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  • You can change the world to meet your values when

  • you are in government.

  • You can't when you are in opposition.

  • Getting into government has to be the first and sole purpose

  • of any political party.

  • I was there in the 1980s when the hard left held a dominant

  • position in the Labour party.

  • When Labour had 18, 19 years of continuous opposition.

  • And I learned the hard way really,

  • that extreme left politics just didn't connect to the voters.

  • But I was also there in 1997 and through the years

  • of the Blair-Brown governments.

  • When I saw what impact one could have when we

  • controlled the levers of power.

  • I am virtually the last Jewish woman Labour MPs left standing.

  • If we don't learn the lessons of why we have

  • lost the 2019 election.

  • If we allow the heir to Corbyn to be Rebecca Long-Bailey...

  • Did you stand up at any point, and call it out?

  • I did, but was that enough?

  • No.

  • It wasn't.

  • The idea that we will ever get a Labour government,

  • certainly in my lifetime, will disappear.

  • I mean, if I had a majority of 80 Margaret, just think...

  • ...even just one thing, you'd be like giddy.

  • Like a child in a sweet shop.

  • The last four years, we have to be honest with people,

  • it's been a fucking disaster for the Labour party.

  • The last thing I want is more, more Corbyn.

  • You said last time you wanted to win, didn't you?

  • I've known Corbyn since '82.

  • If there's one thing he really believes in,

  • it's all that massive world view, which

  • is hostile to Nato, hostile to the States,

  • leads to the anti-Semitism.

  • Rebecca.

  • We're going to take .... once Adrian's finished.

  • I didn't break rank and tell people

  • what's going on in the shadow cabinet,

  • on this or anything else, because I

  • don't think you should.

  • I consider my position in the Labour party,

  • over the last few years, to be honest...

  • I put myself forward, for frankly,

  • the worst job in the world, which is being leader

  • of the Labour party when we're in opposition.

  • For me, I'm going for Jess Phillips.

  • When I've seen the others against her,

  • a lot of sort of traditional politicians.

  • We need someone who can stand opposite Boris Johnson,

  • and wear his government in his face.

  • The Labour leadership race is narrowing from 5 to 4.

  • This time, that person isn't me.

  • Oh.

  • So, Jess was due to come and speak at the event.

  • Yeah.

  • But she's gone back to Birmingham, so she can't.

  • Yeah.

  • We've sent her some flowers.

  • What could have been?

  • Oh goodness, that is really hard.

  • I mean, I watched Jess's video, and it's really moving,

  • and I wanted to cry when I watched that for I think,

  • what the Labour party's lost.

  • But I'm a sort of, you know, I'm an old, old fighter,

  • that's the real truth.

  • So I'm going to carry on fighting.

  • And I just want to see what the other candidates,

  • there's three of them really, that I'm looking at.

  • Who can fill the void that Jess's departure has created.

  • When I've seen the others against a lot of the most

  • sort of traditional politicians, men in suits quite often.

  • He's triangulating like mad.

  • Somebody said to me, I don't mind

  • what he does as long as he wins, beats Rebecca Long-Bailey.

  • And I thought you know, Tony never did that.

  • Tony was completely straight, completely honest.

  • It's a different way of doing your politics.

  • So is Keir lying to get the job?

  • And will he then change?

  • That's what this person was saying to me

  • as a way of promoting Keir.

  • I mean that's...

  • so I know.

  • So it's sort of, in a way, you then think, um.

  • Right.

  • Who's not got their seat belt on?

  • Those people who chose to join Momentum,

  • I think probably a lot have left now,

  • are young idealists for whom at the time

  • Corbyn was a message of hope.

  • They are the ones who don't like the politics,

  • don't like the anti-Semitism, and don't

  • like the anti-Europeanism.

  • You'll start to see this in who's nominating Keir Starmer.

  • You know, Momentum is cracking up, it's sort of you know,

  • the old Trots will all go for Rebecca.

  • As will the out-of-date, fat bellied, beer bellied,

  • trade union barons.

  • I don't know where's Owen.

  • Is Owen pro-European?

  • Probably he is, actually.

  • I am cross because he is 40 minutes late.

  • You know, everybody's busy, and you just -

  • if you busy people make me busy people,

  • don't piss him off for being late.

  • Anyway, we are where we are.

  • Why do I talk to him?

  • Because Owen is a Corbyn supporter,

  • and also he's been a pretty consistent critic

  • of the Blair-Brown years, actually of Labour in power

  • and in government, and I want to challenge him a little bit

  • on that too.

  • You are very late.

  • I've been in the Labour party for a very long time.

  • Longer than I've been alive.

  • Indeed.

  • So I remember the 80s, which you know were very uncomfortable.

  • Where you used to go along to Labour party meetings

  • and if you dare to put up your hand on something you believed

  • in - all you were doing was following your values,

  • which may be different, there was intolerance of it.

  • People would shout abuse at you.

  • I had bricks thrown at me during discussions

  • on cuts in local government.

  • I did.

  • I've had death threats.

  • I've had it all my life, and I got it from the left then.

  • The Labour party then went through,

  • under the Blair-Brown years, which you like to dismiss.

  • I don't dismiss.

  • That's not true.

  • OK.

  • The Labour party went...

  • I was a Labour member under Blair and Brown.

  • Brilliant.

  • Well, I'm really pleased.

  • So it went through a really tolerant period,

  • when you could get up and you could dissent within the party.

  • That wasn't my experience at the time, by the way.

  • It was the experience for the victors, but - no,

  • anyone to the left...

  • You wouldn't have been shouted at.

  • Trots.

  • All the time.

  • Used a catch-all term for anyone vaguely on the left.

  • All the time.

  • OK, that was not my experience.

  • There was a much more open discourse.

  • But it's not...

  • because you were on the winning side.

  • No.

  • Of course you didn't get...

  • No, I just...

  • You'd won.

  • Your side won and the left fell ostracised and besieged.

  • Well, can I just say, this left-right really irritates me.

  • Really irritateS, it does irritate me.

  • Because you know, here you are...

  • There's a left and right flank of the Labour party.

  • That's just...

  • I mean, people on the...

  • Yeah, but I do not understand what it means.

  • Because I think your definition of left,

  • which is around big state, nationalisation...

  • Democratic.

  • Democratic ...

  • No, it was...

  • you're joking.

  • No, I'm not joking.

  • I've just been through reselection, Owen, OK?

  • Right.

  • In my party.

  • The whole triggering of that process was by the few,

  • to defeat the will of the many.

  • So all this stuff about we're fantastic, democratic.

  • The Labour party now is the most...