren't just related to how big certain bits are,

  • but about the compatibility?

  • Because as you referenced earlier time gone

  • by we had arranged marriages, we had elders.

  • So with the absence of that system, is there a new portal.

  • A new dropdown menu?

  • >> Yeah, you know essentially

  • because in a way Silicon Valley is very romantic

  • as a current institution and very much believes in helping us

  • to find the right person.

  • And if you look at most of the technological tools

  • that have appeared in the last 15 years,

  • an enormous number are designed to increase on choices

  • and to try and direct us toward this person called the

  • right person.

  • And I tried to hint that in a sense that's useful.

  • And in a sense it's unhelpful.

  • Because this emphasis on rightness and this notion

  • that just with us a superior piece of technology

  • and algorithm we will get to a person

  • with whom there will be no friction,

  • sets us up rather dangerously for the reality of love,

  • which is that everybody is a different person.

  • We've all come from a womb, let's remember.

  • We've all come from a womb in which we didn't have to speak.

  • In which our needs were met as it were just automatically

  • through an umbilical cord.

  • And it takes a good long time, a good 50 years

  • or so before we realise that we have actually left

  • that environment [laughter]

  • and that no one can fully understand us.

  • That we're, you know if you're lonely

  • with say 40% of your life only.

  • You're doing really well.

  • But I mean the idea that you're not going

  • to be lonely is very misguided.

  • And therefore, I would be wary of utopian experiments

  • with matching and constant attempts to match.

  • What we really need is you know absent bit of technology

  • that teaches patients.

  • That teaches resourcefulness.

  • And a resourcefulness that teaches forgiveness.

  • That teaches humour.

  • To date that hasn't happened at all.

  • There are no apps.

  • You know it's interesting I was invited

  • to a Google conference the other day in the UK.

  • And Eric Schmidt the chairman of Google was talking

  • about what Google was planning in the next 15 years.

  • And it was like putting people on Mars and curing cancer,

  • and like you know x-ray vision,

  • I don't know all sorts of things.

  • Amazing things.

  • And then somebody

  • in the audience said you know Mr. Schmidt, is there anything

  • that you think Google can't do?

  • Like things that are beyond the technology?

  • And he laughed and he went, well we're not exactly

  • about to invent an app to teach people to be more forgiving.

  • He laughed.

  • And anyway.

  • I still like what a mad thing.

  • So then, like what a mad thing.

  • So then fortunately, I saddled up to him

  • at the reception afterwards and said Mr. Schmidt,

  • you're curing cancer, but you think it's impossible

  • to create a piece of technology which will assist us in the task

  • of being more forgiving.

  • I profoundly disagree with you.

  • And we had a kind of conversation.

  • But I think that look, to some extent my book is a piece

  • of technology, very old fashioned,

  • glued together it doesn't move, or sing, or light up.

  • But it's essentially a tool, a piece of technology.

  • I don't like entertainment.

  • I don't like entertaining people for the sake of it.

  • I'm a teacher and I've written this novel.

  • It's not boring really.

  • Well, nothing happens in it really [laughter]

  • but really it's following two people in their attempt.

  • They go from being romantics who believe

  • that love is just a feeling to slowly, slowly,

  • slowly they realise they're going to break up

  • and they're going to create a disaster

  • in their lives unless they learn some lessons of love.

  • And the novel is you know taking you through that journey.

  • It's an attempt to teach through the medium of a novel.

  • And I think that we need that sort

  • of intervention into our lives.

  • And Ann very kindly mentioned The School

  • of Life which is opening.

  • The School of Life is dedicated to trying

  • to skill people up in this area.

  • It sounds so unromantic.

  • And I apologise for it sounding so unromantic.

  • If you said I've just come back from a class

  • in which I've learnt how

  • to interpret the moods of my partner.

  • Think, oh my God, that sounds horrible.

  • Really? You went to that, poor you.

  • And of course the old thing is when people go, oh,

  • you know I'm seeing a therapist.

  • Everyone goes oh no poor you.

  • The relationship, we're seeing a marriage therapist, oh my God,

  • well it's clearly about to be over.

  • Because of course there is no surer sign

  • that a relationship is on safe ground

  • than that a couple has taken the step to try

  • to examine it logically.

  • So, anyway, I'm rambling.

  • But I hope that in some what answers your question thank you

  • so much.

  • [ Applause ]

  • >> Hi. I just wanted to know what are your thoughts

  • on the search for love through things like Tinder?

  • >> Yes. Okay let's go back to that.

  • I think that Tinder, again excites us

  • because it makes the choosing of people, it places the emphasis

  • on the story of love at a very particular moment,

  • which is the moment of choice.

  • And it's not surprising because our culture is so obsessed.

  • Most love stories are not love stories.

  • They're the stories of two people finding each other.

  • Overcoming certain obstacles and getting together.

  • It then ends.

  • The story then ends.

  • So, I don't really have a problem

  • with Tinder I'm sure it's fun.

  • The thing is if you have a bit of a high profile

  • and you're married, sadly you can't go on Tinder [laughter].

  • So, I have no idea.

  • I have no idea about Tinder.

  • But, that was a joke.

  • That was a joke [laughter].

  • Joke. Joke.

  • But it places the emphasis on the wrong place,

  • which is it leads to an impatient search.

  • You're throwing a lot of human beings away.

  • Look, I as a secular Jew I love the Christian idea.

  • That once you know about love you could love anyone.

  • And Christianity really emphasises this point,

  • like you could love anyone.

  • You could love a leper.

  • You could love someone with leprosy.

  • So imagine Twitter breaks down

  • and goes actually stop this choice,

  • we've chosen you a leper, please love them.

  • You're like oh no.

  • I don't want to love a leper.

  • I can't swipe.

  • You're trying to swipe and the thing doesn't swipe.

  • You're stuck with the leper.

  • Right? Wouldn't necessarily be bad.

  • It would teach us a lot of things.

  • And I think the more you know about love,

  • the less important it is who you're loving.

  • I don't mean that you haven't noticed

  • that you're loving a particular person.

  • But you realise that everyone,

  • and the act of loving anyone is going to require many

  • of the same resources.

  • And I think that our technological Tinder-ish age has

  • deeply forgotten that lesson.

  • It is the lesson of art, you know.

  • If you think of, what are the novels of Dostoevsky,

  • but a constant attempt to take us behind the scenes.

  • I think it would look pretty disgusting at first swipe.

  • Like you wouldn't go oh [inaudible] you lovely match.

  • Or you murderer, murderer,

  • and the poignant visionary and egomaniac.

  • You wouldn't have gone on a date right?

  • But Dostoevsky takes you behind the scenes

  • and goes you know behind this profile is a human,

  • and discovers the humanity behind the profile.

  • And I worry that our age is getting every less adept

  • at that manoeuvre, but for me that manoeuvre is love.

  • Okay. Three?

  • [ Applause ]

  • >> Is there a particular model for your notion

  • of revealing your insanities to a perspective partner,

  • or is that something that you expect would just emerge

  • naturally in conversation?

  • >> No, I think it's, look I think it's very important

  • to do it at a time when your insanity has not wounded the

  • other person.

  • The reason why most of us are so unforgiving to the flaws

  • of others is because we encounter those flaws at moments

  • when they've damaged us.

  • So it's like, look I know about your father

  • and how horrible he was, or your mother

  • and how you know she didn't love you enough,

  • but frankly I don't care because right now you've ruined

  • my weekend.

  • So like I'm not really in a mood to listen to that stuff.

  • It's like I don't care that you were once a small child

  • who was you know tender, because actually frankly you just

  • destroyed my relationship with my best friend

  • out of some weird misguided feeling of jealousy

  • and I don't know where it comes from but I don't care.

  • So in other words, you are not going to be sympathetic

  • when it's damaged you.

  • So, the time to do it is when the other person feels relaxed,

  • tender, and you need to find some strategy.

  • You know the art of timing.

  • Most of the time, we are so,

  • because there's not a teaching culture

  • within relationships we feel that we've got to get our lesson

  • out at the very moment when we fell it.

  • It's like because the romantics are all about authenticity.

  • So it's like you know there's all this cult

  • of being authentic to your feelings.

  • You've got to be true to your feelings, that's the, you know.

  • I mean really?

  • You really want to be true to all your feelings.

  • Oh, that's going to be trouble.

  • It's like I think you're looking a little ugly today.

  • Oh, I just had to express that because I'm a romantic.

  • So [laughter], you know your thighs are looking a little fat,

  • but I'm a romantic so I had to tell you.

  • Jean Jacques Rousseau told me to tell you

  • that your thighs are a little fat.

  • So, that's really where I'm coming from.

  • So do it, yeah, do it when they're calm

  • and do it strategically and trying not

  • to hurt somebody with your insanity.

  • You'll find a better result.

  • Number four.

  • >> Hi. Oh, God that's loud.

  • Sorry. I just wanted to ask.

  • This is a bit of an uncomfortable question.

  • But money.

  • Is it, well, I've got to start again.

  • I'm under strict instruction I'm going to go

  • to art school next year and I'm under strict instruction

  • to not fall in love with another person who wants

  • to become an artist because I will end

  • up being poor, and sad, and lonely.

  • And I just wanted to ask the question if practical things

  • such as money, houses, towels,

  • whatever can actually really break up a relationship,

  • or if those are negotiable things?

  • >> Okay that's such a good question because it really sets

  • on top of this romantic, classical divide

  • if you like, in the view of love.

  • The last writer to talk head on about love

  • and money is Jane Austen in European fiction.

  • And her novels are obsessed with money.

  • Not at the detriment of everything else.

  • But they take a really fast steady look.

  • I mean you know the way it works with Jane Austen novels,

  • very often you'll be told that such

  • and such a character was worth 20 pounds a year

  • and you fiercely look back at the number, what was that?

  • Twenty pounds, like what does that mean?

  • That doesn't sound like very much.

  • And then someone says like worth 40 pounds,

  • and they've got an annuity and they've got,

  • like so you're totally told the financial status

  • of all the characters.

  • And this can sound quite weird because we are romantics.

  • And romantics believe, as you correctly suggest that love

  • and money have nothing to do with one another.

  • That true love has absolutely nothing to do with money.

  • That love is a feeling and money is this horrible dirty thing.

  • And Jane Austen is the last person

  • to have an intelligent sane view of money

  • because she doesn't say, there are characters in her novels,

  • in "Mansfield Park" there are these characters whose names I

  • now forget.

  • I forget her name.

  • There's one couple that gets together primarily for money,

  • because they're financially interested

  • and only financially interested.

  • And they have a terrible life.

  • And but Fanny Price, the heroine, has got,

  • she's a little bit interested in money.

  • In other words, she sensibly knows that money has got things

  • to contribute to a good relationship.

  • And she doesn't see this as a sign that she's an evil person.

  • She simply sees it as a practical recognition

  • of what money can do and what practical sides

  • of life do to emotions.

  • And you know I would recommend a Jane Austen view

  • of your dilemmas in art school.

  • In other words, it's not

  • that you're a bad person that you think of it.

  • And frankly, yes.

  • I mean you know there are plenty of extremely nice people

  • who are making a miserable dry, brittle living

  • in the financial sector who would love to infuse their soul

  • with a more artistic temperament [laughter].

  • And I would recommend you that.

  • [ Applause ]

  • Yeah?

  • >> I have a very simple question to say.

  • My question actually is how do I bring the Romanticism

  • in my marriage after being married 37 years today?

  • >> Right. Well, congratulations.

  • >> And our marriage actually was an arranged marriage according

  • to our culture, our parents chose each other for us

  • and we blindly accepted it even though we had our own personal

  • views, but we said yes because our parents said, he's stable,

  • he has his own business he will keep you safe and secure.

  • Money, money being the issue.

  • >> Yes. Well, look I think that some of the things

  • that happens is that when you love somebody.

  • You want to lay claim to them.

  • You want to own them.

  • You want to possess them.

  • But to a great extent I think we don't appreciate things

  • or people that we possess.

  • We don't appreciate what we have.

  • And I think that you know the question

  • that you're asking is not really about Romanticism,

  • it's about appreciation.

  • And I think it holds true not just

  • for relationships but for everything.

  • You know Marcel Crouse was once asked

  • by newspapers were doing silly questionnaires even then

  • and he was asked by a newspaper how he would feel if he heard

  • that a meteorite was heading for the earth

  • and would soon destroy civilisation.

  • This was like 1919.

  • And he said that it would be a marvellous thing

  • because suddenly everything in life would be so full

  • of meaning, beauty, charm.

  • He would rush to go to museums that he hadn't been to.

  • He would undertake journeys.

  • He would fall in love.

  • He would appreciate his friends.

  • All of these things.

  • And he said rather poignantly, the thing that prevents us

  • from noticing all of these things is the feeling

  • that it's forever and that we already possess them.

  • When in fact, all of us might die this evening, he says.

  • He was a hypochondriac, but a good one [laughter].

  • But I think we can take a little lesson from [inaudible] book.

  • Imagine you and your husband might die this evening.

  • That's the single most romantic,

  • this might be your last evening [laughter].

  • That's what you should do.

  • [ Applause ]

  • We've got about 14 seconds for the last question

  • so this is the last question.

  • >> I want to thank you for speaking to use tonight,

  • but also my question relates to what you spoke

  • about in the beginning, which is you said we're in an age

  • of Romanticism right now.

  • What do you think has caused the persistence of the age

  • of Romanticism, just like for centuries.

  • What do you think the next evolution is for love

  • and just in relationships?

  • >> Look I don't want to sound like one of those guys,

  • but to some extent it is to do

  • with the commercial system we live within.

  • It's so much easier when you're trying

  • to sell someone toothpaste to sell it

  • with that initial heaty ecstatic moment of love.

  • There's a huge interest in talking about that.

  • Look, it's deeply exciting.

  • The moment two people get together is one

  • of the most exciting things in the world.

  • So no wonder we keep scratching that bit of human nature.

  • It's no surprise.

  • If I was making a Hollywood moving

  • and I was spending 100 million pounds and the choice was

  • between you know a long term relationship

  • or that heaty moment, you know you go for the heaty moment.

  • I mean the only filmmaker who's ever made a sensible film

  • in the last like 10 years about marriage is Richard Linklater's

  • with his beautiful film "Before Midnight" which is

  • about the only adult description of love.

  • And it was a very small grossing movie, but please go and see it

  • if you can because it's one of the great films.

  • But you know we're surrounded by people who have a lot interest

  • in exciting us around the early moments of love.

  • But the fight back begins and it begins here.

  • And it begins with a novel I've written, and [laughter]

  • and with you listening.

  • So I encourage all you to come and see me afterwards,

  • get your book signed

  • and to begin a new way of approaching love.

  • Not in a cold way, not with cynicism or with pessimism.

  • But with a healthy belief that the best way

  • to get our relationships to go well is to overcome certain

  • of our romantic illusions.

  • Thank you so much.

  • [ Applause ]

[ Applause ]

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Alain de Botton: On Love | Digital Season

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    Lynn に公開 2021 年 06 月 18 日
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