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Hello.
I am Hala Malta's I Am the Ideas editor at Ted Andi.
I am here to welcome a panel about the creative economy to reflect the idea that no longer is support for entertainment and distribution of entertainment coming from traditional media outlets, but instead is coming from everyone from all of us have an astonishing panel of creative professionals who have proved that using creative platforms such a Kickstarter which in fact one of our panellists co founded can be lucrative can be successful and can be deeply interesting.
So Amanda Palmer, you came to Ted last year and you knocked our socks off with your talk, which we posted as the art of asking right after the conference and got a 1,000,000 views.
Within about a week, I was going to say 10 minutes, but it was about a week.
I wonder if I think one of the things that really captured the imagination of the audience with your thoughts don't make people pay for music.
Let them.
I wonder if you could kind of fill us in on what's happened in the last year, and how you're thinking about Crowdfunding has evolved well since since Ted last year.
I have completed the tour of that album that I kick started, which I was actually, the timing of my Ted talk last year was a little bizarre because I had I had put out the Kickstarter record.
I had gone through the whole backlash of doing a Kickstarter and then going on the tour, and now I'm out the other end of it entirely, having finished the tour and kind of looking down the barrel of How do I make music next?
And a lot of my travels have taken me through lots of conversations with other artists and musicians and people like Yancey who actually are on the back end trying to figure out what's working and what's not working in crowdfunding.
I think we're now moving into an era where, like okay, we get crowdfunding, we get that it conceptually it works, and now we're going on.
We're finessing which tools will work in what situations and for what artists At what time?
Yeah, well, I'd love to talk a little bit more, but as you say later about what what is working and what's not working?
I did want to bring in some of the guys on Skype.
Tim, I'd like to start with you.
You on You raised extraordinary amount of money for your game double fine adventure via Kickstarter and had a huge amount of fans who were interested in participating.
How do you manage those rabid fans?
How do you balance there?
Need to feel involved in what you're doing with your need to actually get on and do the work?
Well, it was a full time job, so we started used Kickstarter just sitting there, answering all the messages all day long.
There are a lot of questions and we're learning so much from them what they wanted.
They wanted dear m three versions of the game and they taught us a lot.
And luckily, being backers, they're all really supportive.
So even though they're, you know, a big, unruly crowd, they were all kind of like a huge cheerleading squad, which was really helpful.
And Ivan, you also worked on a huge project.
You worked on the Veronica Mars movie and you managed the digital campaign for that similar question to you.
How do you How do you balance?
Like trying to manage a community at that type of scale with also making a movie.
Yeah, well, with that minor detail of also having to make a major movie, Yeah, I mean, it's it's interesting because yeah, I think we were the first studio level picture to try and do it and the rule that I was brought on as WeII called associate producer because there's really no other name for what I ended up doing.
But what I was fundamentally brought on to do was kind of strategy as an executive produce the Kickstarter campaign because we tried to see the movie as the result of ah process.
But we, you know, we had something that wasn't just a new thing.
We're asking people to take a chance on it with something that a lot of people have been trying to get back for a long time.
It had been able to, so we wanted to be a movie.
At the end of one year, we came back after taking everyone's money and said, Here's the thing you were promised.
That's it.
Thanks.
We wanted to be your long experience of being part of what it was like toe get that meat and to know everyone who was voting.
So that was really the balance for me was easy because I didn't have to produce the movie produced everything around it.
And this brings up a really important question, which is that weird balance between making a commercial project and not having total control over your distribution and making a, you know, totally d I?
Why I'm just making it in my kitchen and putting it into an envelope and mailing it to your project.
What?
What did you feel like?
You learn from that?
Um, we're still learning it.
I've been trying to talk with many backers as possible for the last 72 hours, so I haven't slept a lot in the realm of all Kickstarter projects ever.
Does this happen?
I mean, you're making something with the community, and you are also distribute directly to them, and so that relationship that you're having to respect I mean, I think that the Veronica Mars Project has been amazing, and I think it's been incredible.
One for fans.
90,000 people have made a Hollywood movie.
Never before did people think this is possible.
Use revelation.
I think What I what I loved most about the whole way that the Veronica Mars thing has happened is watching on actual shift, not necessarily in the understanding from journalists, because journalists are always the last to figure things out but down in the comments, whereas a year ago people will be going, Oh my God, they're making ah Hollywood movie on cheating people out of the profits.
Now, if you actually get somebody down in the comments going, they made a movie and they cheated people out of the comments.
You get two dozen people saying, Actually, I paid the money to see the movie, and I got the movie that I wanted.
The deal is exactly the deal I wanted your stupid go away on it is that wonderful, comfortable thing of the your stupid going Go away.
That is beautiful.
It means that people actually figuring out what this thing is for and how well, I'm super glad you mentioned the next two things that were that were interesting.
One is that you know that we see these arguments all the time.
Our fans take it upon themselves to go on to other forums and argue with journalists and with the press, because the only ones who don't seems sometimes to think that our fans are being taken advantage of our fans who do, I think, to kick starters, credit feel that they got exactly what they wanted.
They have been asking for something for seven years.
There wasn't a good economic proposition to make it worthwhile, workable under the old system, and they got exactly what they wanted.
I mean, we have we posted.
Rob, the director and creator of Mars, sends an update on Friday night when the movie came out worldwide and theaters and was distributed across all of the major platforms and asked people for their feedback on the movie.
And we've been We've been flooded all week in there, like in 1516 100 messages from people who tell us these stories about reconnecting with their families and how they never thought this day would happen and how that money we've ever spent and how they want to spend 10 times more if we do it again.
And they hope that even if the studio will pay for it, they'd rather the studio didn't because they really don't want to be cut out of the process of getting to be a part of it next time.
That's it's like incredible lunch the flip side of that which, which would be really curious, especially for Tim remanded.
For those of you who have done these projects, where you ask your biggest supporters and fans for help up front, I don't think you watched Veronica Mars minute his honor, if you're if you've seen the movie yet.
But we ran into another problem that I think is unique to kickstart.
And yet, so I'm curious if you've seen this, too, which is that there was no press.
There was a Love Triangle original television show that we were bringing back, and fans had very strong feelings about how they wanted that love trying play out.
And the paparazzi were paying so much attention during a production that they took photos on set about three or four days of shooting that implied which way that love triangle might go.
It wasn't the way that fans want, because you don't tell the exact story fans think they want or you wouldn't have a story.
Um, but we got hundreds of emails that day from people who said that is not what I gave my money to If they get back together in the movie, I want my money back on.
This was not what I meant to fund.
So there's been this really interesting learning for us whose story is it and know where they're giving the money just to let Rob tell the story you wanted to sell?
Or do they have a right to be part of the creative process and not just production process?
It's been that's been one of most fascinating things, and that's a really interesting point.
Two, and Max actually have this question for you is it seems like these crowdfunding projects that based on projects, right, they're not.
They're not about sustaining the creative lifestyle.
And so, Max, I wonder if you could talk about that in terms of cards against humanity that was like the perfect creative project.
You has this affected the way that you think about creativity and about your own creative journey, and is this of influencing the way that you're actually thinking about using crowdfunding?
One of the interesting everything's marked cards against humanity is it didn't exist before our kids started wasn't like a project that we needed additional funding to keep working on.
It was just this thing that we wanted to try, and it was it was It was a weird game and it was a risk and we thought we would bring it to people and see if they wanted to play it.
So we've always had a very different relationship.
I think with our backers and some of these other projects, because it's for us.
It's always been like the proof of concept, of what people find this funny and and what they want to play it right.
But that being said, we've also at various points.
We tried to open up the writing.
We take card suggestions and joke suggestions on our website and their terrible They're universally, just awful.
So we've also tried to draw a very hard line of making it clear that, like you are, you're consuming a creative product that we're producing and that it's more like a patronage model, like we're gonna write this game and then you can buy it on.
Then we'll include like, blank cards if you want to modify it, but we're not really interested in, like, you know, creative notes from our backers.
So, frank, you are a classically trained cellist, and you are just dabbling your toes into this into this world of crowdfunding and community building.
And actually, I wanted to give you the floor.
I wanted to see if you have any questions for Tim or for Ivan or for Amanda off a Neil off Yancey.
Well, for Max for anybody, even me.
Ask me a question.
I know nothing, but I will try and answer it.
But do you have questions that you want to lost these guys?
Um, yeah, sure.
I've got a few.
Um, I guess in regards to Kickstarter, um, how can one gauge what constitutes, um I guess a large enough fan based, uh, yield results when embarking on a creative project.
The man did you want to take that?
That Yeah, that's such an important question that gets asked so often.
And it always astounds me because it I think because people don't really think about crowdfunding in the right way, it's like someone asking.
So how good does your product have to be to start a company?
Or how many people have to be interested in this product in order for you to make it, which is like, kind of a real question.
But it's also kind of a not a real question, because it really depends what you want to do with your life.
So if you're happy to have, you know 50 people supporting you at X Level two, you know it's basically you have to define what you consider successful.
And then I could answer that for you or anyone could.
Well, it's just it's the way to know.
I mean, if you think about Veronica Mars for seven years, Hollywood said, No, this is not worth making.
And then finally, Rob is able to get the permission to put it to the public.
And in 10 hours, the public answered and said Yes, of course, for seven years is an unanswerable question.
In 10 hours, people knew so the average project has 85 backers.
Andres is around five or six grand.
So, uh, you know how many people you want to be a part of?
It really scales according to your needs and like what you've done in the past and how Why'd you want to go with something?
But you know, what I love is that you know, 85 people is enough to make something creative and to create something that exists in the world and could be experienced by those 85 people and also a wider circle.
So, I mean, what precisely does it fits exactly your needs.
I mean, you determine everything.
It is completely within your control Well, and it's a dance.
It's like it's, I think, like everything else.
Nowadays, everyone wants to make it black and white, and it's like, Well, is it the artist in control?
Or is it backers?
And you know, you go into crowdfunding hoping kind and knowing not really knowing.
And then it becomes a two way conversation where the artist is basically determining what kind of level of involvement they want the audience to have.
An every artist in Creative Person does it differently.
Like, you know, some gamer might decide this is gonna be a totally crowd sourced crowd involved.
Everyone is gonna have a voice, and then you might have an artist who is like, I just want to make a classical piece of music.
There's no input from the audience whatsoever, but then might actually shift their thinking when someone in the crowd comes up with a creative idea for their art worker or so.
So when it's working well, it's a dance and evolves.
I think one of the things that you've also hit on is you cannot have nobody.
You actually you need your yoga starter.
You need to know that you have people to go out to whether it's all of your friends and all of your family on any kind of fan base to people who like you, they are your yoga starter on.
Do you want to put up the best possible Kickstarter or whatever crowdfunding platform you're using way off accessing them because you also want them to tell people it's the social joy in going.
Hey, I supported this thing and it's really cool.
You should, too.
Andi, you could be a part of this on.
With luck, you know, as I say, they are your yogurt starter.
They will go out and tell other people and transform them into yoga.
That is a terrible metaphor.
Younger.
I just so cute.
Now I'm English.
Yoga means many things to me.
What means one thing to me, but what do you mean by your If you are making your guts you need to begin with, or salad or bread or whatever you need to forgive.
Begin with a culture on you on that transfer.
Tiny bit off yoga will transform the rest of the sour milk into the yoga you need Andi.
With with Kickstarter, you need to begin with enough off a core in some way whether you have fans, whether you have friends, whether they were just people who you can communicate with who will then go out and having supportive you tell other people remote it.
You know that you can get You can sometimes short cut things by finding people with a lot of influence.
You know, I haven't even mentioned that I have two million followers on Kickstarter.
But what's interesting is with two million followers on Kickstarter on Twitter.
I'm a twit.
Sorry.
Very nice.
Thank you.
With two million followers on Twitter, I cannot kick start.
I cannot get a project that nobody wants to support.
Supported on Kickstarter, my friends will occasion Come and say Will you Will you put this on?
I'll look at it.
Go, I guess.
Okay.
And I will put up a cheerful, enthusiastic plug on it will be sitting there a $10 support and I will go up to two million people and say Support this and it will go up to $20 stick their right.
You can't solve them.
You cannot kill witches.
Do you really think is great on on the other hand, when people put up a great Kickstarter and then it goes sky high because I put out the thing that people get all.
Of course, you made a $1,000,000.
Neil Gaiman subordinate.
No, it doesn't work like that.
You have to have the great.
But I think any time anyone who's had any success with Kickstarter would know like you do need a crowd in order to Crowdfund.
It doesn't happen by magic and all.
You have to have something first and Veronica Mars, like all of that work, all of those fans, that whole community and then kick starter is the tool.
It's not the thing that made all those people showed up, show up 22 quick points one, just to the question of how many people do you need?
Just a fun one key fact, which is that there may be some merit in not having more people than you need, because I'll tell you that we spent a disproportionate amount of time over the last year figuring out how to print and distribute 85,000 T shirts around the world.
That wasn't a challenge.
We necessarily had fully anticipate the difficulty of the other thing.
I'll say it's what both Amanda and Neil are saying is I think the number could be a little bit of a red herring because, like Nancy said, you can have 85 people or you can have 91,585 just what we had.
But I think the biggest mistake people make on kick start because I'm now since Veronica Mars have consulted on a bunch of others.
Talk to Spike Lee when he was starting his and I talked to Zach Braff's team when they were starting theirs, and then a lot of which smaller, independent ones that weren't trying, tow build on existing name.
And I think the biggest mistake a lot of people making going into crowd front kick starter is thinking that their projects fundamentally about them.
People show up and say, Here's what I wanted to you Here's why.
You should help me do what I want.
And I think the projects that succeed are the ones that can effectively articulate.
Here's why I want to do something that I think you want.
I don't think it's completely selfless thing to give the crowdfunding people aren't doing because they want to do Rob or Amanda over Neil a favor.
They're doing it because they want back what could get made.
So, Tim, I have a question for you.
Which is that?
What?
What should creators do if they are, in fact, deeply antisocial?
Do you have to be able to engage at this level?
And do you have to be able to dive into this type of field?
Or like, what do you do if actually your deep introvert you hate social media hate the idea of all of this like you just you just screwed.
Strangely enough, that comes up in the game industry a lot, a lot of slightly shy people in the games industry and, um, if you're not good at it, facing your backers good, hire someone who can shoot if you have the ability to hire someone.
But I think I think part of the reason we had some successes, that we were facing them talking to them every day.
I do think it's really important to be present for them and answer all the questions were really responsible.
Sometimes they would be a huge flare up, and every would be mad about something.
We just post one missive saying, OK, we're gonna actually we heard you and then it would die away.
If we let that go for maybe a whole day or 24 hours or two days, it would become a huge, a huge problem for us.
So you really do have to be responsive, especially if you have a lot of backers.
You're screwed if you're shy.
Sounds harsh.
It does a bit.
Um, Max, do you have any Any thoughts on that?
Um, you know, it's it's theirs.
We've had such a different experience on Kickstarter, and I've had such a different experience doing my projects.
You know, I I've never tried to make something as ambitious as, like, a broken age or Veronica Mars project, so I don't know that, um, you know, I don't know that a lot of what I've learned is is kind of related to these problems.
You know, one thing I've been thinking about is I often give people Kickstarter advice, but usually for smaller projects for like, you know, a small game or something like that.
And I often give them the advice.
Thio, just focus, you know, very specifically.
I'm like the one creative thing they want to do.
Explain that really clearly and not try to turn it into, you know, a Veronica Mars movie.
It doesn't need to be a $1,000,000 project on dhe to just keep this scope very small and manageable because, I think for especially for smaller, more independent creators, they can really get themselves into trouble if they start trying to do like T shirts and merchandise.
And sometimes that can distract logistically like it can take their time away from the creative thing that they want to make.
That it can also distract the store from the story of the project that could become this whole sideshow.
That's not about making the creative thing that you want to make.
I think that brings me back to the point that a lot of these platforms are really about the project and the project is about the prize, and it's about the stuff that you're kind of making and distributing to the fans and the people who are supporting the project.
Where are the platforms that are kind of supporting general creative lifestyles and just kind of giving you the ability to do whatever the hell you want without having to give a T shirt or a mug or something like that?
I think that one of the glories of Kickstarter, if you've been supporting for awhile, it's the point where you look up in the world and you actually go.
I don't need another T shirt.
I don't want another mug, right.
But I think you guys are great.
I more and more these days I will support things without asking for any of the of the old town.
But, well, yeah, I mean, creators have complete creative freedom over what they want to dio.
And so what a lot of products are doing.
Is that their mimicking each other?
Uh, just saying what worked for this person?
I'll try to apply it to my thing, but you know, same as Max is exactly right again.
The average project is 85 backers about five grand.
To focus on the's $1,000,000 projects really creates a very distorted picture of what Kickstarter actually is.
Most projects you're producing like a thing that you're gonna share with other people.
When it's done and you are financing the ability for you, they'll make that thing.
It's actually very simple exchange, and people add these other elements that could become competent, complicated, I think, to try to reach a broader scale.
But ultimately, I think are probably a little self defeating.
But I think what's great about the $1,000,000 projects on the big ones is that you always wind up with people who had no idea that Kickstarter existing getting dragged in and then becoming and then, having supported a $1,000,000 project, suddenly finding, you know, some cool graffiti project or some weird little you know, going around and reciting Shakespeare Project that they now want to support as well.
You're not.
You are not a $1,000,000 projects, but I definitely agree with the anti that I see this like this'll crazy like cargo called around.
You know, sometimes that small project creators will make where they're like, Well, I just want to do this one, you know, very focused thing.
And maybe I need one or $2000.
But I'm gonna look a project that I love.
You know, I'm gonna look at at something, like, you know, double Fine Adventure or the Veronica Mars movie.
And I'm just gonna copy that structure will work for them to get a $1,000,000 so that just, you know, that just automatically must be the best structure for me.
Andi, I think that that's really not It's not the most careful thinking through of like what Kickstarter is like.
Kickstarter is this amazing creative tool you should It should fit the kind of project that you want to make.
And it should be part of the artistic expression of the thing that you're trying to do.
Yeah, and I actually, in that sense, I sometimes feel a little guilty about my Kickstarter because I barely even broke even.
I mean, going into the financials of it would make me cry.
And for you, Um but I kind of I went into it going well, you know, I have multiple income streams and the Kickstarter is gonna be this great, glorious pre order where everyone gets involved.
But I was very sloppy about it.
Being highly profitable.
I assumed that any profit I didn't make would be good karma, because it would be a really, really strong push for crowdfunding in my business and in the world and in general.
And everyone would be like, Great look at this thing.
But if any musician were to just go out and copy my Kickstarter, they'd be screwed hit they would lose so much money.
And that's an end.
Whatever you do, do not give free shipping around the way.
Know, offering on your assistant.
This is the system now accounts international shipping, they say.
One thing I would just say is that I will routinely see people.
I will see creators talk about their like a Kickstarter horror story of like And in the end I had to use, I had to make all this stuff descended people and it took all the money I raised, which of course, is precisely the point.
The point is that you're raising the money to make the thing and to distribute to all these people and there's your not in debt and you're able to make something with complete creative freedom and total control.
And that's the point that is a feature of the system, not a bug.
And so they're certainly projects that do build in profit.
And if, like a creator, personally profit from the project Talia like that, that's great for them.
But the idea that the funding that all the money that you raise goes right back into the work itself is kind of the idea, but it needs to be the work itself and not the merchandise associated with the work.
If hopefully if you're not wasting your life in your energy so frank, I'd like to throw it to you one more time and to see if you have any final thoughts about this kind of thing.
I mean, it seems like there's a lot of a lot of opinions about how to approach this type of thing.
What excites you the most about these types of platforms?
I mean, I think it's cool that as an independent artists, we have the power to engaged with fans on, and more so for my creative standpoint, like there's no one saying okay, create this sort of record or create this sort of album at the same time.
I have a question.
I don't know exactly where I'm far as potentially setting up a Kickstarter.
I don't know if I'm gonna maybe go on tour again.
Or maybe record an acoustic record, singer, songwriter or maybe lto electric record.
Who knows?
But are there any negative implications if a campaign doesn't necessarily succeed?
Or I think the problem or the mistake that a lot of creators making musicians make is they don't do what anyone could do on Kickstarter, which is make your minimum extremely low so that there's pretty much no chance that you can't succeed.
And I think what you have to do is look at the absolute worst case scenario and that's your goal, even if it's $500.
And that way your Kickstarter is guaranteed to succeed you don't you don't put a stretch a reach goal.
You put your absolute conservative minimum and you know e you have my one thing is in your video.
One ask for what you need.
Explain it unapologetically and make it short because anyone who doesn't finish watching your video isn't gonna fund you.
So a one minute great video is much better than a 15 minute one.
So here's the thing.
We could talk about this all day.
I would happily listen to all of you all day, but we're completely out of time.
So it just remains for me to thank everybody.
So much for coming for being on Skype.
We really appreciate it.
I know that's a really weird thing, but thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
And I am Helen Walton on Respected.
Yeah.
Thanks, guys.
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CREATIVE CROWDFUNDING: How The Crowd Can Help Artists Emerge and Thrive

林宜悉 2020 年 3 月 21 日 に公開
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