DEVELOPMENTS OF THIS WEEK HAS

BEEN THE EXPANSION OF COLLEGE

PROTESTS AND ENCAMPMENTS.

ENCAMPMENTS CONTINUE TO POP UP,

INCLUDING TODAY AT THE

UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA.

MEANWHILE, PROTESTERS AT

COLUMBIA SAY THEY CAN"T REACH AN

AGREEMENT WITH THE SCHOOL AND

INTED TO KEEP THEIRS GOING

INDEFINITELY.

HUNDREDS OF STUDENTS HAVE BEEN

ARRESTED, AND CHARGES HAVE BEEN

BROUGHT AGAINST SOME STUDENTS AS

WELL DURING CLASHES.

>> OVERNIGHT, MORE VIOLENT

CLASHES WITH BETWEEN

PRO-PALESTINIAN PROTESTERS AND

POLICE, THIS TIME AT OHIO STATE

UNIVERSITY.

OFFICERS MOVED TO DISPERSE A

CROWD AFTER AN HOURS LONG

DEMONSTRATION, CITING RULES

BANNING OVERNIGHT EVENTS.

MORE THAN A DOZEN PEOPLE WERE

ARRESTED.

THE LATEST WAVE OF PROTESTS AND

ENCAMPMENTS FOLLOW

DEMONSTRATIONS AT COLUMBIA

UNIVERSITY LAST WEEK.

SIMILAR SCENES HAVE POPPED UP AT

SCORES OF OTHER COLLEGES OVER

THE LAST SEVERAL DAYS AND HAVE

LED TO HUNDREDS OF ARRESTS.

VIDEO FROM EMORY UNIVERSITY

YESTERDAY SHOWS OFFICERS PINNING

A PROTESTER TO THE GROUND AND

TASTING HIM.

SOME DAMAGE TRADERS ARE CALLING

OTHER UNIVERSITIES TO CUT

FINANCIAL TIES WITH ISRAEL.

>> WE CAME TOGETHER TO MAKE

DEMANDS ON THE UNIVERSITY TO THE

VEST THE ENDOWMENT FROM

CORPORATIONS THAT PROFIT OFF

ISRAELI GENOCIDE.

TO DISCLOSE WHERE OUR MONEY IS

INVESTED IN THE FIRST PLACE.

>> WHILE OTHERS WANT TO BRING

ATTENTION TO THE WAR IN GAZA.

>> WE WANT TO BE VISIBLE.

THE UNIVERSITY SHOULD DO

SOMETHING ABOUT THE GENOCIDE.

>> FIVE MINUTES TO LEAVE THE

PREMISES.

>> MANY SAY TODAY'S

DEMONSTRATIONS ECHO COLLEGE

PROTEST MOVEMENTS OF THE PAST,

INCLUDING AGAINST THE VIETNAM

WAR.

>> WHAT PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO

TELL THE UNITED STATES, THE

AMERICAN PEOPLE IS THE COUNTRY

SHOULD NOT FUNCTION WHILE THIS

WAR IS GOING ON.

>> THAT INCLUDES A HISTORIC

DEMONSTRATION AT COLUMBIA

UNIVERSITY ITSELF IN 1968.

STUDENTS OCCUPIED CAMPUS

BUILDINGS, THE MANY OF THE

UNIVERSITY CUT TIES WITH A THINK

TANK INVOLVED IN PENTAGON

WEAPONS RESEARCH.

IT WAS MET WITH A HEAVY POLICE

RESPONSE.

OTHER VIETNAM WAR PROTESTS IN

THE 1960'S AND 1970'S LED TO

CLASHES WITH AUTHORITIES AND

MASS ARRESTS, BUT OVER TIME,

THEY HELPED TO SHIFT PUBLIC

OPINION LEADING UP TO THE

EVENTUAL U.S. WITHDRAWAL.

IN THE 1980'S, A SIMILAR

MOVEMENT POPPED UP AT

UNIVERSITIES NATIONWIDE, CALLING

FOR DIVESTMENT FROM SOUTH

AFRICA TO END APARTHEID.

TODAY, SOME STUDENTS SAY THEY

ARE TAKING LESSONS FROM THOSE

PROTESTS.

>> OUR DEMANDS ARE FINANCIAL

DIVESTMENT.

THAT IS A DEMAND DATING BACK TO

THE ANTI-APARTHEID DIVESTMENT

MOVEMENT.

>> AS THE SCHOOL YEAR COMES TO A

CLOSE, THERE'S NO SIGN YET THAT

THIS WAVE OF PROTESTS WILL END

BEFORE CLASSES LET OUT.

AMNA: AS PROTESTS OF ISRAEL'S

WAR IN GAZA SPREAD TO CAMPUSES

ACROSS THE COUNTRY, SOME SEE

PARALLELS BETWEEN TODAY'S

DEMONSTRATIONS AND COLLEGE

PROTESTS IN THE PAST.

STEVEN MINTZ IS A PROFESSOR OF

HISTORY AT THE UNIVERSITY OF

TEXAS AT AUSTIN.

AND ANGUS JOHNSTON IS A

PROFESSOR AND HISTORIAN OF

AMERICAN STUDENT CULTURE AT THE

CITY UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK.

WELCOME TO YOU BOTH.

PROFESSOR JOHNSTON, LET'S START

WITH WHAT THE PROTESTERS ARE

CALLING FOR.

WHAT IS THEIR FOCUS?

WHAT DO THEY WANT AS A RESULT OF

THESE DEMONSTRATIONS?

>> IT VARIES CAMPUS BY CAMPUS

BUT PRIMARILY WHAT WE ARE

LOOKING AT IS THEY ARE LOOKING

FOR DIVESTMENT OF THE

UNIVERSITY'S FINANCIAL

RELATIONSHIPS WITH ISRAELI

COMPANIES.

A DISENTANGLEMENT OF THE

UNIVERSITIES FROM RELATIONSHIPS

WITH THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT OR

MILITARY.

AND TRANSPARENCY AS TO THE

NATURE OF THOSE RELATIONSHIPS.

AMNA: WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE

DEMANDS AS PROFESSOR JOHNSTON

LAID THEM OUT?

DO YOU THINK THAT IS SOMETHING

COLLEGES CAN ACHIEVE?

>> I THINK THEY ARE VERY

UNLIKELY TO BE ACHIEVED.

THE PROTESTS OF THE 1960'S, IT

WAS POSSIBLE TO ACHIEVE SOME

KIND OF ACCOMMODATION.

FIRST OF ALL, ONE OF THE

DEMANDS, AN END TO THE MILITARY

DRAFT, RECEIVED WIDESPREAD

SUPPORT THROUGHOUT SOCIETY.

AND RICHARD NIXON'S

ADMINISTRATION WOULD MAKE THAT

HAPPEN.

ON CAMPUSES THEMSELVES, THERE

WERE SOME PRACTICAL GOALS, LIKE

STUDIES PROGRAMS, WOMEN'S

STUDIES PROGRAMS, COEDUCATION AT

THE ELITE PRIVATE UNIVERSITIES.

AN END TO LOCAL REGULATIONS.

THERE WAS A LOT OF GROUND FOR

ACCOMMODATION AND COMPROMISE,

AND I DON'T SEE THAT MUCH RIGHT

NOW.

AMNA: WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

>> I THINK THE EASIEST, SIMPLEST

DEMAND THEY ARE MAKING IS A

DEMAND FOR TRANSPARENCY WITH THE

UNIVERSITY'S RELATIONSHIP WITH

ISRAELI INSTITUTIONS.

I THINK THAT IS SOMETHING THAT

IS CERTAINLY WINNABLE ON A LOT

OF CAMPUSES.

I THINK IN A LOT OF WAYS, THE

ANTI-APARTHEID MOVEMENT OF THE

1970'S AND 1980'S IS A MUCH

BETTER ANALOG THAN THE MASS

STUDENT MOVEMENT OF THE LATE

1960'S AND SUBWAYS.

I THINK IT IS A BOARD TO RIVERA

THAT THE CASE -- IT IS IMPORTANT

TO REMEMBER THAT IN THE CASE OF

THE ANTI-APARTHEID MOVEMENT, THE

CALL BEGAN IN THE 1970'S.

IT WAS A VERY LONG AND SLOW

PROCESS, BY WHICH STUDENTS WERE

ADJUSTING PEOPLE'S VIEWS OF

THE CRISIS ITSELF.

AMNA: WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT,

PROFESSOR MINTZ?

COULD THESE PROTESTS START WHAT

COULD BE A LONG CHAIN OF

CHANGING PEOPLE'S MINDS WHEN IT

COMES TO HOW THEY SEE THESE

ISSUES?

>> THE CONTEXT TODAY IS VERY

DIFFERENT THAN THE 1960'S AND

1970'S WHEN HIGHER EDUCATION WAS

GROWING AND THE FEDERAL AND

STATE INVESTMENTS IN HIGHER

EDUCATION WERE INCREASING.

TODAY, THE SITUATION OF AMERICAN

HIGHER EDUCATION IS EXTREMELY

PRECARIOUS.

PUBLIC SUPPORT HAS DIMINISHED.

FUNDING IS HOTLY DEBATED IN MANY

OF THE STATES.

THERE ARE THREATS AND SOME STATE

LEGISLATORS -- IN SOME STATE

LEGISLATURES TO TAX

ENDOWMENTS, UNIVERSITY PROPERTY,

UNIVERSITY INCOME.

DONATIONS TO MANY OF THE LEADING

UNIVERSITIES HAVE DECLINED.

THIS IS A VERY TREACHEROUS

MOMENT, ESPECIALLY FOR THE MOST

WELL ENDOWED AND HIGHLY

SELECTIVE INSTITUTIONS.

AMNA: PROFESSOR JOHNSTON, DO YOU

AGREE WITH THAT?

IS THERE A CHANCE THE PROTESTERS

RUN THE RISK OF LOSING SUPPORT

THE LONGER THESE PROTESTS GO ON

BECAUSE OF THIS SCENARIO?

>> I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO

NOTE THAT THE PROTESTS

THEMSELVES SO FAR HAVE LARGELY

BEEN PRETTY MODERATE IN THEIR

TACTICS.

WE ARE NOT SEEING AS WE DID IN

THE 1960'S RIOTING, ROCKS BEING

THROWN AT POLICE, ANY ANY

BUILDINGS BEING BURNED DOWN.

THE PROTESTS THEMSELVES HAVE

BEEN PRETTY MODERATE.

THE THING THAT IS INFLAMING THE

SITUATION RIGHT NOW, IN TERMS OF

THEIR TACTICS.

THE THING THAT IS INFLAMING THE

SITUATION RIGHT NOW IS BRINGING

IN THE COPS AND USING THE POLICE

NOT ONLY TO ENGAGE IN MASS

ARRESTS AGAINST STUDENTS, BUT IN

ARRESTING AND IN SOME CASES

BEATING AND ABUSING FACULTY AS

WELL.

I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO POINT

OUT THERE ARE NUMBER OF CAMPUSES

THAT WHICH THE UNIVERSITY HAS

DECIDED TO TAKE A HANDS-OFF

APPROACH TO THESE IN CHEMNITZ --

THESE

ENCAMPMENTS.

THEY HAVE BEEN PROCEEDING WITH

VERY LITTLE ISSUE AND VERY

LITTLE DRAMA.

AMNA: WHAT ABOUT THAT?

BECAUSE WE HAVE SEEN SOME PRETTY

HEAVY-HANDED TACTICS IN SOME

CASES.

ON YOUR CAMPUS, THE UNIVERSITY

OF TEXAS AT AUSTIN, DOZENS OF

PEOPLE WERE ARRESTED.

POLICE IN RIOT GEAR WERE CALLED

IN TO DISPERSE THE CROWD.

IS THAT NECESSARY?

>> RIGHT NOW, WE HAVE MANY

BRAND-NEW PRESIDENTS, UNSEASONED

SENIOR ADMINISTRATORS MAKING

DECISIONS.

ONE SUSPECTS THAT ADMINISTRATORS

WHO ARE MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE ABOUT

PAST HISTORY, HAVE MORE

EXPERIENCE DEALING WITH

STUDENTS, HAVE BETTER RAPPORT

WITH THEIR STUDENT POPULATIONS,

THAT THIS WOULD BE PLAYING OUT

EXTREMELY DIFFERENTLY.

WHAT WE NEED TO SEE ON THE PART

OF SENIOR ADMINISTRATORS IS A

REAL WILLINGNESS TO STEP OUT OF

THEIR OFFICES, COMMUNICATE WITH

THE STUDENTS, AND TRY TO ACHIEVE

SOME KIND OF ACCOMMODATION.

AMNA: ARE YOU SAYING YOU DON'T

BELIEVE THE POLICE SHOULD HAVE

BEEN CALLED IN AND SOME OF THE

CIRCUMSTANCES?

>> ABSOLUTELY NOT.

THE LESSON OF HISTORY COULD NOT

BE CLEARER.

THAT THIS ONLY ESCALATES THE

SITUATION.

IT WORSENS THE SITUATION AND IT

RESULTS IN A DEGREE OF

ALIENATION THAT IS VERY

DIFFICULT TO OVERCOME.

AMNA: GIVEN ALL THAT, PROFESSOR

MINTZ, I WILL ASK YOU BOTH,

WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?

HOW DO YOU SEE THIS UNFOLDING IN

THE WEEKS AHEAD?

>> I THINK THE CONVERSATION

NEEDS TO BE MADE MORE

PRODUCTIVE.

IN THIS COUNTRY, IF YOU WANT

POLITICAL CHANGE, YOU BUILD

COALITIONS.

WHAT I AM NOT SEEING ON CAMPUS

RIGHT NOW IS AN EFFORT TO HAVE

EFFECTIVE PROTESTS THAT WILL

BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER.