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Everybody talks about happiness these days.
翻訳: Takako Sato 校正: Natsuhiko Mizutani
I had somebody count the number of books
最近 幸福について話す人が多いですね
with "happiness" in the title published in the last five years
過去5年に出版され タイトルに“幸福”が
and they gave up after about 40, and there were many more.
入っている本を ある人に数えてもらったところ
There is a huge wave of interest in happiness,
あまりの量で 40冊ほどで諦めてしまいました
among researchers.
研究者たちの幸福に対する興味の高まりは
There is a lot of happiness coaching.
かなりのものです
Everybody would like to make people happier.
幸福のコーチングもたくさん行われ
But in spite of all this flood of work,
皆に幸福になってもらいたいことがわかります
there are several cognitive traps
しかし そのような努力があるにも関わらず
that sort of make it almost impossible to think straight
幸福について 明瞭に考えることを
about happiness.
ほぼ不可能にしてしまう認知の罠が
And my talk today will be mostly about these cognitive traps.
幾つかあります
This applies to laypeople thinking about their own happiness,
今日は この認知の罠を取り上げます
and it applies to scholars thinking about happiness,
これは自らの幸福を願う一般の人にも
because it turns out we're just as messed up as anybody else is.
幸福を追究する学者にも当てはまります
The first of these traps
なぜなら 誰もが混乱した状態にいるからです
is a reluctance to admit complexity.
罠の一つは
It turns out that the word "happiness"
複雑さを認めることへの抵抗感にあります
is just not a useful word anymore,
幸福という言葉は もはや役立つ言葉ではない―
because we apply it to too many different things.
という事が明らかになりました
I think there is one particular meaning to which we might restrict it,
この言葉を様々な事に あてはめすぎるからです
but by and large,
この言葉には 特定の意味合いがありますが
this is something that we'll have to give up
概して 狭い意味に
and we'll have to adopt the more complicated view
限定することは諦めて
of what well-being is.
幸福な状態とは何か もっと複雑な見方を
The second trap is a confusion between experience and memory;
しなくてはいけないのです
basically, it's between being happy in your life,
二つめの罠は 体験と記憶を混同してしまうことです
and being happy about your life
生活の中で見いだす幸福と
or happy with your life.
自分の人生の幸福度合い
And those are two very different concepts,
この違いです
and they're both lumped in the notion of happiness.
この二つは非常に異なる概念ですが
And the third is the focusing illusion,
どちらも幸福という一つの観念にまとめられがちです
and it's the unfortunate fact that we can't think about any circumstance
三つめは錯覚に焦点を置くこと
that affects well-being
幸福の状態を左右する状況を
without distorting its importance.
ゆがめて考えてしまうのは
I mean, this is a real cognitive trap.
残念なことです
There's just no way of getting it right.
これは まさに認知の罠です
Now, I'd like to start with an example
正確に理解する方法が無いのです
of somebody who had a question-and-answer session
例を出してみましょう
after one of my lectures reported a story,
私の講義の後におこなった質疑応答で
and that was a story --
ある方がこんな話をしました
He said he'd been listening to a symphony,
彼は交響曲を聴いていて
and it was absolutely glorious music
その音楽に聞き惚れていたところ
and at the very end of the recording,
その曲の終わりに
there was a dreadful screeching sound.
耳をつんざく音が入っていました
And then he added, really quite emotionally,
彼はかなり感情的に
it ruined the whole experience.
曲が台無しになった と言いました
But it hadn't.
でも 台無しになったのは
What it had ruined were the memories of the experience.
曲ではなく その経験の記憶です
He had had the experience.
彼は素晴らしい曲を
He had had 20 minutes of glorious music.
20分聴いていたのに
They counted for nothing
その価値がなくなったのは
because he was left with a memory;
台無しになった記憶が
the memory was ruined,
残ったからです
and the memory was all that he had gotten to keep.
彼に残ったのは記憶しかありません
What this is telling us, really,
この話から 我々が
is that we might be thinking of ourselves and of other people
自らを二つの自己として
in terms of two selves.
考えているらしいとわかります
There is an experiencing self,
経験の自己―
who lives in the present
これは 現在を生き
and knows the present,
現在を経験し
is capable of re-living the past,
過去にも戻れる自己です
but basically it has only the present.
でも基本的には現在しかありません
It's the experiencing self that the doctor approaches --
例えば 医師が “ここを触ったら痛みますか?” と
you know, when the doctor asks,
尋ねる相手は
"Does it hurt now when I touch you here?"
経験の自己です
And then there is a remembering self,
そして 記憶の自己というのがあります
and the remembering self is the one that keeps score,
記憶の自己とは 記録を残し
and maintains the story of our life,
人生の物語を紡ぎます
and it's the one that the doctor approaches
医師が尋ねる質問を
in asking the question,
例に出すと
"How have you been feeling lately?"
“最近の調子はどうですか?”
or "How was your trip to Albania?" or something like that.
“旅行はいかがでしたか?” なんて質問です
Those are two very different entities,
この二つは まったく異なるもので
the experiencing self and the remembering self,
“経験の自己”と“記憶の自己”を
and getting confused between them is part of the mess
混同してしまうのは 幸福の観念に見られる
about the notion of happiness.
混乱なのです
Now, the remembering self
記憶の自己は
is a storyteller.
語り手です
And that really starts with a basic response of our memories --
我々の記憶の基本的な反応で
it starts immediately.
すぐに動き出します
We don't only tell stories when we set out to tell stories.
話をするとき 我々が単純に語っているのではなく
Our memory tells us stories,
記憶が物語るのです
that is, what we get to keep from our experiences
要は経験から 引き継がれたものが
is a story.
話になるのです
And let me begin with one example.
その一例を挙げてみます
This is an old study.
昔行われた研究で
Those are actual patients undergoing a painful procedure.
大腸内視鏡検査を受けた実際の患者から得たデータです
I won't go into detail. It's no longer painful these days,
この検査は今となっては痛みを伴いませんが
but it was painful when this study was run in the 1990s.
研究が行われた90年代には痛みを伴う検査でした
They were asked to report on their pain every 60 seconds.
患者は60秒ごとに 痛みの度合いを報告するように言われ
Here are two patients,
これは二人の患者と
those are their recordings.
彼らの痛みを記録したものです
And you are asked, "Who of them suffered more?"
この二人のうち より苦しんだのは
And it's a very easy question.
どちらかと聞かれたら
Clearly, Patient B suffered more --
明らかに それは患者Bですね
his colonoscopy was longer,
彼の検査時間のほうが長く
and every minute of pain that Patient A had,
患者Aが毎分感じた痛み以上に
Patient B had, and more.
患者Bは痛みを感じました
But now there is another question:
さて 別の質問をします
"How much did these patients think they suffered?"
患者自身に どれだけ苦しんだと思うかと尋ねると
And here is a surprise.
驚くことに
The surprise is that Patient A
患者Bよりも
had a much worse memory of the colonoscopy
患者Aのほうが より嫌な記憶として
than Patient B.
覚えていたのです
The stories of the colonoscopies were different,
二人の検査の話は異なっていました
and because a very critical part of the story is how it ends.
なぜなら その話の一番重要な部分は 検査の終わり方なのです
And neither of these stories is very inspiring or great --
どちらの話も 心を打たれるような内容ではありませんが
but one of them is this distinct ... (Laughter)
一方は もう片方よりも
but one of them is distinctly worse than the other.
明らかに悲惨なものなのです
And the one that is worse
より嫌な記憶として語られた方は
is the one where pain was at its peak at the very end;
まさに終わるときに痛みがピークを迎えていました
it's a bad story.
本当に悲惨なものです
How do we know that?
対象となった患者には
Because we asked these people after their colonoscopy,
検査後と かなり時間が経ってから
and much later, too,
インタビューしました
"How bad was the whole thing, in total?"
検査全体の印象を評価してもらうと
And it was much worse for A than for B, in memory.
患者Bよりも 患者Aが より大変だったと答えました
Now this is a direct conflict
これは経験の自己と
between the experiencing self and the remembering self.
記憶の自己の間で起こる はっきりとした矛盾です
From the point of view of the experiencing self,
経験の自己の視点で見ると
clearly, B had a worse time.
患者Bのほうが大変だったのは明らかです
Now, what you could do with Patient A,
患者Aにどうすべきだったか
and we actually ran clinical experiments,
実際に行った臨床実験で
and it has been done, and it does work --
効果が確かめられているのですが
you could actually extend the colonoscopy of Patient A
患者Aのチューブをそれほど動かさず
by just keeping the tube in without jiggling it too much.
大腸内視鏡検査を長引かせます
That will cause the patient
そうすることで患者は痛みを感じますが
to suffer, but just a little
その痛みは ほんの少しで
and much less than before.
それまでに比べて 痛みは激減します
And if you do that for a couple of minutes,
これを数分やれば
you have made the experiencing self
患者Aの経験の自己には
of Patient A worse off,
つらい思いをさせますが
and you have the remembering self of Patient A
記憶の自己には
a lot better off,
ずっとましな処置です
because now you have endowed Patient A
なぜなら 患者Aに与えた
with a better story
経験の物語は
about his experience.
ましなものになっているからです
What defines a story?
物語を形作るのは何でしょう
And that is true of the stories
これは記憶を通して
that memory delivers for us,
我々が思い出す話や
and it's also true of the stories that we make up.
我々が作り上げる話にも共通したことです
What defines a story are changes,
話を明確にするものは 変化であり
significant moments and endings.
決定的な瞬間であり 結末なのです
Endings are very, very important
結末は非常に重要な役割を果たしていて
and, in this case, the ending dominated.
この患者のケースでは検査の締めくくりが左右したのです
Now, the experiencing self
さて 経験の自己の
lives its life continuously.
人生には切れ目もなく
It has moments of experience, one after the other.
どんな瞬間でも 次から次へと経験をしています
And you can ask: What happens to these moments?
“この瞬間”の行方を問うと
And the answer is really straightforward:
答えは非常に簡単で
They are lost forever.
永久に失われます
I mean, most of the moments of our life --
人生における時間の大半です
and I calculated, you know, the psychological present
心理的現在は 約3秒だと
is said to be about three seconds long;
言われており
that means that, you know,
その3秒は
in a life there are about 600 million of them;
人生で約6億回
in a month, there are about 600,000 --
月に約60万回もある計算になりますが
most of them don't leave a trace.
ほとんどが形跡を残しません
Most of them are completely ignored
ほとんどが記憶の自己に
by the remembering self.
無視されてしまいます
And yet, somehow you get the sense
それでもどういうわけか
that they should count,
今この瞬間には価値があり
that what happens during these moments of experience
そこで起きている事こそが
is our life.
人生であると感じるのです
It's the finite resource that we're spending
我々が生きる間に体験できる―
while we're on this earth.
限られたものであり
And how to spend it
人生をいかに過ごすかということが
would seem to be relevant,
価値を持つように感じますが
but that is not the story
これは記憶の自己が
that the remembering self keeps for us.
残す話とは違うのです
So we have the remembering self
記憶の自己と
and the experiencing self,
経験の自己とは
and they're really quite distinct.
まったく別物なのです
The biggest difference between them
一番の違いは
is in the handling of time.
時間の扱い方です
From the point of view of the experiencing self,
経験の自己の視点で見てみましょう
if you have a vacation,
休暇に出かけるとします
and the second week is just as good as the first,
1週目も2週目も 同じくらい楽しければ
then the two-week vacation
2週間の休暇の充足感は
is twice as good as the one-week vacation.
1週間の休暇の2倍です
That's not the way it works at all for the remembering self.
記憶の自己はこのようには働きません
For the remembering self, a two-week vacation
2週間の休暇は
is barely better than the one-week vacation
1週間の休暇と さほど変わらないのです
because there are no new memories added.
なぜなら新しく加わる記憶はなく
You have not changed the story.
話自体を変化させる事がないからです
And in this way,
このように
time is actually the critical variable
時間は記憶の自己と
that distinguishes a remembering self
経験の自己を区別する―
from an experiencing self;
重要なポイントです
time has very little impact on the story.
この休暇の例に 時間はあまり影響力はありません
Now, the remembering self does more
記憶の自己は 話を記憶し 語ること以上の
than remember and tell stories.
働きがあります
It is actually the one that makes decisions
実際に 決断をするのは記憶の自己です
because, if you have a patient who has had, say,
例えば 大腸内視鏡検査を2回
two colonoscopies with two different surgeons
二人の医師から受けた患者に
and is deciding which of them to choose,
どちらかの医師を選んでもらうとすると
then the one that chooses
その患者は
is the one that has the memory that is less bad,
記憶の中で ましだった方の
and that's the surgeon that will be chosen.
医師を選びます
The experiencing self
この選択をする際
has no voice in this choice.
経験の自己は関わっていません
We actually don't choose between experiences,
通常 我々は経験から選ぶ事はせず
we choose between memories of experiences.
記憶から選び出します
And even when we think about the future,
未来のことを考える時でさえ
we don't think of our future normally as experiences.
経験として考える事は 普通ありません
We think of our future
先を見越した記憶として
as anticipated memories.
未来を見ています
And basically you can look at this,
これは記憶の自己による
you know, as a tyranny of the remembering self,
専制政治と考えてください
and you can think of the remembering self
記憶の自己が決めて
sort of dragging the experiencing self
経験の自己に対して
through experiences that
望んでいたわけでもない事も
the experiencing self doesn't need.
経験させるのです
I have that sense that
私が感じるのは
when we go on vacations
我々が休暇に出かけるのは
this is very frequently the case;
―大半のケースに言えますが―
that is, we go on vacations,
休暇とは
to a very large extent,
記憶の自己のために
in the service of our remembering self.
行くものだという気がします
And this is a bit hard to justify I think.
これを正当化するのは少し難しいのですが
I mean, how much do we consume our memories?
我々は記憶をどれだけ思い返すでしょうか?
That is one of the explanations
これは 記憶の自己が
that is given for the dominance
支配している―
of the remembering self.
説明の一つです
And when I think about that, I think about a vacation
この事を考える時
we had in Antarctica a few years ago,
数年前の南極旅行を思い出します
which was clearly the best vacation I've ever had,
それは今までで最高と言える旅行で
and I think of it relatively often,
その他の旅行に比べて
relative to how much I think of other vacations.
思い出す回数も多いのです
And I probably have consumed
その3週間の旅行を
my memories of that three-week trip, I would say,
過去4年のうちに思い出したのは
for about 25 minutes in the last four years.
25分程度でしょう
Now, if I had ever opened the folder
もしも 600枚の写真を
with the 600 pictures in it,
見返したとしたら
I would have spent another hour.
1時間追加されるくらいです
Now, that is three weeks,
3週間の旅行に対し
and that is at most an hour and a half.
せいぜい1時間半の記憶なので
There seems to be a discrepancy.
何となく不釣り合いです
Now, I may be a bit extreme, you know,
私は平均的な人ほど
in how little appetite I have for consuming memories,
記憶を思い返すことをしないのかもしれませんが
but even if you do more of this,
もっと頻繁に記憶にアクセスしたとしても
there is a genuine question:
真の疑問が残ります
Why do we put so much weight on memory
なぜ経験と比べて
relative to the weight that we put on experiences?
記憶に重きを置くのでしょうか?
So I want you to think
ここで
about a thought experiment.
ある思考実験をしてみましょう
Imagine that for your next vacation,
皆さんの次の休暇で
you know that at the end of the vacation
休暇の最後になって
all your pictures will be destroyed,
全ての写真が削除されるとします
and you'll get an amnesic drug
皆さんは記憶喪失の薬を飲まされ
so that you won't remember anything.
旅行の記憶はゼロになります
Now, would you choose the same vacation? (Laughter)
それでも その休暇を選ぶでしょうか? (笑)
And if you would choose a different vacation,
もし別の休暇にするならば
there is a conflict between your two selves,
二つの自己が対立しているので
and you need to think about how to adjudicate that conflict,
その対立をどのように解決するか考える必要がありますが
and it's actually not at all obvious, because
実際のところ わかりづらいんです
if you think in terms of time,
時間を優先すれば
then you get one answer,
ある答えが出てくるでしょうし
and if you think in terms of memories,
記憶を優先すれば
you might get another answer.
別の答えが出てくるかもしれません
Why do we pick the vacations we do
なぜ その休暇を選んでいるかという―
is a problem that confronts us
二つの自己の間にある選択肢は
with a choice between the two selves.
我々が直面する問題です
Now, the two selves
二つの自己は 二つの
bring up two notions of happiness.
幸福の観念をもたらします
There are really two concepts of happiness
二つの自己に対して適用できる―
that we can apply, one per self.
幸福の観念がひとつずつあるのです
So you can ask: How happy is the experiencing self?
そこで出てくる質問は “経験の自己はどれだけ幸せなのか?”
And then you would ask: How happy are the moments
そして “経験の自己の人生において
in the experiencing self's life?
どれだけ幸せを感じているのか?”
And they're all -- happiness for moments
幸福に感じる瞬間とは
is a fairly complicated process.
非常に複雑なプロセスです
What are the emotions that can be measured?
測定できる感情とは何でしょうか?
And, by the way, now we are capable
経験の自己が感じる幸福と
of getting a pretty good idea
時間の関係性は
of the happiness of the experiencing self over time.
わかっていただけたと思います
If you ask for the happiness of the remembering self,
もし 記憶の自己の幸福を尋ねるとしたら
it's a completely different thing.
それはまた別物です
This is not about how happily a person lives.
これは ある人がどれだけ幸せに暮らしているか ということではなく
It is about how satisfied or pleased the person is
その人が自分の人生を考えたときに
when that person thinks about her life.
どれだけ満足しているか ということです
Very different notion.
かなり違う観念ですね
Anyone who doesn't distinguish those notions
この観念の違いがわからなければ
is going to mess up the study of happiness,
幸福の研究はうまくいきません
and I belong to a crowd of students of well-being,
私は まさにこんな感じに
who've been messing up the study of happiness for a long time
長い間 幸福の研究がうまくいかずにいる―
in precisely this way.
学者の1人です
The distinction between the
経験の自己の幸福と
happiness of the experiencing self
記憶の自己の満足感が
and the satisfaction of the remembering self
違うという事実は
has been recognized in recent years,
近年 気づかれるようになってきました
and there are now efforts to measure the two separately.
現在では 二つを隔てて測る努力もされています
The Gallup Organization has a world poll
ギャラップは 50万人を対象に
where more than half a million people
世界中で世論調査を行い
have been asked questions
自分の人生と経験を
about what they think of their life
どう思っているか
and about their experiences,
アンケートを行いました
and there have been other efforts along those lines.
そして それに沿った形で 他の調査も進んできました
So in recent years, we have begun to learn
近年では 二つの自己に絡んだ幸福に関して
about the happiness of the two selves.
解明し始めたところです
And the main lesson I think that we have learned
我々が学んだ主なことは
is they are really different.
二つがまったく別物だということです
You can know how satisfied somebody is with their life,
ある人の人生の満足度を測る事はできても
and that really doesn't teach you much
そこから その人が
about how happily they're living their life,
どれだけ人生を幸せに過ごしているかはわかりません
and vice versa.
反対のことも言えます
Just to give you a sense of the correlation,
その相関性を示してみます
the correlation is about .5.
相関性は約0.5です
What that means is if you met somebody,
例えば 父の身長が180cmだと
and you were told, "Oh his father is six feet tall,"
ある人が言ったとしても
how much would you know about his height?
彼自身の身長に関しては何もわかりませんね
Well, you would know something about his height,
多少の目安にはなりますが
but there's a lot of uncertainty.
はっきりしたことはわかりません
You have that much uncertainty.
それくらい不確かだと思ってください
If I tell you that somebody ranked their life eight on a scale of ten,
ある人が 自分の人生は10点満点中8点だと言ったとしても
you have a lot of uncertainty
どれだけ経験の自己が
about how happy they are
幸せなのか
with their experiencing self.
推しはかることはできません
So the correlation is low.
ですから相関関係は低いのです
We know something about what controls
幸福に対する満足度を支配する要素は
satisfaction of the happiness self.
わかっています
We know that money is very important,
お金は大切ですし
goals are very important.
目標も大切
We know that happiness is mainly
幸福とは主に 好きな人と共に
being satisfied with people that we like,
満足することであり
spending time with people that we like.
好きな人と時間を過ごすことです
There are other pleasures, but this is dominant.
他にも考えられますが これが支配的です
So if you want to maximize the happiness of the two selves,
ですから 二つの自己の幸福度を強めたい場合は
you are going to end up
まったく異なる事柄を
doing very different things.
する事になるでしょう
The bottom line of what I've said here
要は
is that we really should not think of happiness
幸福は心身ともに健全でいることと
as a substitute for well-being.
同じ事だと考えるべきではないのです
It is a completely different notion.
二つはまったく違った観念です
Now, very quickly,
ここで手短に説明しますが
another reason we cannot think straight about happiness
幸福を考える時 これほど複雑化する もう1つの理由は
is that we do not attend to the same things
人生に関して考えるときと 実際に生きている日々とでは
when we think about life, and we actually live.
我々は同じことに注目していないということです
So, if you ask the simple question of how happy people are in California,
ですから カリフォルニアの人たちに幸せの度合いを尋ねても
you are not going to get to the correct answer.
正しい答えは得られません
When you ask that question,
その質問を他の人にすると
you think people must be happier in California
カリフォルニアのほうが幸せなはずだと思うのです
if, say, you live in Ohio.
例えばオハイオの人なんかね
(Laughter)
(笑)
And what happens is
ここで起きるのは
when you think about living in California,
カリフォルニアで暮らす事を考える時
you are thinking of the contrast
カリフォルニアと別の場所を
between California and other places,
対比させて考える ということです
and that contrast, say, is in climate.
例えば 気候の違いです
Well, it turns out that climate
実は 気候というのは
is not very important to the experiencing self
経験の自己には重要ではなく
and it's not even very important to the reflective self
人がどれだけ幸せなのかを決める―
that decides how happy people are.
記憶の自己にも それほど重要ではありません
But now, because the reflective self is in charge,
しかし 記憶の自己がつかさどっているので
you may end up -- some people may end up
中には カリフォルニアへ
moving to California.
引っ越す人が出るのです
And it's sort of interesting to trace what is going to happen
幸せになるだろうと期待してカリフォルニアへ
to people who move to California in the hope of getting happier.
移り住む人たちに何が起こるのか 追跡するのは興味深いんです
Well, their experiencing self
経験の自己が
is not going to get happier.
一層幸せになる事はありません
We know that.
本当です
But one thing will happen: They will think they are happier,
でも確実に言えるのは 彼らがもっと幸せだと思うようになる事です
because, when they think about it,
なぜなら 彼らはオハイオの天気が
they'll be reminded of how horrible the weather was in Ohio,
どれだけ悪かったか思い出し
and they will feel they made the right decision.
正しい決断をしたと感じるからです
It is very difficult
心身ともに健全でいることを
to think straight about well-being,
事実どおりに考えるのは非常に難しいのです
and I hope I have given you a sense
どれだけ難しいことなのか
of how difficult it is.
わかってもらえたでしょうか
Thank you.
ありがとう
(Applause)
(拍手)
Chris Anderson: Thank you. I've got a question for you.
ありがとう 質問があります
Thank you so much.
どうもありがとう
Now, when we were on the phone a few weeks ago,
数週間前に電話でお話しした時
you mentioned to me that there was quite an interesting result
世論調査で浮かび上がった非常に興味深い
came out of that Gallup survey.
結果を教えてくれましたね
Is that something you can share
時間があるので
since you do have a few moments left now?
お話してくれませんか
Daniel Kahneman: Sure.
もちろんです
I think the most interesting result that we found in the Gallup survey
世論調査で明らかになった最も興味深いことは
is a number, which we absolutely did not expect to find.
予想もしていなかった数値が浮かび上がったことです
We found that with respect to the happiness
経験の自己から見る幸福に関し
of the experiencing self.
分かったのは
When we looked at how feelings,
我々の感情は 収入と密接に
vary with income.
関わっていることです
And it turns out that, below an income
ここで明らかになったのは
of 60,000 dollars a year, for Americans --
アメリカ人にとって 年収6万ドル以下は
and that's a very large sample of Americans, like 600,000,
60万人から聞き出した調査なので
so it's a large representative sample --
典型的なサンプルですが
below an income of 600,000 dollars a year...
年収60万ドル以下だと…
CA: 60,000.
6万ドルですね?
DK: 60,000.
そうそう 6万ドル
(Laughter)
(笑)
60,000 dollars a year, people are unhappy,
年収6万ドル以下だと 惨めさを感じ
and they get progressively unhappier the poorer they get.
金額が下がるほど その度合いは増します
Above that, we get an absolutely flat line.
6万ドル以上の場合は変化はありません
I mean I've rarely seen lines so flat.
そこまで平らな線が出るのも珍しいのです
Clearly, what is happening is
明らかに ここで言える事は
money does not buy you experiential happiness,
経験的な幸福をお金で買うことはできませんが
but lack of money certainly buys you misery,
お金がないのと 惨めな思いをするということです
and we can measure that misery
その惨めさをはっきりと
very, very clearly.
測ることもできます
In terms of the other self, the remembering self,
記憶の自己からみると
you get a different story.
違う内容になります
The more money you earn, the more satisfied you are.
お金を儲けるほど 満足感は増す
That does not hold for emotions.
これに感情は関与しません
CA: But Danny, the whole American endeavor is about
でもアメリカ人が頑張るのも
life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness.
生活 自由 幸福の追求のためですよね?
If people took seriously that finding,
もし 皆がその調査結果を真剣に受け止めたら
I mean, it seems to turn upside down
私たちが信じる全てを
everything we believe about, like for example,
180度転換するような感じがします
taxation policy and so forth.
例えば 税制に関してとか…
Is there any chance that politicians, that the country generally,
政治家が この調査結果を真剣に受け止めて
would take a finding like that seriously
この基盤に基づいて公共政策を動かす事は
and run public policy based on it?
今後あるでしょうか?
DK: You know I think that there is recognition
公共政策の中で
of the role of happiness research in public policy.
幸福の研究も 位置づけられていると思います
The recognition is going to be slow in the United States,
アメリカでの認知度向上には
no question about that,
間違いなく 時間がかかるでしょう
but in the U.K., it is happening,
イギリスや他国では
and in other countries it is happening.
認知度が高まっていて
People are recognizing that they ought
公共政策を考える際
to be thinking of happiness
幸福を視野に入れる必要性が
when they think of public policy.
考慮されています
It's going to take a while,
時間はかかりますし
and people are going to debate
幸福の経験の研究や
whether they want to study experience happiness,
生活の評価の研究に関して
or whether they want to study life evaluation,
議論がなされるでしょう
so we need to have that debate fairly soon.
その議論も近々必要ですね
How to enhance happiness
幸福の高め方は
goes very different ways depending on how you think,
その人の考え方によって異なりますし
and whether you think of the remembering self
記憶の自己や経験の自己のどちらを
or you think of the experiencing self.
考えるかによっても異なります
This is going to influence policy, I think, in years to come.
これは今後 政策に影響するでしょう
In the United States, efforts are being made
アメリカでは 全国民の経験的な幸福を
to measure the experience happiness of the population.
測る努力がされています
This is going to be, I think, within the next decade or two,
今後10~20年以内に これは国家統計の
part of national statistics.
一部になると思います
CA: Well, it seems to me that this issue will -- or at least should be --
この問題は 今後数年の間
the most interesting policy discussion to track
一番興味深い政策論議に
over the next few years.
なりそうですね
Thank you so much for inventing behavioral economics.
行動経済学を生み出してくれて ありがとう
Thank you, Danny Kahneman.
どうもありがとう