This is the issue that you're in.

Your name is on the cover, and I'm going to show the audience the pictures.

Cindy started out doing the cover.

This is August 1986 with Richard Avedon.

The thing that I loved about those avenue uncovers is they were just all about the face.

It's very different when you're using a fast camera when you're using a slow cameras kind of like you have toe, you know, find that moment.

And I remember one of the things he taught me, which I have shared with Kaya, is like, have a thought.

Every time you look at that camera lens, make sure you have a thought, he goes, I don't need to know what what it ISS but don't have, like a blank expression.

So if we just start out about the kind of the very basic dynamic of where you both approached the industry, you know, we were talking about this the other day that you know, I'm from the Midwest.

I started modeling and you know, Chicago doing catalog belt modeling once where my face wasn't even in the picture.

And, um, you know, when I finally got to New York, I didn't know anything about anything.

I just came to New York.

I didn't know how to catch a cab.

I didn't know the light had to be on.

I wondered why some cab stopped and some didn't.

And then I was like, Oh, the light has to be on.

But no one told me that my mother didn't wear any makeup.

I just didn't know anything about in a point of reference.

Yeah, but talk about a point of reference.

Yeah.

I mean, if anyone had a point of reference, I think I definitely did.

So for me, it wasn't a foreign world to go into.

I definitely felt like I understood it.

I knew what I was kind of getting into.

I had been around it a lot.

I definitely think there are some things that no matter how much somebody can tell you about, you know, the industry, there were a lot of things you do have to learn firsthand.

So for me, it was it was definitely less scary to go into, Um I have so much appreciation for women like my mom and the other girls who come, you know, they don't know anything.

A lot of the times they're not even English isn't even their first language.

So for me, I definitely had a unique experience going into the industry.

And I think one of the things that that I did and Kaya certainly has done it has more excess is like when you goto work with a photographer.

A designer is like, do your homework and under, so that because I want to have a language like I know this photographer shoots this way when I get to set, I kind of already know what language we might be speaking that day, as opposed to just walking in and not knowing anything about the editor or the designer or the photographer.

And I know already.

By the time Kaya started in the fashion industry, she was pretty well versed.

She I mean, she teaches me stuff all the time designers and young photographers and just, you know, being prepared, which is good advice for any job, by the way.

But it also applies that brings us up to it.

Very curious thing that really is a dynamic that is happening now, which is social media.

And that is really a definitive change for you, don't you say?

Absolutely.

And that was something that my mom couldn't really teach me.

You know, we were learning it together, especially starting in an industry that was so heavily influenced by social media when you know that don't exist when she was doing it.

And I think you know, it's benefited models and the industry as it has a hole in a lot of ways, I feel like we've become a lot more accessible.

Um, you know, But when I see images of my mom from when she was modeling, it was very selective.

You know, you're seeing her on the cover of Vogue, and that's it.

And so I think it allowed for people toe have this kind of fantasy or fascination with models at the time because you weren't seeing them every single day you were seeing them shot by these incredible photographers of the whole team of people.

And, you know, now, as models, you see us from the second we wake up until we go to sleep and you're not just seeing us all done up which I think is really nice to realize.

You know, you're not always looking like you look on the cover of Vogue, but it also takes away a bit of that kind of magic and almost suspense for what's gonna come out next.

I don't think my generation grew up wanting to be models like you didn't even really think that it was a real job.

And then it was like the supermodel moment.

And then I really think like when I look back on, it was like America's next top model, like Tyra Banks made everyone believe, like all of a sudden, you too, can be a model.

And then and then social media happened right after that, and it was like everyone not only could be a model, they were a model in their everyday life.

I mean, there isn't a 12 year old that doesn't know how to take a great selfie and how to retouch it perfectly.

And so when people would say like, Well, how could you let Kaya start modeling?

So every every young person is modeling in their own life.

What I miss about like the old days, like without sounding like my mother Good old days.

Is that when when you're shooting with film and there was no monitor, all the attention was on the set on the model.

So there was an aspect that you were performing in front of the hair, the makeup, the stylist, like everyone's eyes were on you.

And when you're receiving that, you put it on you, you perform.

And then all of a sudden, and I think really the first person that I that I knew that was really using digital in A with Michael Thompson.

And all of a sudden everyone was hovered around the monitor and no, like I'd be standing on set like guy.

I'm over here hell alone.

And and so that was a big shift for me.

Now for Kaya.

She grew up with digital.

It's rare that you shoot on film, you know, now there you already see the cover laid out on set in front and retouched.

There's and retouch they'll be retouching in front of you and I think okay, but I think you know, it's it's cool to have that immediate like you can see it and you're doing it and, um, you can build off of that.

But yeah, I definitely do.

You think that film there was, like, a more personal connection?

And it is a performance that you're putting on to some aspect so well, and what I've noticed is sometimes, like when they're like, Okay, we got it because they see it big.

And sometimes that next thing that was gonna happen was like the unplanned thing, you know, Or for instance, sometimes you're modeling and you'll do something that looks bad.

But the next thing was gonna look good, but they'll stop you at the bed and don't remember.

We used to be like, Okay, now we've got it.

Let's just do two rolls from the heck of it and throw it away.

And that might be where the magic is.

I think that when you know Vogue has adopted the 18 year old policy, which is very, very important.

I mean, I did start when I was 15.

You started when you were young, but I had a very, very protective mother who was really looking after me and was making it.

And also did your models have to pursue it?

Still, you had the same thing.

It's a way I think, to start a conversation with the fashion industry when these rules came into play, you know, I between my first and second season doing shows was when the rules fully came into effect.

I remember the first time I really noticed someone asked me on set.

Oh, can I tuck your shirt in?

And for me as a model?

I never thought about that, but suddenly, when they asked me, I was like, You know what?

That makes sense, right?

Like it is appropriate to ask, Can I tuck your shirt in?

And that definitely kind of something clicked in my head where I realized that now everyone was really making an effort to make sure everyone felt comfortable.

We definitely felt more encouraged to speak up.

It just felt more like a collaborative process.

Um, but again, I think bottom line is these aren't issues that just we as models were facing and, um, and it's also whether you're 17 or 25 or 40.

Nobody should have to feel uncomfortable in their workplace, regardless.

Like, for instance, I've done a ton of news throughout my career, you know, with her Brits and helmet.

Maybe, but I never, ever felt bad about except for one time.

And it was because it wasn't supposed to be a nude, and I kind of felt like a little pressured into it.

This guy kind of, I don't know, He just kind of it felt not right.

And those are the only ones I regret.

And they're actually not even full news.

It was like from the back sort of.

But I didn't vote myself.

And I think that's the thing is like that.

Um, that idea of voting yourself in is is very important in any you know, any situation.

Sometimes it's like even, you know, I've had times where they wanted me to hold a gun and I was like, Yeah, I don't really feel good about this or someone wanted to take my face once And I was like, Don't feel good about this, you know?

And sometimes they don't like that.

You say no, But But to your point now, I think models Gilmore in power to say no.

Yeah, And I think if if anything, that's definitely a positive changes.

Just that we feel like there is more space for us to speak up because at the end of the day.

You know, we are the ones who have to take responsibility for the images as well as everyone else on this shoot.

But, you know, whatever decision is made that day, I want to know that you know, I'm falling asleep confident with my decisions, because it is, you know, your figure in your body and your life.

You know, you never pushed me into the industry.

Um, and it was a decision that you let me make on my own.

And obviously we're so supportive and hoped so much, but I also didn't want to start until I felt self confident enough.

Um and, you know, like, I knew myself enough to protect myself, but yeah, it is the most amazing industry.

I've never you know.

Where else can you get so many creative minds in one room, like even today, sitting here with everyone and, um, and being able to travel to all of these amazing places I can't imagine ever for a second taking any of it for granted.

Modeling is like a hard job for kids to understand.

I remember my son telling his preschool that I didn't work because I guess I didn't have, like, a normal job that he understood.

Plus, I didn't work every single day.

So and I think you talk about this in your vote piece that you wrote is that, you know, I would wash my hair and and make up off the second I came home.

So it was like they really just saw me as mom.

And they didn't understand sometimes why we were like paparazzi were following us.

And how do we explain to a five year old why paparazzi is following you?

It doesn't.

It still doesn't make sense to me.

So and then I was on, like wizards of Waverly Place, and my kids thought that was cool.

That was like the first time that I was famous to my kids.

I was in those right, And I was like, Wait, so really Selena Gomez know.

So you think I don't really know what to do, right?

At an age where often, like your 18 year old daughter is like, doesn't necessarily wanna listen to anything you have to say there.

This has been something that's brought us closer because it's she also can't say, Mom, you don't know what you're talking about about this?

No.

Knew about about my captions on Instagram.

You also say that and she's right, by the way.

I defer to her on any sort of learning things from each exactly.

But it's it's a fun journey for us to be on.

And I just went to Paris too well for the Peter Lindbergh Memorial.

But also I got I went to the sauna Ron Show.

And when we went to the party afterwards, and it was incredible for me as a mom to see Kaya like, totally feeling comfortable in this world in her element like that was a really great trip.

I think for both of us, it was.

And I think when I first started, I was so, you know, careful toe to be like, I don't know if you should come to this.

And you know, I definitely wanted it to be my own thing.

But, you know, now I'm so happy that she's around and I'm like, Oh, come stay for the show.

Like she wasn't going to say I was like, Please come and stay and it will be fun.

Um and yeah, I know it's definitely brought us so much closer.

And for that, you know, I'm eternally grateful to this industry for doing that.

Well, it's been a pleasure, That's all.

I contain you.

And, um, Cindy, I just have to say that as a mother to mother, with Children, I mean, it speaks enormously of you.

It really reflects so incredibly on you and what you have given your daughter.

And, um you know, I hope all the mothers in the room can can feel But you must be feeling well, thank you.

But I have to say she did come out pretty cooked already.

She's she's I can't take all the credit, but I will take I want So you are awesome.

Well, you lead by example.

Thank you.