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  • In this episode of MarieTV we do have some adult language.

  • So if you have little ones around, grab your headphones now.

  • Hey, it’s Marie Forleo and you are watching MarieTV, the place to be to create a business

  • and life you love.

  • And you are in for such a treat today.

  • We are sitting down with one of my friends who is quickly becoming a cultural icon and

  • were gonna have a very important conversation about topics that are relevant today and for

  • the rest of your life.

  • Dr. Brené Brown is a research professor at the University of Houston where she holds

  • the Huffington Foundation Brené Brown endowed chair at the graduate college of social work.

  • Brené’s TED talk is one of the top five most viewed TED talks in the world with over

  • 30 million views.

  • She spent the past 16 years studying courage, vulnerability, shame, and empathy, and is

  • the author of three number one New York Times bestsellers: The Gifts of Imperfection, Daring

  • Greatly, and Rising Strong.

  • In addition to her writing and research, Brené is the founder and CEO of Brave Leaders, Inc.,

  • an organization that brings evidence-based courage building programs to teams, leaders,

  • entrepreneurs, and culture shifters.

  • Her latest book, Braving the Wilderness: The Quest for True Belonging and the Courage to

  • Stand Alone, is available now.

  • Brené!

  • Hi!

  • Hi!

  • Oh, my gosh.

  • I love you so much.

  • I love you too.

  • Weve wanted to do this I feel like for so long, and I’m so appreciative that you

  • said, “Girl, can you come to Texas?”

  • Did you go to Buc-ee’s?

  • I went to Buc-ee’s.

  • I made her come just – I made her come just for the ice house and the gas station.

  • I – so short aside before we get into the amazingness.

  • Okay?

  • The amazingness of this new book, which this is my galley copy and you can see guys, I

  • have all these little orange tabs in there.

  • So as an asidecome to Texas, driving around last night, I have never seen a gas

  • station so big in my life.

  • And I heard about Buc-ee’s, and I go into Buc-ee’s, and I was like this is a wonderland

  • of goodness.

  • Yeah.

  • It’s like tires, raincoats, fudge.

  • Squeaky pigs.

  • You got it.

  • And then the one thing, which I will show you guys, we might actually cut it in, is

  • a – it’s this beautiful stone piece where you put a wine bottle on top and then it’s

  • a spigot.

  • And I was like that’s the kind of gift a girl like me needs.

  • You gotta trust Buc-ee’s.

  • You gotta trust Buc-ee’s.

  • My husband and I are always waiting to see if it goes public.

  • I’m like the daywere buying in.

  • So, okay, getting to the real, real stuff.

  • I want to start, first of all, this book is incredible.

  • I texted you that it made such an impact on me.

  • I think this is the message of our time and I’m so glad were gonna get to peel into

  • it.

  • I want to start with the Maya Angelou quote that you share.

  • You are only free when you realize you belong to no placeyou belong every place

  • no place at all.

  • The price is high.

  • The reward is great.”

  • Let’s dig in with, what does true belonging mean and why this message?

  • Why now?

  • You know, Maya Angelou has been my most steadfast counselor for my entire life.

  • I discovered her probably 30 years ago when I was in college and I leaned into her work.

  • You know how when you find those people that just are unsparing and honest in their work

  • but they also bring you joy and comfort?

  • She’s that for me.

  • And I love everything she does, except for that quote.

  • That quote has pissed me off for decades.

  • And I never understood this idea that youre free when you belong nowhere.

  • And as a social scientist I know that belonging – I know this for sure.

  • Like if you ask me the one thing I know for sure, 200 thousand pieces of data, I know

  • in the absence of love and belonging there’s always suffering.

  • That I know for sure.

  • So this quote from her about belonging everywhere, which is really nowhere, is what sets us free,

  • was so troubling to me.

  • But then I starting digging in and I started trying to understand, what does it mean to

  • belong?

  • And I never thought of the concept of belonging.

  • I thought belonging was like we have a crew.

  • Like a posse.

  • Yeah.

  • A posse, a squad.

  • And belonging to something you kind of negotiate with external groups of people, but it’s

  • not.

  • What I found very quickly is the rest of that actual quote is part of an interview that

  • she did where shewith Bill Moyers where she ends up saying, you know, he ends up pushing

  • a little bit on and saying, “So are you saying that you belong nowhere and to no one?”

  • And she said, “I belong to Maya.”

  • And what I found is that true belonging is a spiritual practice and it’s about the

  • ability to find sacredness in both being a part of something but also the courage to

  • stand alone.

  • And the peoplefor those of us who struggle to have the courage to stand alone, especially

  • when we know that it riskswere risking that sense of being a part of something because

  • we disagree.

  • Yes.

  • Because we have a different opinion, because we love something different, that is the mark.

  • That’s the mark of true belonging.

  • To be able to say, “yes, I am a part of something bigger but I also will stand alone

  • when I need to.”

  • And then it was like, “Oh, shit.

  • You belong everywhere and nowhere, and that is liberation.”

  • Yeah.

  • Sobraving,” which has shown up in previous work but I feel like it’s so perfect here.

  • Can you walk us through?

  • For anyone who is not familiar with the acronym and what it means, what is braving and how

  • does this help us stay connected to ourselves and others?

  • So braving is all about trust.

  • And so probably three or four years ago in a lot of my leadership work, I probablyand

  • this is something people don't know about me.

  • I probably spend 90% of my time inside big organizations working with c-suite teams.

  • That’s what I do most of the time.

  • And so in working with leaders, one of the things that kept coming up is trust.

  • Trust building in teams.

  • Building trust in a culture.

  • The thing that’s hard about trust is if I work for you and you call me in and I’m

  • like really upset because I got passed over for a promotion and you say to me, “Look,

  • Brené, youre doing great work but there are some trust issues.”

  • The minute you say anything that I can perceive as “I am no longer trustworthy or you don't

  • trust me,” we go completely limbic.

  • We go completely out of listening with our prefrontal cortex to listening, you know,

  • to fight, flight, freeze, defend.

  • Because our trust is our integrity.

  • It’s who we are.

  • So I kept wondering, like when we talk about trust, what are we actually talking about?

  • Like, what can youwhat could you call me into your office and say to me that would

  • be more helpful, more impactful and productive thanwe have trust issuesor “I don't

  • trust you?”

  • So we dug into the data to figure out what is trust, what do we mean when we say trust?

  • And what I found are there are seven elements that were talking about when we talk about

  • trust.

  • And these are observable and measurable.

  • These are what we can talk about with each other.

  • Sobravingis the acronym we use.

  • B is boundaries.

  • You set boundaries.

  • When you don't know what they are, you ask.

  • Youre clear about what’s okay and not okay, which is, as you know, so hard for people.

  • Yeah.

  • Boundaries are really hard.

  • Reliability is the R. You do what you say and you say what you do.

  • The big, hard thing about reliability is you're not hustling for worthiness, so youre not

  • completely over committing and not delivering.

  • Yes.

  • That’s the reliability issue.

  • A is accountability.

  • You don't back-channel and blame.

  • You hold people accountable in a straightforward way.

  • V, which I think is really interesting, is the vault.

  • Oh, the vault.

  • Can we talk about the vault for a second?

  • Yeah, the vault.

  • The vault is so huge because in this culture and in this time, I say this with my friends

  • all the time.

  • Like “I’m gonna tell you something and it’s got to stay in the vault.”

  • Right.

  • It has to stay in the vault.

  • And once that goes, if anyone violates that, and I’ve had it happen before, something

  • shuts down in me.

  • Oh, it does.

  • It’s hard to come back from it.

  • What people don't understand about the vault that’s really interesting to me too is that

  • you call me in and you – “I don't understand why I got the position.”

  • You say, “look, weve got some trust issues that we need to work through.

  • Specifically I want to talk about confidentiality in the vault.”

  • And I look at you like, “Marie, I have never shared a single thing that you have told me

  • in the 10 years weve known each other.”

  • And you look back at me and say, “yes, but you come in here on a regular basis and share

  • things with me that are not yours to share.”

  • It’s the other side of confidentiality.

  • It is not only do you not talk out of school between us.

  • You don't come in here and say, “Hey, look.

  • I know what’s going on with John.

  • Blah, blah, blah.”

  • Or, “This is what’s happening with…” you know.

  • Sobecause when I do that – and I do that to get connection with you, I do that

  • as a bid for connection, let me tell you what’s going on that you don't know about.

  • But when I walk out of the office, you trust me less because I’m using stories that are

  • not mine as currency.

  • Yes.

  • So weve got the vault.

  • Then we go to I, integrity, which is choosing courage over comfort.

  • Practicing your values.

  • And this is a big one.

  • I think we have this in common, and I love this about you.

  • It’s choosing what’s right over what’s fun, fast, and easy.

  • Yeah.

  • You know, we have a culture of fun, fast, and easy.

  • We have a culture of people who don't do discomfort.

  • And that’s – I’ve never achieved a single thing in my career or life comfortably.

  • Absolutely, 100%.

  • Yeah.

  • And then we go to N for nonjudgment.

  • You can ask for help without feeling judged and I can ask for help without judging myself.

  • And then Generosity, which I think is probably the biggest, hardest one for me sometimes.

  • Which is when something happens I assume positive intent.

  • So if things go sideways between us I’m like, “Dammit, Marie.

  • I’m so pissed off.”

  • I go and say, let me assume the best.

  • Help me understand what happened, Marie.

  • I thought we had a plan around this.”

  • Yes.

  • And I give you a chance, a benefit of the doubt, before I launch into my anger.

  • Yeah.

  • I think that one’s probably the most difficult for me as well.

  • The one I can see where I instantly jump to conclusions or I can watch my mind go to the

  • worst possible scenario.

  • I did it with my family the other night.

  • Like my parents weren’t responding to a particular text and I made up this entire

  • narrative about what that meant until they were like, “Oh, we were just putting away

  • groceries.”

  • And I’m like there.

  • It happened again.

  • We do it all day every day.

  • I mean, I have a story.

  • You know, that’s human nature.

  • That’s wiring.

  • In the absence of data we will always make up stories.

  • Yes.

  • And so I think for Braving the Wilderness, the whole idea of the wilderness being those

  • times when we stand alone and those times when we go out on a limb, the times we walk

  • away from what we know, our ideological bunkers and our beliefs, braving is the tool to help

  • us manage the wilderness.

  • It’s so useful and it’s so concrete and it’s a checklist.

  • Yeah, it’s a checklist.

  • It’s like we can hold that – I can hold that for myself just to sayam I in alignment

  • with me and am I feeling good about how I’m moving through the world?”

  • And that brings me, I think one of the most impactful, and there’s so much wisdom in

  • this book, but what I want to move on to is people are hard to hate close up.

  • Move in.

  • This concept of rehumanizing not dehumanizing, it got me in the heart.

  • It got me in the gut.

  • Especially what’s happening now in our world.

  • There’s something that you wrote and I want to read it because it is the core of ways

  • that I’ve struggled in the past few years not knowing how to approach conversations,

  • not knowing how to invite people into a conversation, and to really take a hard look at my own biases

  • and my own angers and how I would like the world to be.

  • You wrote, “If you are offended or hurt when you hear Hillary Clinton or Maxine Waters