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>> Alcindor: ONE DAY AFTER THE
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
APPROVED TWO ARTICLES OF
IMPEACHMENT, DEMOCRATS HOPING TO
TAKE ON PRESIDENT TRUMP NEXT
NOVEMBER WERE ON STAGE,
DEBATING.
AND ON THAT SAME NIGHT, AT A
CAMPAIGN RALLY IN MICHIGAN, THE
PRESIDENT SPOKE FOR MORE THAN
TWO HOURS.
HE ANGRILY BLASTED DEMOCRATS AND
ATTACKED THE IMPEACHMENT
PROCESS.
JOINING ME NOW TO DISCUSS ALL OF
THIS ARE CHRIS BUSKIRK, EDITOR
AND PUBLISHER OF "AMERICAN
GREATNESS," WHO IS IN PHOENIX,
ARIZONA; AND KARINE JEAN-PIERRE,
CHIEF PUBLIC AFFAIRS OFFICER AT
moveon.org IN WASHINGTON, D.C.
SHE'S ALSO THE AUTHOR OF "MOVING
FORWARD: A STORY OF HOPE, HARD
WORK AND THE PROMISE OF
AMERICA."
THANKS TO BOTH OF YOU FOR
JOINING ME TODAY.
KARINE, I'M GOING TO START WITH
YOU.
HOUSE SPEAKER NANCY PELOSI IS
NOW INDICATING SHE MAY DELAY
SENDING THE ARTICLES OF
IMPEACHMENT TO THE SENATE.
WHO BENEFITS FROM THAT POTENTIAL
STRATEGY?
>> YOU KNOW WHAT, YAMICHE, RIGHT
NOW WE'RE IN A CONSTITUTIONAL
GAME OF CHICKEN.
I DON'T THINK THAT OUR FOUNDING
FATHERS EVER THOUGHT THAT WE
WOULD BE IN A SITUATION WHERE
YOU HAVE ONE BODY, THE SENATE,
WHO SEEMS TO BE WANTING TO
COLLUDE WITH THE EXECUTIVE
BRANCH-- THAT IS, MITCH
McCONNELL, WHO HAS BASICALLY
SAID HE'S GOING TO WORK HAND IN
HAND WITH THE TRUMP
ADMINISTRATION.
AND WITH ALL OF THE GUIDANCE
THAT WE'VE RECEIVED IN THE
CONSTITUTION, WE'RE KIND IN A
GRAY AREA.
AND WHAT I THINK IS HAPPENING,
WHAT SEEMS TO BE HAPPENING IS
THAT SPEAKER PELOSI IS
ESSENTIALLY SAYING SHE WANTS A
FAIR TRIAL IN THE SENATE AND IS
USING HER LEVERAGE AT THIS
MOMENT TO MAKE SURE THAT
HAPPENS.
SO, RIGHT NOW, THIS IS JUST
WHERE WE ARE.
WE'RE IN... WE'RE IN THE HOLIDAY
SEASON.
WE WON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT'S
GOING TO BE HAPPENING UNTIL
AFTER JANUARY 6, WHEN THE HOUSE
AND THE SENATE COMES BACK FROM
THE HOLIDAY.
>> Alcindor: HOUSE SPEAKER
NANCY PELOSI IS SAYING SHE MIGHT
WITHHOLD THOSE ARTICLES OF
IMPEACHMENT FROM THE SENATE.
WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?
KARINE SAYS WE'RE IN A GAME OF
CHICKEN HERE.
>> YEAH, I MEAN, I'VE GOT TO
TELL YOU, YAMICHE, THIS HAS GOT
TO BE ONE OF MY FAVORITE STORIES
OF THE ENTIRE YEAR.
IT JUST SORT OF TICKLES ME
BECAUSE IT DEMONSTRATES WHAT A
BROKEN INSTITUTION CONGRESS IN
GENERAL IS.
AND THAT'S NOT REALLY SO MUCH A
HIT ON DEMOCRATS, ON
REPUBLICANS.
IT JUST SAYS, YOU KNOW, HERE WE
ARE, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE
IMPEACHMENT OF THE PRESIDENT OF
THE UNITED STATES.
DEMOCRATS HAVE BEEN TALKING
ABOUT IT, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY
SINCE THE BEGINNING OF 2017.
THEY FINALLY PASSED THE
ARTICLES, BUT THEY DON'T WANT TO
SEND THEM TO THE SENATE.
AND SO, WHEN I THINK ABOUT THIS,
I THINK, YOU KNOW, THIS HAS JUST
SORT OF DEGENERATED TO THE POINT
WHERE CONGRESS HAS BECOME LIKE
AN ARTISTS' COLLECTIVE
PERFORMING FOR THE RELATIVE
CONSTITUENCIES AND THEIR
PATRONS.
WE ALL KNOW HOW THIS ENDS UP.
THIS EVENTUALLY GOES TO THE
SENATE.
THERE'S GOING TO BE A TRIAL.
DONALD TRUMP IS GOING TO BE
ACQUITTED, AND THEN WE'RE GOING
TO HAVE TO TALK ABOUT THE
ELECTION.
AND SO, TO THE EXTENT THAT THIS
DELAYS TALKING ABOUT THE ACTUAL
ELECTION THAT'S HAPPENING IN
NOVEMBER, WHETHER ANYBODY LIKES
IT OR NOT, I JUST DON'T SEE HOW
THIS HELPS DEMOCRATS.
SO, I WOULD THINK THAT NANCY
PELOSI WOULD WANT TO GET THIS
OVER TO MITCH McCONNELL AND TO
THE REPUBLICANS SOONER RATHER
THAN LATER.
>> Alcindor: CHRIS, STICKING
WITH YOU, "CHRISTIANITY TODAY,"
AN EVANGELICAL MAGAZINE, CAME
OUT IN SUPPORT OF REMOVING
PRESIDENT TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
THE EDITOR WROTE THAT PRESIDENT
TRUMP IS AN EXAMPLE OF SOMEONE
WHO IS MORALLY LOST AND
CONFUSED.
WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?
AND HOW ARE REPUBLICANS TALKING
ABOUT THAT MAGAZINE COMING OUT
WITH THAT STANCE?
>> YEAH, SO, I THOUGHT THIS WAS
A TOTALLY INTERESTING STORY, AND
YOU ACTUALLY KEYED IN ON THE
LANGUAGE THAT I THOUGHT WAS MOST
INTERESTING IN THE WHOLE
EDITORIAL BY MARK GALLI, WHO'S
THE DEPARTING EDITOR OF
"CHRISTIANITY TODAY."
AND SO, HE SAYS, YES, DONALD
TRUMP SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM
OFFICE.
BUT HE USES AS A PREDICATE FOR
THAT, HE CALLS HIM MORALLY LOST.
AND THE THING THAT JUMPED OUT TO
ME ABOUT THAT LANGUAGE IS THAT
"LOST," YOU KNOW, IN A CHRISTIAN
CONTEXT, THAT'S A VERY FREIGHTED
TERM, RIGHT?
CHRISTIANS TALK ABOUT THE SAVED
AND THE LOST.
AND SO, WHAT... SO, IT JUST
STRUCK ME WHAT GALLI'S DOING
HERE IS, HE'S SETTING UP SORT OF
THIS DICHOTOMY WHERE YOU HAVE TO
SAY... YOU HAVE TO THINK HE'S
EITHER SAYING ON THE ONE HAND,
WELL, HE'S MORALLY LOST--
MEANING DONALD TRUMP ISN'T A
CHRISTIAN AND THEREFORE OUGHT
NOT TO BE IN OFFICE.
SO, IS HE SAYING THAT CHRISTIANS
OUGHT NOT TO BE PRESIDENT?
I HOPE NOT.
WELL, ON THE OTHER HAND, WHAT
HE'S TRYING TO DO IS WRAP HIS
POLITICAL OPINIONS IN CHRISTIAN
VOCABULARY IN ORDER TO TRY AND
BASICALLY TRICK THE READERS OF
"CHRISTIANITY TODAY" INTO
BELIEVING HIM.
AND EITHER WAY, I THINK THAT'S
SUPER CYNICAL.
>> Alcindor: TURNING NOW TO
THE DEMOCRATIC DEBATE, KARINE,
WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF HOW, IF AT
ALL, THAT THIS DEMOCRATIC DEBATE
MIGHT IMPACT THE IOWA CAUCUSES?
THEY'RE JUST AROUND THE CORNER.
AND IF YOU WANT TO, YOU CAN TALK
A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT CHRIS
JUST SAID, BUT I ALSO REALLY
WANT TO GET TO THE IOWA CAUCUSES
AND THIS DEMOCRATIC DEBATE.
>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL,
CONGRATULATIONS TO EVERYONE AT
PBS.
YOU GUYS DID A FANTASTIC JOB.
IT WAS A VERY, VERY GOOD
MODERATED DEBATE.
SO, CONGRATULATIONS TO YOU,
YAMICHE, AS WELL.
LOOK, I THINK IT WAS, ALL IN
ALL, IT WAS A GOOD DEBATE LAST
WEEK.
NOBODY... NOBODY DID GREAT AND
NOBODY DID TERRIBLE.
I THINK THAT HAVING LESS PEOPLE
ON THE DEBATE STAGE REALLY
ALLOWED A REAL CONVERSATION
ABOUT VISION, ABOUT WHAT
PEOPLE'S PLANS ARE.
SOMEONE LIKE KLOBUCHAR REALLY
WAS ABLE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF
HAVING LESS PEOPLE ON STAGE.
BIDEN DID WELL.
FOR WARREN AND OTHERS, LIKE
BERNIE SANDERS, I THINK IT WAS A
FINE DEBATE.
AS FAR AS IOWA, WE'RE LESS THAN
50 DAYS TO IOWA.
WE'RE IN THE HOLIDAY SEASON.
I THINK EVERYTHING IS KIND OF
FROZEN INTO PLACE.
WE'RE NOT GOING TO SEE MUCH
MOVEMENT IN THE POLLS UNTIL
AFTER JANUARY WHEN WE GET CLOSER
TO, CLEARLY, THE CAUCUS.
AND, HONESTLY, I MEAN, THE POLLS
HAVE BEEN THE POLLS.
THE TOP THREE, THE TOP FOUR,
THAT TIER ONE HAS BASICALLY BEEN
WHAT WE SEE.
I THINK WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT
IOWA CAUCUS AND THE HISTORY OF
IT, AND HOW IT GOES IN THE
DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY, USUALLY IT'S
SOMEONE THAT'S KIND OF... THAT
BREAKS LATE THAT WINS THE IOWA
CAUCUS.
SO, I ACTUALLY THINK IOWA IS
WIDE OPEN.
ANYONE CAN TAKE IT.
AND SO, IT'S GOING TO BE... IT'S
GOING TO BE A WILD RIDE COME
JANUARY, SO BUCKLE UP.
>> Alcindor: AND, CHRIS, I
SPOKE TO DEVAL PATRICK AND
JULIAN CASTRO, BOTH STILL
RUNNING FOR THE DEMOCRATIC
NOMINATION BUT NEITHER ONE OF
THEM GOT ON STAGE.
WHAT DO YOU THINK THEY MIGHT
NEED TO DO ABOUT THIS?
AND ALSO, MICHAEL BLOOMBERG,
HE'S ACTUALLY SHOWING SUPPORT
GOING UP.
EVEN THOUGH HE'S NOT GOING TO BE
ABLE TO MAKE THE DEBATE STAGE,
HE IS POURING MILLIONS OF
DOLLARS OF ADS INTO TV.
>> YEAH, I MEAN, PATRICK AND
CASTRO, LOOK, WHAT THEY, I
THINK, ARE PROBABLY BEST SUITED
TO DO IS ALIGN WITH ONE OF THE
OTHER CANDIDATES.
I JUST DON'T SEE AN OPPORTUNITY
FOR THEM TO SORT OF BREAK OUT
AND ALL OF A SUDDEN WIN IOWA OR
NEW HAMPSHIRE OR SOMETHING.
MIKE BLOOMBERG IS SORT OF A
DIFFERENT AND, IN A WAY, MORE
INTERESTING STORY BECAUSE HE
JUST HAS THE ABILITY TO BLANKET
THE AIRWAVES, TO HIRE STAFF IN
EVERY STATE, AND BASICALLY TO
SUCK UP A TON OF OXYGEN JUST BY
VIRTUE OF THE FACT THAT HE CAN
SELF-FUND TO THE EXTENT... I
MEAN, HE CAN LITERALLY SPEND
MORE MONEY THAN EVERY OTHER
CANDIDATE COMBINED, AND THAT
MEANS SOMETHING.
I'M NOT SURE WHAT IT MEANS, BUT
IT MEANS HE CAN BUY A LOT OF
STAFF, AND HE CAN BUY SOME
MEASURE OF SUPPORT.
AND YET, IT STILL SEEMS LIKE
HE'S JUST NOT THAT INTERESTING
OR CHARISMATIC OF A CANDIDATE.
YOU KNOW, I WATCHED THE DEBATES
THE OTHER NIGHT, AND I KEPT
THINKING, YOU KNOW, EVERYBODY
EXCEPT BERNIE SANDERS SORT OF
REPRESENTS SOME FLAVOR OF THE
NEOLIBERAL CONCENSUS.
BERNIE SANDERS I FOUND TOTALLY
FASCINATING BECAUSE HE IS WHO HE
ALWAYS HAS BEEN.
AND AS A RESULT, I THOUGHT...
AGAIN, THIS IS JUST ME AS A
CONSERVATIVE LOOKING AT HIM AND
SAYING THIS ACTUALLY IS SOMEBODY
WHO I FOUND PRETTY INTERESTING
AND REALLY DIFFERENTIATING
HIMSELF FROM THE OTHERS.
>> Alcindor: THANK YOU SO MUCH,
CHRIS BUSKIRK AND KARINE
JEAN-PIERRE.
>> THANK YOU, YAMICHE.
>> THANKS.
THANKS, YAMICHE.
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No clear lead among Democratic candidates in Iowa

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王惟惟 2020 年 1 月 13 日 に公開

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